59 replies to this topic

[Colonel M]

Is there even a complete lunatic reverse playthrough out there besides paperblades?

Mine was only missing final, but Marth was good enough to 2 turn it with little problems. I just didn't record it, and then I took the Youtube videos down because I didn't feel like arguing fair use in a flimsy-written law. I didn't do Lunatic', but I plan to re-do Lunatic Mode over Spring / Summer (I'm not taking anymore chances with Accounting) and seeing if I can get Lunatic' up on Youtube as well, though I'm not making promises.

Once you have stat boosts unlocked in the base store, it's entirely feasible to get knight MU near or at 30 DEF if they stay as a cavalier/paladin/draco for most of the game.

Here's what I calculated. 2 base Def by the way.

Take into account 6 levels for Armor Knight, which makes 3 Def (50%) and 13 Levels Cavalier, which makes another 4.55 Def (35%). This makes a grand total of 9.55 Def. Assuming Level 20 Cavalier, which has 7 Base Def, this equals to 16.55, which obviously means stat boosters can make it.

Now, I'm going with DracoKnight since that's the prime class MU really should be, which is another 19 Levels with a 30% growth. That totals to 5.7, which added to the 9.55 is 15.25. Paladin has 8 base Def, which becomes 23.25. Adding the 3 Dracoshields from the shop makes 29.25. But remember the two conditions I laid out:

1) MU became 20/20, which I don't think happened even in your guide.
2) Technically DracoKnight has the easier time reaching the cap, as it has +2 base Def.

I really argue against Paladin since a lot of situations don't really call for MU to tank Mages, and the other issue I had is that, IIRC, you also threw all 3 Talismans at MU too. I'm not saying it's without a cause, but that also means you're practically dumping 15,000 Gold. Now I know that you kind of talked about having 16 Def as MU Cavalier in Chapter 3. Considering 2 base Def, the 3 Def from AK, and the 7 base Def from Cavalier, we get to 12, which means we're definitely spending 5000-7000 (pending on if MU gained two Def over two chapters) on him. With Talismans, I think I recall you buying all 3, but I can't really confirm nor deny that at this point.

I also shouldn't have to begin myriad issues that I have with AK at the beginning, and the prime suspect goes back to MU missing out on some key doubles. IIRC, we did Future as Honorable, which is +15% Spd growth. That's a 2.7 Spd increase over 6 levels. With a base Spd of 1, so 3.7. Pirate's base Spd is 8, which means there's a 30% chance (more if we take the actual calculation with it) to miss that benchmark with Rainbow Potion or Speedwing. Could you swap to Mercenary? Sure, and so can Fighter!MU too, but he's hitting the Spd at a slightly better pace. The other problem? Now if MU levels as a Mercenary, he's got 14 Atk, which misses ORKOing all of the Bandits. For durability, IIRC he's 2HKOed. He's not doing much better. And obviously Cavalier doesn't have the steadiest Spd growth in the world either...

I never once said reloading for RNG is necessary.

Okay, even if you "never once said it", you definitely hinted it with Prologue and AK!MU. I strictly recall some weird benchmarks that aren't really possible to hit with rough averages. Prologue 5 I think was the first one where you had 5 Spd AK!MU. Considering a 45% Spd growth and 1 base Spd, that's roughly 9 levels needed. I also recall 7 Spd for your AK too in P-8, which requires a grand total of 13 levels. Unfortunately I can't find what level your AK came out at... but I severely doubt it was Level 14, and I obviously doubt it was Level 14 by P-8, since I also recall Ryan used a little, and I think I remember Rody... I think.

Edited by Colonel M, 29 March 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[dondon151]

massive wall of text

Your attempts at characterizing me are way off the mark. The amount of malicious intent present in that statement of mine that you quoted is not nearly what you are making it out to be. I was not attempting to outright insult your strategies by calling them "mediocre" (especially true if you had bothered to read that I thought it was OK because you played through the game without prior knowledge), I was not trying to come off as elitist by saying that most players do not play this game seriously enough (especially true if you had bothered to read that I thought at least 98% of players wouldn't care about absolute LTC), and in fact, most people think that I am a somewhat abrasive, though helpful guy with no indication of any sort of pathological sociopathy.

If anything, this is a perfect illustration of why you are unable to take any sort of jab or even mild criticism. Thank you for proving my point. I was not aiming missiles at you, and was in fact trying keep my statements as neutral as possible, but you assumed that I was, anyway.

Edited by dondon151, 31 March 2012 - 12:51 PM.

[Tyrant Sage]

Also he actually made good on his threat of taking down his guide.

[mjemirzian]

Your attempts at characterizing me are way off the mark. The amount of malicious intent present in that statement of mine that you quoted is not nearly what you are making it out to be. I was not attempting to outright insult your strategies by calling them "mediocre" (especially true if you had bothered to read that I thought it was OK because you played through the game without prior knowledge), I was not trying to come off as elitist by saying that most players do not play this game seriously enough (especially true if you had bothered to read that I thought at least 98% of players wouldn't care about absolute LTC), and in fact, most people think that I am a somewhat abrasive, though helpful guy with no indication of any sort of pathological sociopathy.

If anything, this is a perfect illustration of why you are unable to take any sort of jab or even mild criticism. Thank you for proving my point. I was not aiming missiles at you, and was in fact trying keep my statements as neutral as possible, but you assumed that I was, anyway.

No, I accurately described your behavior towards me and other people trying to contribute to the community. Blanket denials are meaningless. You keep calling my playthroughs "mediocre", which is completely absurd. Either you don't realize how belittling and unfitting that word choice is, or you're doing it deliberately.

What criticism? You made two wrong claims, one that it takes heavy RNG to have a high DEF Paladin MU at endgame, and one that I claimed that quickload spamming was "necessary". That's not criticism, it's BS.

As neutral as possible? How ridiculous. You think "mj is entirely incapable of taking a joke or a jab and thinks that every nay-sayer is out to ruin his reputation." is neutral? You're going around claiming your personal attacks disguised as flimsy psychoanalysis are facts! Yeah, that's really neutral.

So far you've done nothing to defend yourself. You ignored my entire post, issued blanket denials, claimed your BS was "criticism", and proved you are completely out of touch with normal human behavior and what constitutes "neutral". You're a perfect example of why so few people care to contribute to a community with such noxious and aberrant personalities in it.

Okay, even if you "never once said it", you definitely hinted it with Prologue and AK!MU. I strictly recall some weird benchmarks that aren't really possible to hit with rough averages. Prologue 5 I think was the first one where you had 5 Spd AK!MU. Considering a 45% Spd growth and 1 base Spd, that's roughly 9 levels needed. I also recall 7 Spd for your AK too in P-8, which requires a grand total of 13 levels. Unfortunately I can't find what level your AK came out at... but I severely doubt it was Level 14, and I obviously doubt it was Level 14 by P-8, since I also recall Ryan used a little, and I think I remember Rody... I think.

Yes, I suggested restarting P1 and P2 for better growths because they take a minute or less to complete. That's not even quickloading, it's just restarting the chapter entirely, which I think anyone would be hard pressed to call "abuse". I did not call it necessary, just suggested. In my experience, the Lunatic' prologue ends up taking a greater number of turns if you don't have a speed blessed knight MU, because you don't have a strong point character to take damage and weaken with counters. I'm not saying it's impossible. Trying Lunatic' with a Fighter MU was like fighting with a wet paper bag, so I didn't get very far with that choice. Feel free to prove me wrong, since the prologue is the most easily accessed part of Lunatic'.

MU hit 20/20 way before anyone else on my Lunatic' playthrough. Yeah I dumped a lot of gold into him, but but the resulting ability to shrug off almost any damage is a godsend in Lunatic', especially enemy mages that you can't just one shot without taking any damage. Obviously such extreme measures wouldn't be needed in a plain Lunatic run, especially if you're using the Rainbow Potion.

There's another problem with the community's "criticism" - people are all too willing to accuse and belittle people for things they've never said, rather than bothering to go and look up whether they actually said it!

Edited by mjemirzian, 04 April 2012 - 12:20 PM.

[Lord Raven]

I think if more people sat back, took a look at themselves, and stopped with this "victim complex" bullshit we'd have a lot better discussion on this forum. Alas, I'm probably being idealistic.

Edited by Mercenary Raven, 04 April 2012 - 08:31 PM.

[LeaderR Elliot]

Please mjemirzian stop here... this discussion isn't doing you any good and certainly isn't doing Dondon any harm, some of us still have you in high regard, please >.<

[mjemirzian]

I think if more people sat back, took a look at themselves, and stopped with this "victim complex" bullshit we'd have a lot better discussion on this forum. Alas, I'm probably being idealistic.

You're stuffing a strawman trying to portray me as a victim complex hypocrite with no proof, while ignoring everything I've just said. Your post is exactly what the FE community needs less of - vapid logical fallacies, 0 proof, and rotten attitudes. We'd have a lot better discussion and more contribution if people weren't in fear that they'd get belittled and derided rather than given valid and appropriate criticism based on the conditions of their run.

Please mjemirzian stop here... this discussion isn't doing you any good and certainly isn't doing Dondon any harm, some of us still have you in high regard, please >.<

No, I will not stop telling FE elitists to stop being condescending asses who belittle anyone who doesn't play a game under the exact same conditions as them, among other poor behavior. Not only have their criticisms of my FE12 playthroughs been spiteful and condescending but they've been wrong and baseless. Or that recent speedrun that was just posted - no valid criticism based on the conditions of his run, not even a "congratulations", just lots of obnoxious behavior because he quickloaded for better RNG results. I'm sure plenty of people have made the decision I have that contributing isn't worth the grief of dealing with such people.

Edited by mjemirzian, 05 April 2012 - 12:30 AM.

[Lord Raven]

Oh look, you're stuffing a strawman trying to portray me as a victim complex hypocrite with no proof, while ignoring everything I've just said. Your post is exactly what the FE community needs less of - vapid logical fallacies, 0 proof, and rotten attitudes.

> dondon makes joke
> mjemirzian goes on long rant as a result of taking joke too seriously
> mjemirzian supposedly doesn't have a victim complex

We'd have a lot better discussion and more contribution if people weren't in fear that they'd get belittled and derided rather than given valid and appropriate criticism based on the conditions of their run.

Chill, it's a video game.

Nobody mentioned your guide either until you brought it up. Womp. Your attitude generally sucks wherever you go, and you act fairly elitist as a whole; if you don't want shit for your guides, maybe you should have a better attitude? I'm ignoring everything you've said simply because you've done much of the same shit you yourself seem to really hate. I'll list some examples now:

Yes, more "optimization" nonsense. That's the other huge problem with the FE elitists: you still wrongly think that there's only One True Way to play through a FE or other tactics game efficiently.

Read: LTC thread, where this is being argued in great detail and how the consensus is there is no One True Way to play FE. You can't generalize us all when this simply isn't true.

Your war on RNG "abuse" smacks of the inability to empathize with others.

> dondon
> war on RNG abuse

lol

but I and most people have this thing called decency.

> smugness

I know this might sound offensive, but it's rather obvious to me that you have some kind of anti-social or related issues driving your mindset of inflexibly rigid gameplay rules, inability to empathize or relate to others, and tone deaf, insulting language.

Hilariously enough, you have the following quote in your posts that makes you look like a hypocrite:

As neutral as possible? How ridiculous. You think "mj is entirely incapable of taking a joke or a jab and thinks that every nay-sayer is out to ruin his reputation." is neutral? You're going around claiming your personal attacks disguised as flimsy psychoanalysis are facts! Yeah, that's really neutral.

If you're going to find this pathetic, why did you do this yourself? >_> You pretty much ask for it with your attitude, sir. You don't see dondon whining and being self-victimizing for all the ad hominem towards him, do you?

Edited by Mercenary Raven, 05 April 2012 - 12:31 AM.

[mjemirzian]

> dondon makes joke
> mjemirzian goes on long rant as a result of taking joke too seriously
> mjemirzian supposedly doesn't have a victim complex

More strawmen and logical fallacies in 4chan greentext form. Could you possibly have stuffed a more absurd, distorted, and ridiculous strawman "sequence of events"? Thanks for exposing yourself and saving me the trouble of replying to the rest of your trolling.

[dondon151]

No, I accurately described your behavior towards me and other people trying to contribute to the community.

really, now? i don't act like a jerk towards most users who contribute to the community. certainly not any of my buddies in #feto, certainly not any of the well-respected higher-ups of this site, and realize that even though i bitched about stuff in the FE12 translation thread, i never actively antagonized the translators working on the project. no, i'm only antagonistic towards you because guess what? you're an asshat - and there's plenty of evidence for that right here.

Blanket denials are meaningless. You keep calling my playthroughs "mediocre", which is completely absurd. Either you don't realize how belittling and unfitting that word choice is, or you're doing it deliberately.

a quick perusal of the english dictionary indicated to me that "mediocre" does not necessarily mean "bad." would you have preferred it if i used "average?" "ordinary?" or maybe you would have ignored that sort of diction and claimed that i was trying to take a jab at you in an underhanded manner, anyway. i have no good faith in you when it comes to that.

What criticism? You made two wrong claims, one that it takes heavy RNG to have a high DEF Paladin MU at endgame, and one that I claimed that quickload spamming was "necessary". That's not criticism, it's BS.

i had forgotten about the base stat boosters with regards to the first point (although i don't believe that those are necessary either for a completion of H3'), and you pretty strongly encouraged save scumming to get the best level ups for armor knight MU. i was coming across some trouble in the prologue on H3 with armor knight MU and decided to look at how you did it - oh look, MU's spd is way above average. well, that doesn't help me at all.

As neutral as possible? How ridiculous. You think "mj is entirely incapable of taking a joke or a jab and thinks that every nay-sayer is out to ruin his reputation." is neutral? You're going around claiming your personal attacks disguised as flimsy psychoanalysis are facts! Yeah, that's really neutral.

do you know how to reading comprehension

"just because 98% of the players who play this game won't really care about that sort of optimization" is a concession
"plus the game hadn't been played prior to that point in time" is a concession

the point being that i thought it was okay if your strategies were not super duper amazing

but noooo instead it's "TOO MUCH CRITICISM TAKING GUIDE DOWN"

Edited by dondon151, 05 April 2012 - 02:02 AM.

[eclipse]

Here's the quote you're looking for, dondon:

Yes, I suggested restarting P1 and P2 for better growths because they take a minute or less to complete. That's not even quickloading, it's just restarting the chapter entirely, which I think anyone would be hard pressed to call "abuse". I did not call it necessary, just suggested. In my experience, the Lunatic' prologue ends up taking a greater number of turns if you don't have a speed blessed knight MU, because you don't have a strong point character to take damage and weaken with counters. I'm not saying it's impossible. Trying Lunatic' with a Fighter MU was like fighting with a wet paper bag, so I didn't get very far with that choice. Feel free to prove me wrong, since the prologue is the most easily accessed part of Lunatic'.

I am someone. I call resetting for stats "abuse". If I have problems replicating a strategy because some unit of mine decided to not gain (insert stat here), then that means I need to plan around it, not force said unit to grow into my plans.

[mjemirzian]

really, now? i don't act like a jerk towards most users who contribute to the community. certainly not any of my buddies in #feto, certainly not any of the well-respected higher-ups of this site, and realize that even though i bitched about stuff in the FE12 translation thread, i never actively antagonized the translators working on the project. no, i'm only antagonistic towards you because guess what? you're an asshat - and there's plenty of evidence for that right here.


a quick perusal of the english dictionary indicated to me that "mediocre" does not necessarily mean "bad." would you have preferred it if i used "average?" "ordinary?" or maybe you would have ignored that sort of diction and claimed that i was trying to take a jab at you in an underhanded manner, anyway. i have no good faith in you when it comes to that.


i had forgotten about the base stat boosters with regards to the first point (although i don't believe that those are necessary either for a completion of H3'), and you pretty strongly encouraged save scumming to get the best level ups for armor knight MU. i was coming across some trouble in the prologue on H3 with armor knight MU and decided to look at how you did it - oh look, MU's spd is way above average. well, that doesn't help me at all.


do you know how to reading comprehension

"just because 98% of the players who play this game won't really care about that sort of optimization" is a concession
"plus the game hadn't been played prior to that point in time" is a concession

the point being that i thought it was okay if your strategies were not super duper amazing

but noooo instead it's "TOO MUCH CRITICISM TAKING GUIDE DOWN"

Someone just posted a FE12 speedrun and you acted like an ass to them solely because you didn't like what conditions they played under. You can stop your bald faced lying now. I've never disparaged or insulted someone because they played FE in a way I didn't like. When Rainbow Pots came out, I didn't go around to everyone's playthrough that used it and started insulting them like you have. I've never falsely accused people of things they've never said, because I bother to go and look up whether they actually said it. Nor do I repeatedly made wrong or baseless criticisms about someone's playthrough. This is common decency that I and most people follow, and I'm only defending myself. Of course you have your clique where your highly rigid game rules, restricted obsessions, and anti-social behaviors are accepted as normal, but it's still revolting to most people.

You have little to no grasp of perspective or the English language if you think that word is appropriate. The Lunatic playthrough is good given the conditions it was played under. The Lunatic' playthrough is just about the best turn count you can get given the conditions it was played under - in other words, it's nearly perfect. Calling that mediocre can only be a belittling insult. And you've still failed to offer a single valid criticism or even a comparable playthrough to look at. You remain completely oblivious.

It doesn't matter that I took my guide down, does it, because you're just going to keep making up distortions and falsehoods about it. My Lunatic playthrough was with a fighter, not a knight, and I didn't do any reloading for growths on Lunatic like you're falsely accusing me of. It's the Lunatic' playthrough that I used a knight and suggested restarting the first two prologues for speed. You're still refusing to accept the playthrough on its own conditions, rather than complaining that it doesn't conform to yours and trying to trash it as a result. Complaining about restarting two prologues for growth in a single stat while chugging down rainbow pots, growth drops, and using every possible unlocked feature in a Lunatic run is being a huge hypocrite, by the way.

Your "concessions" are meaningless. You make up an imaginary percentage of players and claim that my guide is aimed towards that group of people when it's obviously not. That's an insult, not a concession. And yes the playthrough was written when the game was new, but that doesn't mean it's good or bad, it just means almost all of the strategies were my own. And you just layer onto it with even more insults! "do you know how to reading comprehension". Let's see the words you've managed to butcher thus far: "mediocre", "neutral" and "concession".

And now you're reduced to insulting strawman ALL CAPS trolling. No sane or logical person should give you any credence or respect after exposing your real behavior. I am perfectly capable of my playthroughs being criticized if taken in perspective of the conditions they were played under and given that they aren't wrong or baseless. But again, you've failed to meet any of those conditions, instead you have to invent strawmen and scream in ALL CAPS in a vain attempt to troll.

Edited by mjemirzian, 05 April 2012 - 05:19 AM.

[Lord Raven]

More strawmen and logical fallacies in 4chan greentext form. Could you possibly have stuffed a more absurd, distorted, and ridiculous strawman "sequence of events"? Thanks for exposing yourself and saving me the trouble of replying to the rest of your trolling.

Yes I could. But you are doing the same thing are you not? By saying that I am trolling, you in turn are straw manning my argument and distorting my attempt. You're acting like a child and a hypocrite. Dondon was making a joke (more satirical in nature) and you overreacted. Not hard to grasp why I felt the need to do it like that.

Amusingly enough I only did that 3 responses out of like 7 or 8, the rest were legitimate points. I don't understand how pointing why you are being a hypocrite and what exactly bugs me about you is trolling.

[Tyrant Sage]

I wonder if mjemerizianasaajerlkajfdasf is secretly insecure about his guide. As somebody who's pretty insecure himself, I can say that the behavior regarding the guide is pretty common among such people.

[Paperblade]

I'm still trying to figure out how you get away with using Level 7 units in Chapter 7

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

I'm still trying to figure out how you get away with using Level 7 units in Chapter 7

Well, in the level 7 units' defense, anybody without flying, physic, or rescue probably isn't doing shit on this chapter.

The forest isn't big enough; it should cover the entire map instead of like 80% of it.

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania, 05 April 2012 - 06:00 PM.

[mjemirzian]

>Amusingly enough I only did that 3 responses out of like 7 or 8, the rest were legitimate points.

Once you start trolling and further admit to it, nothing you say will be read or replied to seriously, as it would be a waste of time at best and feeding a troll at worst.

>I wonder if mjemerizianasaajerlkajfdasf is secretly insecure about his guide.

http://en.wikipedia....ng_the_question

[Lord Raven]

Except I wasn't trolling, I was saying that like 3 of my points were in that format and the rest were legitimate. Are you fucking serious, here? Because I'm sure every single person out there can easily construe *your* points as trolling too, if they so wanted to, considering all the personal attacks you make.

[Tyrant Sage]

>I wonder if mjemerizianasaajerlkajfdasf is secretly insecure about his guide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Wow. Why are you such a tool? I wasn't making an assertion that you were secretly insecure about your guide, I was simply wondering if you were. But instead, you chose to interpret it as a personal attack, as usual.

[Anouleth]

Someone just posted a FE12 speedrun and you acted like an ass to them solely because you didn't like what conditions they played under.

Actually, dondon acts like an ass to KoT because he doesn't like KoT. In fact, he even admits it:
"you consistently say dumb shit outside of this topic (this is the main reason btw)"