59 replies to this topic

[Aircalipoor]

Greetings,
I´m at the moment on chapter 7 on my casual lunatic playtrough and my two main cavaliers, Luke and Draug, are probably underleveld.

Luke, level 7:
25 HP, 8 Def, 9 Str, 11 Spd,

Draug, level 9:
24 HP, 7 Def, 10 Str, 13 Spd

Furthermore they are still at E/D in they weapon rangs.
At which level should they be at the moment? Should I have given them more EXP? I intend to drop them and use Frey&Cain as replacements, as they have more defense and better weapon rangs. Will Frey&Cain easily catch up or will they struggle too much? Ask for further informations, if necessary. Thanks in advance.

Edited by Aircalipoor, 15 May 2012 - 05:29 PM.

[dondon151]

just use RNG abuse it's how KoT does it

[arvilino]

You'll probably find that you'd be better off with just using one of Kain or Frey since it's a bit of a pain to try and level both of them at the same time, but either of them become better than Draug and are better than Luke at the level you've got him now. You could possibly use Minerva to replace the other one since her growths and weapon ranks are pretty good.

Edited by arvilino, 27 March 2012 - 11:20 AM.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Greetings,
I´m at the moment on chapter 7 on my casual lunatic playtrough and my two main cavaliers, Luke and Draug, are probably underleveld.

Luke, level 7:
25 HP, 8 Def, 9 Str, 11 Spd,

Draug, level 9:
24 HP, 7 Def, 10 Str, 13 Spd

Furthermore they are still at E/D in they weapon rangs.
At which level should they be at the moment? Should I have given them more EXP? I intend to drop them and use Frey&Cain as replacements, as they have more defense and better weapon rangs. Will Frey&Cain easily catch up or will they struggle too much? Ask for further informations, if necessary. Thanks in advance.

FE12 Lunatic can be very hard on leveling units -- if they start becoming underleveled, it tends to compound on itself. You may find it difficult (although doable since its a casual run) to raise Luke/Draug at this point, and will likely be better off with Frey, at least (probably Cain as well). Frey has fantastic growths and I'd definitely have him take over...probably Luke (although Draug might continue to have DEF issues all game if Cain doesn't replace him, so be aware of that). The thing about FE12 Lunatic is that almost any unit that joins past around C10 is nearly worthless and should be recruited just to strip them of the killers or silvers that they have, so you better have a pretty solid idea what your party is by then; it makes things so much easier.

Also, dondon's just...well, let's just say he disapproves. RNG abuse isn't even close to necessary unless you start going for really low turn counts (think C6 in 5 turns, C7 in 4 turns, things like that). A casual H3 run isn't going to have a ton of luck involved because hit rates are usually so high.

Oh, and one more piece of advice: Make sure you keep the SPD of your units up to par. Enemy SPD (AS) can rise pretty quickly between chapters, and if they start doubling you, you're definitely not going to be a happy camper.

[cheetah7071]

It's definitely possible to beat Lunatic even with a subpar team. In my run (no rainbow potion, no training arena, no class limits unlocked), my only really combat worthy characters were MU (Female Cav), Palla, Catria, and Merric--I never raised Luke, Shiida gained 2 points of str in 19 levels, and Sirius refused to gain speed. I had Jeorge and Minerva running around for chip damage and Mallicia and Katarina staffbotting (I decided I needed a third B-rank staff user and boy did it pay off).

The point is, the endgame will take care of itself as long as you have enough 24str/30spd swordmasters running around, and you're past the early game hump (P8-C5 in my opinion). You should be fine.

[dondon151]

no really just use RNG abuse

use savepoints, enemies have 0 luk, reset till you get those 6% crits

[Colonel M]

I'm planning to re-do the videos for this (I'm hoping soon, but I'm trying to crunch what the fuck to do with college at the moment), but whatever chapter you have I can try to help you with.

First advice is much like KoT's / mjemerzian's - just RNG abuse. Don't forget to get +Res in your level ups!

The real advice - Luke and Draug are kind of rocky, though I've had instances where Luke was a little higher (I want to say at this point he was at least Level 10) and I'm not sure on Draug (though surprised that he has D Lances. Just a little). As for the other answer to your question, you might be in trouble either way. In Lunatic... you don't have a lot of breathing space. I would only choose one of Frey or Cain if I were you, but if you're okay with restarting... go ahead. I would focus on one of the two.

tl;dr: growth units should be of small amounts aside from the usual clutches (I'm sure you know who they are by now).

[uzy5o]

You should have those kinds of levels by chapter 2 or 3. :/

Depending on what the rest of your team looks like, it's probably the easiest to just drop them without replacing them. Frey and Cain are better than your current Luke and Draug, but not by much and it will still be very difficult to raise them.

[Bluedoom]

The levels are probably a couple lower than waht they should be by now, but eh. I say you bench Draug- Even with that better AS, having a worse durability is just annoying. You're better off using one of Frey/Cain.

Yes, one of them. Because you can't really do much with growth units Also if you're using rainbow potion, it should be a lot easier to train them. Considering you're using Luke, he shouldve... reached at least C swords by now, really.

So if you do plan on using Luke, my advice is go for Frey, because he has C lances( although the peggies have that too) and he has slight more balanced growths in general, but really, you can't go wrong with either Cain or Frey, they're almost free from RNG screwage( and literally every unit that you get from now on, its just that they have bad bases.)

[The_Purple_Knight]

Luke is kinda bad for lunatic mode really should have soft reset during the prologue to give him a nice start . Draug isn't a good caviller or even a good knight draug excels as a bow user and makes a great horsemen /sniper . Otherwise he's a poor choice outside easy mode . Very few units are passable in lunatic mode , especially growth units .

[mjemirzian]

First advice is much like KoT's / mjemerzian's - just RNG abuse. Don't forget to get +Res in your level ups!

+Res in level ups? You think my guide said to RNG abuse? You don't even define what you think RNG abuse is.

Can I ever write a FE guide without obnoxious posters misrepresenting and distorting it in an attempt to mock and shit on it year(s) later? On what planet is this kind of behavior acceptable? I don't care what kind of anti-social neuroses you have, but this kind of behavior just drives people away.

I think I'm just going to delete all my FE guides. It's not worth sticking your neck out when all you get is years of grief afterward by the persistent anti-social types in the FE community.

Edited by mjemirzian, 28 March 2012 - 08:09 AM.

[Colonel M]

Well, as they jokingly say "and nothing of value was lost".

Though really I wasn't pushing the RNG abuse on your end of the stick... though I guess in a sense it is like that since we're looking for optimal level ups on My Unit...

...I'll shaddap now.

[-Cynthia-]

+Res in level ups? You think my guide said to RNG abuse? You don't even define what you think RNG abuse is.

Can I ever write a FE guide without obnoxious posters misrepresenting and distorting it in an attempt to mock and shit on it year(s) later? On what planet is this kind of behavior acceptable? I don't care what kind of anti-social neuroses you have, but this kind of behavior just drives people away.

I think I'm just going to delete all my FE guides. It's not worth sticking your neck out when all you get is years of grief afterward by the persistent anti-social types in the FE community.

I found your FE12 guide pretty useful, granted I played H2 and didn't follow a lot of it, but it's one of the only English FE12 guides out there and the game can be kind of tricky without any advice.

[Bluedoom]

I found your FE12 guide pretty useful, granted I played H2 and didn't follow a lot of it, but it's one of the only English FE12 guides out there and the game can be kind of tricky without any advice.

^seconded

[Aircalipoor]

Your guide is quite helpfull, mjemirzian. I used him for my H2 playthrough once and in my actual run, too. Sure, it´s not perfect, but if I throw your guide, the LTC tactics in Colonel M´s topic and the data material of FE WoD/ SF together, I´m fairly optimistic.

I´m currently at chapter 10 and things went smoothly so far. I droped Luke and Draug and used Frey. He is level 12 and on his average stats now. I´m also looking for using and training Minerva. Are the silence and unlock staves worthy of 2 uses of the thief staff? I would like to skip them as I have no place for one or even two thieves.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

+Res in level ups? You think my guide said to RNG abuse? You don't even define what you think RNG abuse is.

Can I ever write a FE guide without obnoxious posters misrepresenting and distorting it in an attempt to mock and shit on it year(s) later? On what planet is this kind of behavior acceptable? I don't care what kind of anti-social neuroses you have, but this kind of behavior just drives people away.

I think I'm just going to delete all my FE guides. It's not worth sticking your neck out when all you get is years of grief afterward by the persistent anti-social types in the FE community.

Anyways, I just want to say that I found your guide extremely useful in my endeavor, particularly for the early chapters; it's basically a gigantic help for anything Maniac and beyond. It doesn't go unappreciated.

As for dondon and Colonel M, they're just bashing my FE12 LTC run because...who the fuck knows why. Your name just came up as well because it looks like Colonel M hasn't given up on bad blood and thought it was safe to poke fun at you. I've met too many people who like to do that shit in my life, and they're always going to be like that; frankly, just ignore them when they do.

[dondon151]

As for dondon and Colonel M, they're just bashing my FE12 LTC run because...who the fuck knows why.

- you admitted publicly that you reset for low% criticals on what should sometimes be clean OHKOs with a proper forge but you just didn't make the forge
- you stated that critical hits are allowed to be manipulated on any 0 luk enemies (which is every non-boss enemy in the game)
- you had that ridiculous setup for recruiting michalis that is not really even statistically possible
- you consistently say dumb shit outside of this topic (this is the main reason btw)

now i agree that there is definite strategy space for strategies requiring massive amounts of RNG manipulation, and i commend you for that (as someone who also does runs with a crapload of RNG manipulation). but it's a whole 'nother thing when you say "hey gaiz i found a better strategy than dondon did but u have to crit 3 enemies at 14% and then dodge a 62% while maneuvering your penis into your mouth." and you have said something like that before. just not in this topic.

and the real beef that i have with mj's guide is that it sometimes makes assumptions that the player has had some obscene long-term RNG luck. i don't really mind his mediocre strategy recommendations just because 98% of the players who play this game won't really care about that sort of optimization (plus the game hadn't been played prior to that point in time), but i find it rather disingenuous for a supposedly well-respected resource to suggest that MU should have 30 def as a paladin, or that RNG abuse is necessary on any mode. this is compounded with the fact that mj is entirely incapable of taking a joke or a jab and thinks that every nay-sayer is out to ruin his reputation.

Edited by dondon151, 28 March 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[Anouleth]

- you stated that critical hits are allowed to be manipulated on any 0 luk enemies (which is every non-boss enemy in the game)

All non-recruitable bosses also have 0 luck, so it's more like every enemy in the game that he wasn't planning on killing anyway.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

- you admitted publicly that you reset for low% criticals on what should sometimes be clean OHKOs with a proper forge but you just didn't make the forge
- you stated that critical hits are allowed to be manipulated on any 0 luk enemies (which is every non-boss enemy in the game)
- you had that ridiculous setup for recruiting michalis that is not really even statistically possible
- you consistently say dumb shit outside of this topic (this is the main reason btw)

1) I believe in honesty when I do a run; I'd rather people judge the run for what it is instead of promoting it as something it's not. I'm not bragging or anything, I want to make clear exactly what is required in a run like that. And I can think of one time (maybe two) where I could get a OHKO with a reasonable forge, and that was the C11 boss; there was also a situation where Palla/Sirius failed to double without the RP (C12), so a few killer crits were necessary. I ended up with a nearly empty convoy and broke by the end of the game, and that was with getting every Bullion(L) possible, simply because of the sheer number of base arena'ing and purchased statboosters; there weren't very many forges I could afford even if I wanted to.

2) This point was mainly a clarification on prologue, where there are no killer weapons available. It was meant to say that I don't force crits on units like Luke, Rody, and Athena because I didn't want to face the 1-2% crits; A) because it kind of reeked of RNG abuse and B) because you're essentially forced to manipulate Merc!MU's levels since way too much offense in prologue is reliant on him and forcing a level RIGHT after those 1-2% crits is stupid low odds. In fact, the vast majority of the crits I forced were with killers, the Wo Dao, and the Master Sword, and was heavily late game, where crit chances ranged from 40-50%. I can think of about 3-4 times over the entire run where I've forced sub-10% crits and about 5 times where I forced 15-20% crits (3 times with Gradivus, 2 times with rapier). As Anouleth said, basically every enemy in the main story has 0 LUK.

3) The whole point of the run was to see how fast H3 COULD be done (or well, how fast I could get it done). You have to admit that Michealis thing was kind of clever; it took me long enough to come up with, and I'm proud of the strat.

4) We disagree on some things; that doesn't mean I'm wrong. I honestly pull back any arguments I made on the Meg thread (although I still think she gets too bad of a rap as a unit because she's ugly; second worst unit in the game is a bit harsh, especially when you have some rather terrible units in FE10), and tbh that thread blew up and got stupid silly fast.

now i agree that there is definite strategy space for strategies requiring massive amounts of RNG manipulation, and i commend you for that (as someone who also does runs with a crapload of RNG manipulation). but it's a whole 'nother thing when you say "hey gaiz i found a better strategy than dondon did but u have to crit 3 enemies at 14% and then dodge a 62% while maneuvering your penis into your mouth." and you have said something like that before. just not in this topic.

No, I've said (or at the very least meant to say) that I've found a way to get faster turncounts than you, but then made sure to say that it requires X, Y, and Z to work. I'm not trying to one-up you or even give that impression; it was mostly just me being happy I managed to shave a few turn counts in my LTC run, where obviously every turn counts, rather than me going "HERP DERP IM BETTER THAN DONDON". I had to use the turn counts of you and SDS as a baseline for what to beat or at least tie; I obviously can't have a legitimate LTC run where I can't manage to tie your turn counts even while using more RNG manipulation (a good example of this in C4, where I found that 7 turn clears are about as fast you can reliably clear it, but 5 turn clears are possible with Marth dodging one of two 80% hit rates and critting with the rapier the next turn).

Also, with basically every non-FE12 turn count you post, it's basically a 0% growth run versus a LTC run; they're not even comparable, and I wouldn't even try to match the turn count from one to that of another. Playing FE6 HM, I know that doing a 196 (right?) turn count clear with 0% growths is obviously very impressive, even though it looks like it is possible to shave 10-20 turns more in a LTC run.

and the real beef that i have with mj's guide is that it sometimes makes assumptions that the player has had some obscene long-term RNG luck. i don't really mind his mediocre strategy recommendations just because 98% of the players who play this game won't really care about that sort of optimization (plus the game hadn't been played prior to that point in time), but i find it rather disingenuous for a supposedly well-respected resource to suggest that MU should have 30 def as a paladin, or something like that. this is compounded with the fact that mj is entirely incapable of taking a joke or a jab and thinks that every nay-sayer is out to ruin his reputation.

He has a complete guide to FE12, complete with proper screenshots, his posted turn counts, and what he needed to make the strat work. I think most/much of the time he did the 30 DEF pally assumption was on Lunatic', right? I can definitely see a much better case for assuming a high DEF MU in H4, considering how ridiculous it can get at times because there's no way to avoid enemy damage with strong 1-range attacks on PP. Either way, I understand why it rubs you the wrong way, but it's not like he's condoning the behavior; the guide is intended to give you a possible way to approach each chapter and to give at least a basic insight, not to preach how to play FE12 or to claim to be the expert on all things New Mystery of the Emblem. Obviously, you didn't insult his guide, and I'm not accusing you of that, but rather saying WHY I have little problem with him doing that.

In other words, it was simply an act of charity on his end, and I can see why mj got offended if somebody slipped an insult unprovoked about his guide in a completely unrelated advice thread years after it was written (now, I don't know him very well, and if he constantly plays the victim, it might be different, but I don't get that impression); hell, I'm not even bothered by most things, but being insulted like I was in this thread rubbed me a bit the wrong way, not because you or Colonel M disapprove of the run (or that you dislike me), but rather that it seems like you have to mock it (or me) in a sneaky and underhanded way.

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania, 28 March 2012 - 04:58 PM.

[mjemirzian]

and the real beef that i have with mj's guide is that it sometimes makes assumptions that the player has had some obscene long-term RNG luck. i don't really mind his mediocre strategy recommendations just because 98% of the players who play this game won't really care about that sort of optimization (plus the game hadn't been played prior to that point in time), but i find it rather disingenuous for a supposedly well-respected resource to suggest that MU should have 30 def as a paladin, or that RNG abuse is necessary on any mode.

Once you have stat boosts unlocked in the base store, it's entirely feasible to get knight MU near or at 30 DEF if they stay as a cavalier/paladin/draco for most of the game. Even more so if you have Rainbow Potion and Growth Drops, which I didn't even use in my playthrough. I never once said reloading for RNG is necessary. And of course you wouldn't respect my guide when you have no concept of respect in the first place.

Calling my strats "mediocre" is belittling and ridiculous. You have no basis of comparison to call them mediocre. There's not even a lunatic or lunatic reverse with similar or the same playthrough conditions as mine to compare to. Is there even a complete lunatic reverse playthrough out there besides paperblades? Mediocre would imply they're pedestrian with little thought put into them and no challenge conditions, just trying to get by, etc. which is entirely wrong. My playthroughs were challenge runs with a more difficult set of conditions than any other FE12 run I've seen documented in detail. The Lunatic reverse run considered almost every turn. Most people don't even attempt to complete that mode, let alone do a challenge run of it. Yet it's "mediocre" according to you - a complete failure in perspective and use of the English language. That's like calling a FE5 SS run "mediocre" because it wasn't an SSS.

Yes, more "optimization" nonsense. That's the other huge problem with the FE elitists: you still wrongly think that there's only One True Way to play through a FE or other tactics game efficiently. When you start talking about "optimization", you aren't talking about the conditions I played under, but the conditions you consistently try to impose on everyone else, lest they face you and your elitist's insulting and obnoxious behavior. What if your "optimizations" rely on getting punch drunk on Rainbow Potions or having access to store stat boosts? Well of course you're going to insult and deride it's strategies as "mediocre" even though it explicitly said it doesn't use those features, because there's only One True Way to play FE.

You have no right to insult people's playthroughs because they do things you don't like. People can play games under whatever conditions they want without fear of you and other elitists. Your war on RNG "abuse" smacks of the inability to empathize with others. It's entirely possible to discuss someone's playthrough conditions and the amount of skill involved in them without behaving the way that you do. I could go around calling your playthroughs low skill noob runs because half of your army is drunk on Rainbow Potions for the entirety of the game and your Lunatic runs have every feature including base store stat boosts unlocked, and that you don't try to recruit everyone or grab difficult item drops from fleeing thieves, but I and most people have this thing called decency. I know this might sound offensive, but it's rather obvious to me that you have some kind of anti-social or related issues driving your mindset of inflexibly rigid gameplay rules, inability to empathize or relate to others, and tone deaf, insulting language.

this is compounded with the fact that mj is entirely incapable of taking a joke or a jab and thinks that every nay-sayer is out to ruin his reputation.

Ad hominem strawman bull. Your "jokes" are rude and flat, and you're one of the worst offenders when it comes to the kind of behavior I and others are sick of. All you've managed to do is expose yourself as insulting, wrong, and belittling with little to no reason or logic to back up anything you've said.