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Rate the Unit, Day 27: Fir


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#41 Colonel M

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 07:49 PM

There are many units who consistently fail to ORKO, so don't hold it against Fir just because she can bring many enemy units down to single-digit HP with a mere Iron Sword.

I never knew she could ORKO with Iron Sword a Wyvern Knight.

But the issue is were focusing on the 2 and a half chapters where axe users ate common. After Chapter 12x, she's in the shit box. Go read my debate against Inui on Lot vs Fir. She's total shit on the Cavaliers, and it doesn't get significantly better against the Wyvern Knights. Then, we have a little Lance-happy enemies or Swords, which means she's either at equals or at a disadvantage. Her returns after the islands and before promotion is pretty piss poor. It's better than some units like Oujay, but that's why I gave her an actual 4.0 (remember that I did throw in the bias vote, but Inui is the boy to glare at).

Like someone said above, her above average Spd gets a knife once Steel Swords come into play. And she's not always bringing enemies to single digit HP. With WTA, she has 15 Atk, and Fighters sport well over 30 HP. She still will fail a lot to ORKO with Steel Sword too, and her Avoid is cut by 10. Her durability is purely reliant on dodge, and units like Rutger and even Dieck exceed her in that department. Then you have units like Lot and Marcus who can take more than two swings.

The worst issue is that axe units aren't the only units. They're abundant, but you have sticky situations like the Ballistae in Chapter 10, and Shamans and Mercenaries are still around. She obviously has no WTA there. If she wields Steel and the Fighters have Iron Axes or Hand Axes she won't double them with it. With Fir you're playing Russian Roulette with Axe users... And the rest is merely history.

And it's not as if Fir is going to be the only unit on the field - she will be taking some enemies on alone, as well as finishing off units that have already been damaged.

If you've read any of my posts closely, you will know for a fucking fact that she cannot take on enemies alone without playing into RNG hands. Fir is not Mia. Mia is able to do what she does dodging because she doesn't face an unreal number of enemies and Ike is often close to give the +Avo support. And finishing enemies? Come on, even Wendy can finish off Archers, but we aren't crediting her for that.

Just because Rutger is better when Fir joins, that's no reason to stamp Fir into the dirt. This whole thing should be done on Fir, and Fir alone. Comparing units to other units in their topics really skews the whole thing up.

The issue is, outside of boss killing and some minor utility functions, even Rutger isn't always hot stuff. He's gimped by not having a horse, he fails to ORKO a lot of enemies without criticals, and some like Wyvern Lords take 2, he lacks 2 range, he actually has shoddy durability, and his CEV is questionable. He's there primarily as a boss killer first, and as a secondary combat unit. He's awesome no doubt, but he has disadvantages that are pretty up there that are mostly forgiven by killing bosses.

Again, Fir is far from durable, she is almost constantly 2HKOed barring scrubs, has to work with either Iron or Steel which means not doubling or not ORKOing or both! She isn't "good" until she promotes, and even at that point she's a rough unit.

I'm not saying she completely blows. She has prominent advantages, but other units brag utility at little to no cost or are just good. She's purely a growth unit that takes babying, almost to the extreme, to even reach "par" with your other bad asses. And you gave her a fucking 8!

Edited by Colonel M, 31 March 2012 - 08:35 AM.


#42 Esaka

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 07:53 PM

Fir...

RNG screwage ahoy!

Seriously 25%... meh. It'd be alright, but she has to compete with Rutger and Dieck, heck even Gonzales for dat crest. She supports Bartre and he's great...but Echidna route.

3.5/10

#43 dondon151

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:19 PM

As it should be, as it is. Haven't been watching this thread.

dondon, put more words in please

dude, i've been putting in that many words into every single previous rating and no one has given me shit for it

my credentials should already be justification enough. seriously, fuck narga for being a whistleblower

Edited by dondon151, 30 March 2012 - 08:23 PM.


#44 Thor Odinson

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:21 PM

Exactly. Its why its a separate score altogether. Its how ive been doing it since the very beginning. Because the real worth of a unit is often lower or higher than my opinion of them. :):


Fair enough. I probably missed that somewhere, then.

Edited by Luminescent Blade, 30 March 2012 - 08:22 PM.


#45 Raven

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:57 PM

I never knew she could with Iron Sword a Wyvern Knight.

But the issue is were focusing on the 2 and a half chapters where axe users ate common. After Chapter 12x, she's in the shit box. Go read my debate against Inui on Lot vs Fir. She's total shit on the Cavaliers, and it doesn't get significantly better against the Wyvern Knights. Then, we have a little Lance-happy enemies or Swords, which means she's either at equals or at a disadvantage. Her returns after the islands and before promotion is pretty piss poor. It's better than some units like Oujay, but that's why I gave her an actual 4.0 (remember that I did throw in the bias vote, but Inui is the boy to glare at).

Like someone said above, her above average Spd gets a knife once Steel Swords come into play. And she's not always bringing enemies to single digit HP. With WTA, she has 15 Atk, and Fighters sport well over 30 HP. She still will fail a lot to ORKO with Steel Sword too, and her Avoid is cut by 10. Her durability is purely reliant on dodge, and units like Rutger and even Dieck exceed her in that department. Then you have units like Lot and Marcus who can take more than two swings.

The worse issue is that axe units aren't the only units. They're abundant, but you have sticky situations like the Ballistae in Chapter 10, and Shamans and Mercenaries are still around. She obviously has no WTA there. If she wields Steel and the Fighters have Iron Axes or Hand Axes she won't double them with it. With Fir you're playing Russian Roulette with Axe users... And the rest is merely history.

If you've read any of my posts closely, you will know for a fucking fact that she cannot take on enemies alone without playing into RNG hands. Fir is not Mia. Mia is able to do what she does dodging because she doesn't face an unreal number of enemies and Ike is often close to give the +Avo support. And finishing enemies? Come on, even Wendy can finish off Archers, but we aren't crediting her for that.

The issue is, outside of boss killing and some minor utility functions, even Rutger isn't always hot stuff. He's gimped by not having a horse, he fails to ORKO a lot of enemies without criticals, and some like Wyvern Lords take 2, he lacks 2 range, he actually has shoddy durability, and his CEV is questionable. He's there primarily as a boss killer first, and as a secondary combat unit. He's awesome no doubt, but he has disadvantages that are pretty up there that are mostly forgiven by killing bosses.

Again, Fir is far from durable, she is almost constantly 2HKOed barring scribe, has to work with either Iron or Steel which means not doubling or not ORKOing or both! She isn't "good" until she promotes, and even at that point she's a rough unit.

I'm not saying she completely blows. She has prominent advantages, but other units brag utility at little to no cost or are just good. She's purely a growth unit that takes babying, almost to the extreme, to even reach "par" with your other bad asses. And you gave her a fucking 8!

I won't deny anything you're saying, however I do know that with babying and being careful, she can (and always has been through my experiences) been a good, reliable unit once the initial training is passed.

As with any unit, it's just placing the unit in the right situation to deal with the appropriate threats. Fir's speed growth is good enough so that she can double a lot more than just Steel Axe enemies with a Steel Sword in due time. The Wo Dao alone should allow her to obtain about 4 levels, considering her high rate of growth. Throw in a couple of boss kills, I've had her promoted by the time Ch.13 rolls around. Babying indeed, but the reward is that you've got one hell of a unit at your disposal. Promotion alone gives her +3 AS, and is most definitely by then doubling many enemies even with a Steel Sword. So yes, I did give her a "fucking 8". I was considering 8.5, but I thought 8 is high enough.

Edited by Raven, 30 March 2012 - 08:57 PM.


#46 Narga_Rocks

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:06 PM

dude, i've been putting in that many words into every single previous rating and no one has given me shit for it

my credentials should already be justification enough. seriously, fuck narga for being a whistleblower

You're welcome :P:

Seriously, though, a lot of times you give at least something. You often put in one short sentence and I don't complain because you at least say something relevant. Merely stating that other people overrate her is not a justification. How about "frail and takes too much babying". At least that'd be something.

#47 Exiledwolf

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:32 PM

Fir.. Another sword user in a game were swords are actually better than axes?

Anywho she has a shaky start even though at the axe island paradise. Strength growth hurts and more chance to be RNG screwed...

Rutger lite gets 4.5/10

#48 Furetchen

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 11:04 PM

25% strength growth. 15% defence growth. Added all up that makes for a solid 40%. So... 4, but 3 because fuck myrmidons, seriously, I mean I know they're good and her bases are good but really she's just bad after a while

... I am slightly impressed that Fir is a level 1 myrmidon that joins midgame and has a short ride on her bases before just failing at everything completely.

#49 Ardan

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 11:45 PM

I won't deny anything you're saying, however I do know that with babying and being careful, she can (and always has been through my experiences) been a good, reliable unit once the initial training is passed.



you remind me of those guys on youtube/gamefaqs who love their growth units. I find it interesting you only gave wendy 5%, considering I've heard of multiple accounts saying she is great when trained. Seems right up your alley.

#50 eclipse

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 12:12 AM

I'll agree with dondon and say that's she's overrated. I'll even expound on why.

Her bases are great for level 1, but her Strength is expected to grow once every four levels, if the RNG's being fair. Guy has enough problems with his 30% Strength growth; Fir's in an even iffier situation. Axes are mainly in the Western Isles; after that, it's stuff that isn't axes, and Fir doesn't appreciate that. Oonce the Wo Dao's gone, she's not doing impressive damage (or if she is, she's sacrificing her AS). Her affinity's nice, but her support partners are Rutger (whose affinity doesn't exactly help with raw damage output), some guy on a horse, her dad (see Rutger), Shin (not only is he on a horse, he doesn't help with damage output), and Karel (the affinity she wants to support with, but WAY too late). It's like Guy, but with less levels, less time, worse support list and female.

3.5/10

#51 Onmi

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 12:35 AM

you remind me of those guys on youtube/gamefaqs who love their growth units. I find it interesting you only gave wendy 5%, considering I've heard of multiple accounts saying she is great when trained. Seems right up your alley.


Keep in mind we don't have to rate on Efficiency/LTC, so he's perfectly entitled to say "Is good when a Swordmaster"

Keep in mind I gave her the same rating as Dondon, 4/10

#52 Pitbuller26

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 01:29 AM

I guess voting on how you like is too much to ask, vote (supposedly)wrong and you get a whole essay about it.

#53 eclipse

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 02:01 AM

I guess voting on how you like is too much to ask, vote (supposedly)wrong and you get a whole essay about it.


It's to explain the logic behind your vote. Some people want an essay's worth of logic; other people can sum it up in two sentences.

#54 Furetchen

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 02:30 AM

Keep in mind I gave her the same rating as Dondon, 4/10

overrated as all fuck 2/10

okay

#55 Raven

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:12 AM

you remind me of those guys on youtube/gamefaqs who love their growth units. I find it interesting you only gave wendy 5%, considering I've heard of multiple accounts saying she is great when trained. Seems right up your alley.

I really would give her a try. But I know a lost cause when I see one. Especially in Hard Mode, Wendy is beyond a lost cause, and I gave the 0.5 because she can at least triangle attack if a player so wishes... Near impossible to raise because of her rubbish bases, rubbish hit rate (lances are not very reliable to begin with), rubbish evade, and to triangle attack Bors, another pretty fail unit, must be deployed too. Cannot raise effectively because of the shitstorm of an axefest that appears over the next few chapters she is recruited.

Fir isn't a lost cause and as I said, the rewards for raising her are pretty phenomenal, and I'd be willing to bet that many people voting her below a 5 have not even tried raising her anything past a Myrmidon.


#56 Onmi

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:15 AM

okay


I swear that was 2 higher when I saw it last.

Also @ Raven

I used her just fine last HM run. But PEMN when I'm giving my honest opinion about her
Posted Image

My freaking ROY from that run pretty much looked like this all game, that didn't mean Roy deserved an 8
Posted Image
Though he certainly wanted it

Edited by Onmi, 31 March 2012 - 03:24 AM.


#57 Levant Fortner

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 04:03 AM

[color="#FF0000"]I really would give her a try. But I know a lost cause when I see one. Especially in Hard Mode, Wendy is beyond a lost cause, and I gave the 0.5 because she can at least triangle attack if a player so wishes... Near impossible to raise because of her rubbish bases, rubbish hit rate (lances are not very reliable to begin with), rubbish evade, and to triangle attack Bors, another pretty fail unit, must be deployed too. Cannot raise effectively because of the shitstorm of an axefest that appears over the next few chapters she is recruited.

I did mention the triangle attack, but didn't feel it was deserving of any points because in all likelihood, it isn't happening.

#58 Raven

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 04:37 AM

I gave my score based on the fact I always baby the shit out of her, and she always overtakes Rutger in ability to actually stay alive throughout a chapter. Favouritism in a sense, but it's what makes these RTU topics interesting.

#59 Integrity

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 05:51 AM

dude, i've been putting in that many words into every single previous rating and no one has given me shit for it

my credentials should already be justification enough. seriously, fuck narga for being a whistleblower


Actually, in dead seriousness most of the time you put in a short, relevant sentence (cavalier but still kinda shitty) and I take it on the grounds of your credentials. This one was even lower than those.

Anyway, tallying. I'm going to give your 2 a pass but, seriously dude, if I ask for more shit just give me more shit next time. It's hard enough to deal with people like Whase and Kanjichick without this.

EDIT:

I guess voting on how you like is too much to ask, vote (supposedly)wrong and you get a whole essay about it.


Oh for FUCK'S sake haven't I gone over this bullshit enough already? Kindly go die.

Edited by Integrity, 31 March 2012 - 05:55 AM.


#60 Baldrick

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 05:56 AM

All you people saying Fir is a mini-Rutger are wrong.

She IS Rutger. Seriously, compare their stats at any given level. She basically has luck and res in exchange for def (hp and def after promotion). Her more viable supports are countered by the effectiveness of his. They're almost the same.

HOWEVER, he joins at level 4 in chapter 4, she joins at level 1 in chapter 9. That's hardly ideal for her. In fact, it's distinctly unideal. She needs favourism to survive between axeland and promotionland, but if she gets it, you have a unit potentially as devastating as Rutger on your hands.

5/10




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