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Golden Sun Mafia


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#741 BigPlaysMeteor

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 09:48 PM

Also, if their in-game effects are any indication, it's entirely possible that one Guardian will be immune to roles and/or Djinn abilities.

#742 eclipse

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 10:02 PM

This kind of activity is horrid. Talk, dammit.

I have no idea what a character claim is supposed to accomplish, short of giving hints to everyone about what they do. The town pool looks pretty random, IMO.

Furthermore, this is C3, and there's gotta be something more than people claiming PRs. . .right? Sorry that I can't help with that part, but my role isn't exactly suited for that.

I'd love to go into this further, but my mom's here. I should be back by tomorrow night (I hope).

#743 Shinori

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 10:11 PM

I am actually fine with character claiming if we did that. The only issue with it is yes we might be able to find out who a mafia member or two are BUT if the lighthouses are lit by certain characters dieing then we have to be wary of this when our characters are claiming, mafia could focus the people they need for the lighthouses. They might not know anything about them as well, but there is also the chance that they know alot more than us when it comes to that situation.

But considering the last two characters had stuff blanked out of their role to be unreadable, i'm assuming that lighting the lighthouses does have to do with specific characters and is not a random occurence.

#744 Kay

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 10:28 PM

It's possible that the person didn't have the ability to choose who it would be redirected at.


You know, that is actually a really good point. Dazzler would definitely fit.

Can someone tell me what a Martyr does?



I think this is a good idea. Actually, I was going to suggest for a mass-character claim, but I think Kay's idea works better. BTW, I think it was Kaoz who suggested the 10 town / 5 mafia, but it's probably more likely that it's 10 / 4 / 1 or 11 / 4, since (my Golden Sun canon knowledge is pretty good, but someone else more familiar like BBM can clarify), but there are four guardians IIRC? IDK why he was talking numbers in the first place, but just wanted to point that out for those not familiar with Golden Sun canon.


Targets one person, redirects everything hitting them to itself.

I have no idea what a character claim is supposed to accomplish, short of giving hints to everyone about what they do. The town pool looks pretty random, IMO.


Well, if the mafia doesn't have safeclaims, they'll need to risk being counterclaimed, in which case it should be easier to figure out which of two people is more likely to be mafia. Either way, those hints will also limit what they can claim later on. And while the town pool might be pretty random, I expect it's not totally random. Isaac is still a riskier claim than Feizhi.

You have any better ideas, Clipsey?

When you say character claim, you mean the name of the character, and not the role, right? I'm okay with the former.


Right. Just the character. No details about your role/ability or Djinn or anything like that.

I am actually fine with character claiming if we did that. The only issue with it is yes we might be able to find out who a mafia member or two are BUT if the lighthouses are lit by certain characters dieing then we have to be wary of this when our characters are claiming, mafia could focus the people they need for the lighthouses. They might not know anything about them as well, but there is also the chance that they know alot more than us when it comes to that situation.

But considering the last two characters had stuff blanked out of their role to be unreadable, i'm assuming that lighting the lighthouses does have to do with specific characters and is not a random occurence.


I think the lighthouses being lit would have to be caused by something bigger than just single characters dying. Otherwise they would all be lit really fast, don't you think? Besides, aren't the blanked out parts of the role PMs just spoilers? Since it's only in the flavor, I doubt it has anything to do with gameplay...


Anyway, I suggest that everyone order all players in the game, with the obvious exception of themselves, from least to most likely to be mafia. It would be useful if we do decide on popcorn claiming, and if not, it's still discussion.

As for mine:

Manix
Joshaymin/Aurora
Shinori
Strawman/StrawSloththeSawSlothStraw
BigBangMeteor
Iris~
Clipsey!/eclipse
Snike/Paperblade
Spike
Kaoz/Ether

Despite my placing Manix at the top of the list, I think he should claim his character if he doesn't think it will give away any more details of his role. There can't be that many Golden Sun characters who would be likely to be revivers, and IIRC he said that was his actual role, not a Djinn. So that ought to help ascertain his alignment, no?

#745 BigPlaysMeteor

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 10:46 PM

Shinori
Kay
Aurora
Eclipse
Iris
Strawman
Spike
Manix
Snike
Kaoz

That's how my list goes... Should I start it off, or should someone who's lower down on the list start, like Kaoz or Snike?

#746 Curly Brace

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:26 AM

Okay, cause I'm willing to character claim: I'm Garet.

My knowledge of Golden Sun is very limited (like, I haven't played the games before), but from what I can gather: Naturally, I can't revive people. But, through Role PM flavor: I've read the Tomegathericon (which changes someone to the Dark Mage class series, which eventually can revive people.), which granted me the capacity to revive people. Other fun facts (and those that need repeating):

- I can revive anyone, but only one at once
- Reviving occurs at the end of the phase
- I can choose whether to keep them alive or not.
- Previous omission: When I die, whoever I have revived dies with me.

Okay, let's review quickly: I doubt there's a mafia redirecter. Because 1) They would have redirected to Marth (unless it's random), and 2) I can terminate Marth whenever I want. Which would be immediately. (That doesn't rule out the possibility of a Dazzler, as Kay said)

#747 Curly Brace

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:33 AM

itt: I explode your heads

#748 eclipse

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:58 AM

Something is bugging me about the failure (I believe your role, Manix). Like, why make the failure silent? And how badly will whatever that caused you to fail screw with everything else?

Also, the popcorn list goes the other way 'round, Kay. If you're convinced that this'll catch mafia, then you have the scummiest people go first, so you don't give the town ideas on who's who. Also, how do you know that the mafia doesn't have fakeclaims? If they do, all you're doing is giving them a town roll call. . .something that I can't see benefiting the town, while telling the mafia who not to claim.

##Vote: Kay

I'm sorry, this, combined with your hit-and-run posting style comes off as extremely scummy.

#749 eclipse

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:59 AM

Dammit, wording.

If you're convinced that this'll catch mafia, then you have the scummiest people go first, so you don't give the town ideas on who's who.


That's supposed to say "give the mafia ideas on who's who".

#750 Kaoz

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:04 AM

Why the fuck would a martyr be on Prims' corpse?


The point was a Redirector that could redirect to an invalid target, but not to Marth.

But it's a worse move as mafia. He said wanted to clear himself by reviving Prims, and didn't want to deal with a counterclaim. This kinda makes sense. I mean, it's not great, but he is new. Why would he claim as mafia if he was going to revive Marth?


Maybe he thought it'd be worth taking a risk and hoped that it would turn out exactly how it does right now?

It's also reasonably likely that roles like a Doctor would target someone else to WIFOM, and keeping them off of townies wouldn't be worth claiming a role like that and then being unable to prove it.


You could argue that way.

Considering cases like that? Sure, great, it's good to do that. Trying to lynch someone based on them? That sounds pretty foolish to me.


Normally I would be inclined agree with you. But under the given circumstances, you guys did very little work throughout the rest of the cycle and I had like 15 hours to get anything done with the general activity for half that time being not exactly great. In that situation, I find it reasonable for me to talk with one of the few people that were actually there.

I will freely admit that it doesn't look too good, but as I said, I didn't have too many choices in that situation and I refuse to just sit here and do nothing, so I went with what I thought would be the best course of action for that time.

You will also notice that I was very much willing to concede the point and talk about alternatives here when activity started to pick up.

Anyway, I suggest that everyone order all players in the game, with the obvious exception of themselves, from least to most likely to be mafia. It would be useful if we do decide on popcorn claiming, and if not, it's still discussion.


Shinori
Manix
Strawman
JB
BBM
eclipse
Kay
Snike
Iris
Spike

Something like this I guess. There are a few that could switch, but it probably wouldn't be too helpful to have slashed entries for this.

I'll kick things off once a few more lists have been posted and I'm on the bottom of the majority of them, assuming not too many people disagree with the claiming process.

#751 Kay

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:19 AM

Something is bugging me about the failure (I believe your role, Manix). Like, why make the failure silent? And how badly will whatever that caused you to fail screw with everything else?

Also, the popcorn list goes the other way 'round, Kay. If you're convinced that this'll catch mafia, then you have the scummiest people go first, so you don't give the town ideas on who's who. Also, how do you know that the mafia doesn't have fakeclaims? If they do, all you're doing is giving them a town roll call. . .something that I can't see benefiting the town, while telling the mafia who not to claim.

##Vote: Kay

I'm sorry, this, combined with your hit-and-run posting style comes off as extremely scummy.


I know that, Eclipse. It's just the order I happened to put the list in. I didn't think the order was that relevant, since I had said before that I thought the people who were most suspicious should claim characters. I wasn't trying to say Manix should claim first. And I'm not convinced it'll catch mafia. I think it might catch mafia, just like anything else. Besides, it was just an idea I suggested to see what people thought of it. Most people seemed okay with it. All I'm actually telling anyone to do is say who they think is most suspicious.

Hit-and-run?


That's how my list goes... Should I start it off, or should someone who's lower down on the list start, like Kaoz or Snike?


Someone lower, definitely. There's no reason you need to claim at all, at least not now, IMO.

#752 eclipse

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:02 AM

Here's an example:

Post the first
Reply, because Manix is a boss
Next post I can find by you, and sorry if I screwed it up

Just questions, with no follow-up. Come to think of it, you claimed a post restriction on C1, too, and I felt things were disjointed then, too, so sorry.

I reread everything, and I didn't care too much for the way you came across on C2 (pushing BBM with very little reason, IMO). I still don't think forcing people to character claim is the right way to go about things. I'd much rather people make their scumlists with their own night results in mind, as opposed to a mass character claim which will probably end up giving the mafia more information than the town can use.

#753 Kay

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 04:22 AM

Here's an example:

Post the first
Reply, because Manix is a boss
Next post I can find by you, and sorry if I screwed it up

Just questions, with no follow-up. Come to think of it, you claimed a post restriction on C1, too, and I felt things were disjointed then, too, so sorry.

I reread everything, and I didn't care too much for the way you came across on C2 (pushing BBM with very little reason, IMO). I still don't think forcing people to character claim is the right way to go about things. I'd much rather people make their scumlists with their own night results in mind, as opposed to a mass character claim which will probably end up giving the mafia more information than the town can use.


Follow-up to questions? They're generally either rhetorical, or I just want to know why people are doing or saying things. If I don't have a problem with their answer, I probably won't say anything, particularly if I have to wait hours to post "yeah, that sounds reasonable and not suspicious". I'm not sure I understand what you mean, sorry.

If me pushing BBM was unreasonable, why does Kaoz seem okay to you? Okay, that's fine. But isn't it good to post a scumlist of some sort anyway? I can't really tell who you suspect at all this phase besides me.

I'm not suggesting a mass character claim. I'm suggesting a few people claim.

#754 eclipse

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 05:38 AM

It's not that Kaoz is suspicious of Manix. Hell, here's what I said about him:

Kaoz - Doesn't seem to trust anything, which is par for the course.


While I'm not particularly fond of his tunneling, he let the thing slide since then (if I'm reading right, he doesn't have a vote anywhere; corrections welcome). Whether this was him taking advantage of a moment of weakness, or him being his usual distrustful self remains to be seen. He did call a shitton of attention to himself with that stunt, though.

I don't mind a scumlist in the least. Unlike the rest of you, I'm putting WHY people are where they are. I will be most upset if people use this as a means of claiming, though. It's far too early to be doing it, and I can't see the town gaining anything useful from it.

Manix - That's either the world's ballsiest mafia move, or town. I know that when I was Ho-oh, I only revived for a phase.
BBM - You're either being very convincingly bussed by Kay or are seriously clueless. Don't volunteer info unless absolutely necessary.
Strawman - Claims to have a post restriction. It's still early in the phase, though, so he's got time for the rest of his posts.
Shinori - Someone else who I had to ask to STFU regarding details (who doesn't seem to understand WHY it's not a good idea to randomly share things). Somehow missed Strawman's last wall of text, so eh.
Snike/JB - They're both really busy, FSR. It's not that easy to get a read on someone who shows up a handful of times during the cycle.
Kaoz - On one hand, the events during the previous cycle didn't look good (tunneling, especially). On the other, Ether claimed to be hit with the same thing Strawman is now claiming to be hit with. I'm not sure what to make of both factors together.
Iris - Has been rather absent, and then somehow forgot to give her opinion on Kaoz. Given the general consensus on him, I'm not sure if this was because she was in a hurry or this was a scumslip.
Spike - Less whining, more reading. Nothing prevented you from reading while kidnapped, either.
Kay - Pushed the new guy, and then got defensive after Ether's vote. Is also pushing name claiming, too, which makes no sense at this point.

Also I will be disappoint if I see other scumlists that look like copypasta. . .or must I remind everyone of KRRM?

#755 Shatter

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:12 AM

oh balls I totally forgot about this

erm

hope I wake up to post in 2 hours?

#756 Snike

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:39 PM

I'm not comfortable with character claiming, as that might help the mafia root out power roles, but I will popcorn.

Shinori - Is excessively eager to contribute, but he's claiming inventor. I think he's just overeager townie when he posts.
Ducky - I stand by my town read on him. Call it meta, but the intent behind his posts are
BigBangMeteor - I think he's an overeager townie like Shinori, but his reasoning for last cycle was off, so he's maybe a bit misguided.
JB - From what I've read, he seems to be town. Call it a gut feeling.
Kaoz - I feel like his setup discussion is distracting from matters at hand, but I'm not really good at reading him.
Kay - Seems to be ignoring any possibility of WIFOM, which I find to be VERY SUSPICIOUS.
Clips - Null read, which worries me.
Manix - We apparently have 3 revives now, Prims included, plus he has a 'mysterious' no-notification failure. I don't see his lynch working out today, so I'll back off. ;/
Spike/Evil Twin - Claims to have received a new djiin that's apparently just like Prims'. Has not really contributed anything otherwise.
Iris - Aforementioned inactivity (and lack of opinions), plus I get the feeling that she's just watching the lynch go on, instead of really contributing.

##Unvote: Manix
##Vote: Iris

I've already explained why.

#757 Kay

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:09 PM

Fine. Reasons added, which gives me a convenient way to rant about a few things anyway. See Eclipse and Manix.

Manix - There is no way he would do something that crazy as mafia. Sure, it could conceivably work, but there's still the factor of nobody doing that kind of thing because none of us have the guts. Besides, that role would be insanely good for mafia, since even if we did lynch whoever he revived, he would just keep reviving them. Think about that. Think about how easily he could have just not claimed, and probably no one really would have noticed him much. As much as Proto likes to claim that his games are horribly unbalanced, there's no way this would be a mafia role. Okay, so he might have been lying about the details of his role, or there's even that crazy idea about him being a mafia something-other-than-Reviver, but it does add another layer of improbability.

Joshaymin/Aurora - There's relatively little reason for this placing, except that JB just looks townish IMO. None of the things he's said really seem suspicious, and it does look to me like he's making an effort to post as much as he can.

Shinori - It's possible that the mafia planned on him targeting Bizz so she could say something to make him look more townish, but I doubt it. Does Bizz really chatter enough that anyone would factor it into a strategy, anyway? Comes off as noobtown either way.

Strawman/StrawSloththeSawSlothStraw - Strawman is himself. He said things of actual value when he had free time to stop being himself. Neutral.

BigBangMeteor - Neutral. He's said some suspicious things, he's said some pro-town things, and he's too new for me to use meta.

Iris~ - Post already. I don't like that we're just forgetting she's here just because she's always nonexistent. It's the perfect excuse to say nothing as mafia. Plus I think she's generally been a bit more talkative, at least.

Clipsey!/eclipse - asdf something really doesn't seem right about her. She's not doing much at all to actually create discussion, and this isn't even "Oh, Clipsey's not half the game" not creating discussion, it's that she's doing nothing but occasionally sniping at a few things and pressuring people early in the phase. I'm just not getting the sense that she has much of an actual opinion on anything, either. Plus I don't like how suspicious she seemed to be of Paperblade combined with her scumlist making it sound like Snike hasn't done anything of note. Which he hasn't, but as much as I wanted to hear what he has to say, it doesn't mean he gets a blank slate.

Snike/Paperblade - As I said above, he's not doing anything of note now, which wouldn't be that bad, except that he's also Paperblade and I didn't like him not posting much without significant pressure.

Spike - Didn't like how he said he didn't want to bandwagon C1, was starting to think that wasn't so bad except now he won't talk. Possibly going to sub out isn't the same as actually subbing out, so no, I don't think that's a get-out-of-jail-free card for inactivity.

Kaoz/Ether - It's a good point that he did leave Manix alone after a while, but I still didn't like how contrived his case sounded. It does mean he's just below everyone else and not 9 places below everyone else.


Kay - Seems to be ignoring any possibility of WIFOM, which I find to be VERY SUSPICIOUS.


I'm not ignoring the possibility of WIFOM. I'm dismissing the possibility of crazy improbable WIFOM. You need to keep in mind where that term came from. There's a limit to how much WIFOM should be accounted for. I also don't like you guys just saying "yeah, it doesn't make sense for Manix to be mafia, but it's all WIFOM! He's so clearly town that it makes him mafia!"

Manix, why haven't you voted for someone? You should probably do that. If you don't want to be lynched, we're going to have to lynch someone else instead of you, and your vote would help with this.

#758 Shinori

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:32 PM

Shinori - Is excessively eager to contribute, but he's claiming inventor. I think he's just overeager townie when he posts.



Just to clarify, I never once claimed my role.

#759 Snike

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:38 PM

I'm not ignoring the possibility of WIFOM. I'm dismissing the possibility of crazy improbable WIFOM. You need to keep in mind where that term came from. There's a limit to how much WIFOM should be accounted for. I also don't like you guys just saying "yeah, it doesn't make sense for Manix to be mafia, but it's all WIFOM! He's so clearly town that it makes him mafia!"

Your definition of crazy improbably WIFOM and my definition are vastly different things. And by you saying that my idea is 'crazy ridiculous', you basically ignored what I said wrt Manix, and particularly how he could use that claim to hang out and survive for a very long time. Kay, with all due respect, stranger shit has happened. See KRRM for an example of that.

And despite what many people are saying about my inactivity, at least I have been trying to give my opinions and reasoning, unlike some people.

@ Shinori
Wait what? I must've misread.

#760 Snike

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:39 PM

Oh wow


I read a Manix post and thought that was shinori.

My Bad.




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