56 replies to this topic

[Thor Odinson]

Well maybe if they wouldn't have put it in if it wasn't intended

It's not that hard to code out

if they really want it to be undoable could be something like if (C24x.get() = true) { (code checking that Tiki can't be revived); } And it'd take them 5 minutes tops
Glitches like the mine glitch and Balmung glitch are much harder to deal with since it deals with all those weird buttonpresses and those are truly unintended

[BrightBow]

It's an oversight. It could have been easily fixed. Just like the 255 crit bug in the japanese PoR. I probably don't need to explain how a bug like this can come to pass.
Or the easy mode glitch during Data Transfer in Radiant Dawn. I bet they just forgot that that mode in the international version existed.

The history of video games is full of glitches that could have been easily fixed but slipped through the testing and went unnoticed.

Edited by BrightBow, 04 April 2012 - 02:44 PM.

[Thor Odinson]

Look if it's something a shitty, beginner programmer like me can find a solution for

maybe they don't actually care if you have it or not

at all

And for fuck's sakes
oversights and glitches are NOT THE SAME THING

Edited by Luminescent Blade, 04 April 2012 - 02:49 PM.

[Integrity]

Anyway, does that mean we assume nothing but warp-skipping chapters once enough staffs are available?

I'm sure as hell not. Are you assuming that if we don't Warpskip Jagen is completely useless? It sounds like he's a competent fighter until "the difficulty spike" near the end, so...?

Edited by Integrity, 04 April 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[BrightBow]

Look if it's something a shitty, beginner programmer like me can find a solution for

maybe they don't actually care if you have it or not

at all

And for fuck's sakes
oversights and glitches are NOT THE SAME THING

Yes, they are not the same thing. An oversight is a reason why a glitch exist, not the glitch itself.
Sure you could find a solution for a lot of glitches. So could I and I'm probably a lot worse. Most of time the difficult part is to find glitches.

Think of the bug in FE4 that allows you to have a unit move several times by rescuing it out of the castle because the menu option for "leaving the castle" doesn't disappear.
I could come up with a simple solution: When using the staff have the game check whether or not the unit is in the castle. If it is then remove the option from the menu the same way they do when having the unit leave normally.
There might not be the best solution but I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult either way. But they just didn't notice.

The Rescue staff is hard to get. Most testers probably didn't got it. Those who did probably never thought about using it on a unit in the castle and so the glitch went unnoticed. Or they were on a tight schedule and had no time.
Either way a simple easy to fix glitch found it's way into the final version.

I'm sure as hell not. Are you assuming that if we don't Warpskip Jagen is completely useless? It sounds like he's a competent fighter until "the difficulty spike" near the end, so...?

Yes, he can hold is own for the most part but I don't think it's anything outstanding that validates vote above average. Silver Lance is awesome, though. And if the difficulty spike turns out to be a brick wall, what good does Jeigan do me then. Other units are just are just as good at the beginning but later can still keep up with 26 spd dragons. (Man, I want to know how the code works for those. Maybe they had 22 spd all the time but the game can't display attributes that are higher then what's max for the class. The game probably doesn't force max states on enemy units, like with those above 60 Hp enemies in the gba games.)
H2 Jeigan also isn't quite like FE6 HM Marcus in that he is pretty much essential to get through.
I haven't given a score yet, but I probably would hand out a 5 or so. But even then, that's just because most units recruited later aren't fancy either. Otherwise I would put him visibly below average. But scores above 7 without bias?

Edited by BrightBow, 04 April 2012 - 03:16 PM.

[Thor Odinson]

That's a terrible solution

One should be allowed to use the rescue staff on a guarding member not just outright ban it

Either way
oversight or not this is widely accepted and you should just accept the fact that it's accepted
I mean how game breaking can it get the game allows you to use a staff for what it's used for oh no

Fucking staff lets you revive any character besides the prologue sacrifice (because dude didn't even die)

It's used for what it should be used for, not some unintended side effect

Edited by Luminescent Blade, 04 April 2012 - 03:12 PM.

[CT075]

It's an oversight. It could have been easily fixed. Just like the 255 crit bug in the japanese PoR. I probably don't need to explain how a bug like this can come to pass.
Or the easy mode glitch during Data Transfer in Radiant Dawn. I bet they just forgot that that mode in the international version existed.

The history of video games is full of glitches that could have been easily fixed but slipped through the testing and went unnoticed.

i wasn't going to get involved but this is just retarded to anyone who actually knows how to code

It is not a glitch that Chiki is resurectable. By definition a glitch is when some code doesn't work out which leads to results that are outside the entirely reasonable bounds of "what the code says is supposed to happen".

Let me tell you exactly how the 255 crit bug works. In computing language, -1 is represented as 0xFF. Take my word for it, or go look up "one's/two's complement" for proof. The problem is, somebody forgot to make sure that 0 + 0xFF (which is equivalent to 0 - 1) is specially handled. Normally, it would be fine. Except that the PoR engine doesn't process crit in a signed context, therefore 0xFF (which is the result of 0-1) is not interpreted as -1, it's interpreted as 255 (0xFF in hex is equal to both -1 and 255, it's one of the first things you learn when you take higher-leveled coding). It's not a fault of the programmer, but rather an unexpected consequence of the way the engine is programmed.

Chiki being revive-able is an example of code working exactly the way it's intended to - Aum is supposed to resurrect a character, and it does. The sole reason that it is "unexpected" is because it goes (ever so slightly) against the story, which means jack shit to the game engine.

MAin difference: 255 crit is caused by a coding oversight when someone does something semi-unexpected. chiki getting revived is caused by someone using the aum staff for it's intended purpose - reviving people

Think of the bug in FE4 that allows you to have a unit move several times by rescuing it out of the castle because the menu option for "leaving the castle" doesn't disappear.
I could come up with a simple solution: When using the staff have the game check whether or not the unit is in the castle. If it is then remove the option from the menu the same way they do when having the unit leave normally.
There might not be the best solution but I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult either way. But they just didn't notice.

Wrong.

You don't code, so I'm not going to berate you for not knowing this, but the solution you propose is not as easy as you make it sound.

"Checking whether the unit is in the castle" as you say, actually takes a lot of work. First you need to determine which unit in memory to check for, then you need to actually find the variable that determines whether he's in the castle. Then you need to compare it to something, and only if it matches then you have to cancel the effect which is not exactly trivial.

A better solution would be to rewrite Rescue's code so that it resets the "position" status of the unit so that it will always go "out of" the castle when being REscue'd. The other thing about most glitches is that a lot of time you have to do something unexpected to trigger them - a lot of times devs will just throw it off as "they would never try that" because the deadline's approaching.

Edited by Camtech, 04 April 2012 - 03:24 PM.

[dondon151]

I don't see how the 255 crit forge glitch has any relevance because no one discusses the JP version of FE9 on this forum.

The Tiki + Nagi exploit is also definitely not a glitch. The only requirement for chapter 24x is that Tiki not be alive. There is no condition in the game that says "if Nagi is in party, than Tiki can't be revived." Therefore it's perfectly legitimate. Something that one would consider a mere "trick" (like the Nagi + Falchion trick) should not be put on the same level as a glitch that is an obvious programming oversight.

I don't see what the problem is with the 255 crit forge glitch either. It makes mages better, but they're still held back by most of the same disadvantages as before. Sword users and lance users improve slightly but the more important forges are Javelins and Hand Axes, neither of which benefit from the glitch.

[BrightBow]

That's a terrible solution

One should be allowed to use the rescue staff on a guarding member not just outright ban it

Either way
oversight or not this is widely accepted and you should just accept the fact that it's accepted
I mean how game breaking can it get the game allows you to use a staff for what it's used for oh no

Fucking staff lets you revive any character besides the prologue sacrifice (because dude didn't even die)

It's used for what it should be used for, not some unintended side effect

I must have expressed myself poorly. Not allowing the staff on a guarding member wasn't what I wanted to say.
But of course, it's besides the point.

My objection was probably more about the fact of making scores dependent on strategies that allow you to bypass essentially the whole game rather then that it is a glitch (Which it is. I still think that it only works like this because nobody thought about that scenario or because it was to much of a hassle to fix it.).
I'm sorry for the trouble I caused here.

Edited by BrightBow, 04 April 2012 - 03:33 PM.

[Thor Odinson]

Like Cam explained much more adequately than I could as he's been in this field longer than I have, it ain't a fucking glitch, for the last time for crying out loud. Possible storyline oversight but the staff does exactly what it's supposed to do without any unintended side effects.

I don't think warpskip should be disallowed, but it shouldn't be what everyone's forced to rate on and if mentioned, it shouldn't be the only criteria. Like any other rating threads, some people rate on casual, some rate based on ranked, and some rate on efficiency. As long as the pros and cons of each character are weighted adequately and reasonably (aka no "hey I spent 200 turns arena abusing Est and now she's all green, best character EVARS) within whatever standard one wants to use.

WRT Jeigan, as it has been addressed, he's good to adequate until C16 or so, and characters should be weighted on their own performances. It doesn't matter if somebody is all green and another isn't, if they're both ORKOing, they're effectively doing the same thing offensively.

Edited by Luminescent Blade, 04 April 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[dondon151]

also some of you people are retarded

jagen OHKOs enemies with forges until chapter 18 at least on H2, since he falls just short on H5, so how can that possibly be bad?

[BrightBow]

also some of you people are retarded

jagen OHKOs enemies with forges until chapter 18 at least on H2, since he falls just short on H5, so how can that possibly be bad?

As the only person on this board who deserves to be described "retarded", I would have thought because he needs forges and and dies easily while others don't.
This objection comes from somebody who is honestly and unsarcastically an idiot so I don't need anyone to repeat that, I don't disagree, but I'm still curious why this would be a non-issue.

Edited by BrightBow, 04 April 2012 - 04:10 PM.

[dondon151]

you get so much money in this game. what are you going to spend it on?

[BrightBow]

you get so much money in this game. what are you going to spend it on?

I know you can calculate the whole game in advance to know exactly how much money is needed and everything, but in praxis nobody will probably know so I would find it to be good to have money to fall back on. Not saying he is bad just that I don't think that needing money should be entirely ignored.

Edit: Besides, scratch that.
I would say forged Dragon Lances, forged Wyrm slayers, forged bows and magic. Anything to help against those 26 spd dragons.

Edited by BrightBow, 04 April 2012 - 04:33 PM.

[dondon151]

I know you can calculate the whole game in advance to know exactly how much money is needed and everything, but in praxis nobody will probably know so I would find it to be good to have money to fall back on. Not saying he is bad just that I don't think that needing money should be entirely ignored.

Edit: Besides, scratch that.
I would say forged Dragon Lances, forged Wyrm slayers, forged bows and magic. Anything to help against those 26 spd dragons.

in practice someone's going to sell that bullion for 20000G and be like "well shit how do i spend that money now"

which is by the way 3 moderately strong ridersbane forges, good enough for H5. so on H2, that probably pays for like 9 adequately strong ridersbane forges.

[Refa]

Also I believe it's possible to obtain more gold in non Warp skip.

[ShinRPGamer]

I'm not much of a Jeigan fan (the archetype not the character) but Jegan holds up well for the first 6 chapters, though I usually drop him for Hardin after chapter 5.

5/10