Jump to content


Photo

Rate the Unit, Day 10: Ilyana


  • Please log in to reply
75 replies to this topic

#41 Peppy

Peppy

    The resident Ilyana Fanboy of SF!

  • Member
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:My Insanity.
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:Awakening

Posted 05 April 2012 - 09:19 PM

What were you thinking IS, Put Three Mages in the game and make the two of them almost exactly worse than the first one...Posted Image

Anyways, She is what everybody says it is. An inferior Soren with a Better Strength Growth and is More Proficient on thunder. I don't find Soren and Ilyana that bad to use though so i shall give her a 5.5/10 (Rated Soren a 6)
But my Bias Power's Turn that 5.5 into a 6.5 so yeah, that is my rating...

#42 Paperblade

Paperblade

    Love's Vagrant

  • Member
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SoCal
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:New Mystery of the Emblem

Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:36 PM

0/10

Narga likes her do I need another reason

Edited by Paperblade, 05 April 2012 - 10:36 PM.


#43 Snowy_One

Snowy_One

    Free

  • Member
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:U.S.A.
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:Awakening

Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:49 PM

If we're assuming fixed mode, then her strength will only go up every 4 levels. Her base strength is 1. She starts off with thunder tomes. Her AS situation isn't - that - much better than Soren's. Sure, she can use heavier tomes faster and will not lose speed from lighter tomes (light wind). She also has worse speed than he does. Before she promotes, her slight strength advantages probably won't mean much.


The thing is, it's really cheap and easy to lower the weight of a thunder tome down to 1. Base-level Ilyana has a AS of 9 with such a tome while Soren needs to gain 4 levels to match. So for a veeeeery narrow window Ilyana will have a higher AS than Soren. Now, I'm not a mathimatician, but Ilyana also has a 30% chance to level-up in SPD on her first level-up while if Soren misses once when he levels-up (only a 10% higher growth), he will end up definitively slower.

Also, why the heck aren't you forging thunder tomes? They're the best non-unique magic tome in the game for crying out loud. If you did so you'd have a tome with only 1 less MT than Thoron, an equal amount of hit, same/more crit, double the uses, only 1 weight, and obtainable as soon as chapter 9. Steel forges don't even become available until 14 and dropping it down to 1 weight only costs 316 extra gold (6093 to max MT, 6,335 extra to do both), so there really isn't a reason to not forge those tomes before 14 (ranged weapons don't become available until 18 either). From chapter 8 (9 for thunder) to 13 you can only forge iron, slim, and tomes, and the tomes are simply a much better investment than anything else if you're using a mage. Heck, I would even go as far as to say a maxed-out thunder tome is a viable investment of Hammerine uses. Certainly has the longest return of power (40 uses) as opposed to other weapons lower durability.

#44 Sangyul

Sangyul

    SF mafuiya

  • Member
  • Gender:Male
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:Path of Radiance

Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:57 PM

A very narrow window of time indeed. If we give Ilyana a 1 weight thunder tome with whatever strength we want to attach to it, then what's to stop Soren from getting a max-strength wind tome as well? Also:

but Ilyana also has a 30% chance to level-up in SPD on her first level-up while if Soren misses once when he levels-up (only a 10% higher growth), he will end up definitively slower




This is fixed mode. We're evaluating these characters from fixed mode. Which means that without a band or some other stat-altering junk, Soren will gain speed faster than Ilyana. Besides, what is Soren's level when Ilyana comes in anyway, if we're using him? What is his average speed when she makes her entrance?

#45 Jack Frost

Jack Frost

    Hee Ho

  • Member
  • Gender:Male
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:New Mystery of the Emblem

Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:58 PM

Why can't Soren use a forged thunder tome

#46 Paperblade

Paperblade

    Love's Vagrant

  • Member
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SoCal
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:New Mystery of the Emblem

Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:01 PM

wait Snowy likes Ilyana?

PKL can I vote a negative number

#47 Sangyul

Sangyul

    SF mafuiya

  • Member
  • Gender:Male
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:Path of Radiance

Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:01 PM

My point was more of, "if we can forge a thunder tome with 1 weight for Ilyana, why can't we forge a tome for Soren to fit his needs". So we could give Soren a forged thunder tome, too.

#48 Snowy_One

Snowy_One

    Free

  • Member
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:U.S.A.
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:Awakening

Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:36 PM

Even if you dropped the weight as low as possible, it would still be 1. Until Soren gets that 1 STR, he's stuck with an AS loss.

And Blade, I like a LOT of characters. This may shock you, but I even like Titania as a character. I just despise how tier debaters treat her.

Edited by Snowy_One, 05 April 2012 - 11:37 PM.


#49 Paperblade

Paperblade

    Love's Vagrant

  • Member
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SoCal
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:New Mystery of the Emblem

Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:59 PM

changing to -5/10

#50 Sangyul

Sangyul

    SF mafuiya

  • Member
  • Gender:Male
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:Path of Radiance

Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:09 AM

Even if you dropped the weight as low as possible, it would still be 1. Until Soren gets that 1 STR, he's stuck with an AS loss.

And Blade, I like a LOT of characters. This may shock you, but I even like Titania as a character. I just despise how tier debaters treat her.


Yes, but what is Soren's speed? And what is Ilyana's speed? If both Soren and Ilyana are used, and if they both continue to gain levels, then Soren's speed will overtake Ilyana's. If they're both using forged tomes with 1 weight, even if Soren loses 1 AS from having 0 strength and Ilyana doesn't, what are their speeds? If Soren has 13 AS naturally and Ilyana has 12 AS, then they have the same AS from using a forged tome with 1 weight. What if Soren's speed is higher than Ilyana's by a margin of one? Oh, look, even with AS loss he would still have higher speed than her!

This also doesn't take into consideration Soren's higher magic if he and Ilyana are both gaining levels and using forged tomes of equal might.

#51 Dark_Huntress

Dark_Huntress

    あなたの鉱山。

  • Member
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Seattle, WA, FE4 Thread, The Last To Post Wins
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:Awakening

Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:13 AM

(Soren: Pretty Emotionless Kid With Hidden Depths).


Soren is definitely a timid person. That's what makes him sooooo cute. <3

3.5/10

Ilyana dies a lot, is frail, has bad spd, and in general is very outclassed, has poor move and is generally redundant. There's not much reason to really use her.


She has Shade for a reason.

Honestly, you're better off dumping them both for Tormod once you get him.


Callil is better statwise. She doesn't get weighed down by those heavier tomes later like Toromod does. Since Ilyana and Callil have the best Str growths in the game.

#52 Anouleth

Anouleth

    Member

  • Member
  • Gender:Male
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:N/A

Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:11 AM

Soren is definitely a timid person. That's what makes him sooooo cute. <3



She has Shade for a reason.



Callil is better statwise. She doesn't get weighed down by those heavier tomes later like Toromod does. Since Ilyana and Callil have the best Str growths in the game.

Actually, Tormod is only a point of strength behind Ilyana and Calill, and that's only at level 20/20, and Tormod has more speed anyway so he's still faster with every tome in the game, and even if he wasn't, he has a support list full of +attack supports so he can get away with using lighter and weaker tomes.

And meanwhile Tormod also wins HP and DEF so he's more durable and has 2 more movement. AKA, Tormod is statistically better than Ilyana and Calill. And even in comparison to Soren, he's better, since his supports close the gap in magic and he can use the mage band (whereas Soren will ram his magic cap if he tries), and he again has more DEF and move. So statistically, Tormod is the best Sage in the game, it's just that he joins late and underlevelled. Take notes Nino, Pelleas, this is how Ests should work.

#53 aku chi

aku chi

    Armchair Economist

  • Member
  • Gender:Male
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:Path of Radiance

Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:20 AM

If we give Ilyana a 1 weight thunder tome with whatever strength we want to attach to it, then what's to stop Soren from getting a max-strength wind tome as well?

A max-Mt Wind Tome forge is economic suicide (>15,000G). Soren prefers the Thunder Tome forge anyway. I don't know why there's any debate over whether Soren will be stronger or faster than Ilyana. He will.

Level 6 Soren: 9 Mag, 10 Spd, 0 Str
Level 6 Ilyana: 8 Mag, 9 Spd, 1 Str

Soren and Ilyana will be equally fast to start. Soren will be a little more powerful. Soren has a higher Mag and Spd growth (by 0.1 a piece). Clearly, if we forge our Mage a 1 Wt Tome, Soren will be leading Ilyana in Atk and Spd forever. But Ilyana does have a higher Str growth, so lets see what happens if our Mages have to make due with generic Tomes and Ilyana has some time to develop Str. (In the relevant stats (Str, Mag, and Spd) Soren starts with 99 Mag growth points and Ilyana starts with 50 Mag growth points.)

Level 14 Soren: 14 Mag, 13 Spd, 0 Str
Level 14 Ilyana: 12 Mag, 11 Spd, 3 Str

Behold! Ilyana has a potential 1 AS lead over Soren with heavier Tomes. So Ilyana can have 16 Atk and 11 AS with a Thunder Tome. But Soren can get 18 Atk and 11 AS with an Elwind. Or, if Soren needs the AS, he can use a Wind Tome for 16 Atk and 12 AS. And if Ilyana upgrades to Elthunder for 19 Atk and 8 AS, Soren can match that with Elfire (if he can wield it), or settle for Elwind's 18 Atk. And this is about as good as it gets for Ilyana. Soren is strictly better on offense (before even considering innate Adept). Ilyana's superior Str could theoretically be helpful when wielding siege tomes, but neither Ilyana nor Soren is going to be doubling with siege tomes anyway.

#54 PKL

PKL

    WOW

  • Member
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:in an island surrounded by Horsebirds
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:New Mystery of the Emblem

Posted 06 April 2012 - 09:11 AM

@ Narga- Sorry about that. Had to count the votes because of the rule that states that I wont throw out votes anonymously. I didnt notice those votes until I was tallying. I didnt count paperblade's though, since it seemed like a joke vote.

#55 Narga_Rocks

Narga_Rocks

    Dragon Reborn

  • Global Moderator
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Alethkar
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:Genealogy of the Holy War

Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:20 AM

Who cares if it's below the average? It's my opinion and the point of this thread is to post our ratings of characters based on our opinions.

I wish you'd just say you're mad because I'm rating one of your favorite characters low. It'd be a lot more honest of you.

No, I'm mad because your reasoning stinks. Haven't you noticed I normally point out when people do that in these threads? Give more reasoning and I wouldn't complain about your rating number. How was that not clear?

your reasoning amounts to "bad speed = 2/10", since you didn't provide anything else that was concrete. And it seems to me (and apparently PKL) that this is not enough justification to pass the rule "Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted." If he'd seen it earlier, it seems he would have said something.

Edited by Narga_Rocks, 06 April 2012 - 10:28 AM.


#56 Jack Frost

Jack Frost

    Hee Ho

  • Member
  • Gender:Male
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:New Mystery of the Emblem

Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:35 AM

No, I'm mad because your reasoning stinks. Haven't you noticed I normally point out when people do that in these threads? Give more reasoning and I wouldn't complain about your rating number. How was that not clear?

your reasoning amounts to "bad speed = 2/10", since you didn't provide anything else that was concrete. And it seems to me (and apparently PKL) that this is not enough justification to pass the rule "Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted." If he'd seen it earlier, it seems he would have said something.


You must be clinically retarded because I did provide acceptable reasoning. Here:

Soren is bad
Ilyana is worse than him because of bad speed
Therefore since Soren is bad and I think I gave him a rating in the 3/10 ballpark before, Ilyana gets a 2/10.

And even if i did just type bad speed = 2/10, who cares? Bad speed really is a critical flaw and is perfectly valid reasoning for a 2/10. It is related to her gameplay performance because bad speed hinders that peformance. People have shown in this topic her speed is not good, so why just parrot it?

Probably the only reason why PKL is even refusing to count the vote is mainly because you're telling him to and you're a mod. And I bet you wouldn't care if I wrote "Ilyana is awesome 10/10."

Edited by Dark Sage, 06 April 2012 - 10:41 AM.


#57 Narga_Rocks

Narga_Rocks

    Dragon Reborn

  • Global Moderator
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Alethkar
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:Genealogy of the Holy War

Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:45 AM

You must be clinically retarded because I did provide reasoning. Here:

Soren is bad (no explanation of how)
Ilyana is worse than him because of bad speed (bad speed, as I pointed out you said)
Therefore since Soren is bad and I think I gave him a rating in the 3/10 ballpark before, Ilyana gets a 2/10.


And even if i did just type bad speed = 2/10, who cares? Bad speed really is a critical flaw and is perfectly valid reasoning.

Her speed isn't that bad, though. It's not like she never doubles anything. If you say "bad speed = 2/10" I can say "mediocre speed 5/10" or "hits hard with thunder 7/10" or anything of the sort. I wouldn't see what I just said there as a decent vote, either. At least your Geese rating pointed out bad bases and bad growth, which is a whole two things. I never use Geese and if I'd seen that post when the topic was still live I might've even objected to that.

Btw, mad isn't really the right word for it. At least, not before you accused me of biased reasons for complaining about your post. And now I'm pissed because you think I wouldn't object to the 10/10 for the same reason (sucky reasoning). Now, if you said "bad speed x/10" where x is reasonably close to other votes, or "Ilyana is awesome x/10" where again x is reasonably close, I wouldn't bother as a sucky vote wouldn't be doing much to the average.

And PKL IS counting your vote, did you not read his post? But if he'd seen it before tallying, he implied he wouldn't count it. Learn to read.

#58 Colonel M

Colonel M

    The Tyrant - Has Returned

  • Member
  • Gender:Male
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:New Mystery of the Emblem

Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:47 AM

I think rating Soren or Ilyana over a 3 or 4 is fucking ridiculous. But that's just me.

#59 Jack Frost

Jack Frost

    Hee Ho

  • Member
  • Gender:Male
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:New Mystery of the Emblem

Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:51 AM

Her speed isn't that bad, though. It's not like she never doubles anything. If you say "bad speed = 2/10" I can say "mediocre speed 5/10" or "hits hard with thunder 7/10" or anything of the sort. I wouldn't see what I just said there as a decent vote, either. At least your Geese rating pointed out bad bases and bad growth, which is a whole two things. I never use Geese and if I'd seen that post when the topic was still live I might've even objected to that.


I didn't see you bitch at dondon for giving Lugh a 4/10 for "hitting enemies for 9 HP damage."

Btw, mad isn't really the right word for it. At least, not before you accused me of biased reasons for complaining about your post. And now I'm pissed because you think I wouldn't object to the 10/10 for the same reason (sucky reasoning). Now, if you said "bad speed x/10" where x is reasonably close to other votes, or "Ilyana is awesome x/10" where again x is reasonably close, I wouldn't bother as a sucky vote wouldn't be doing much to the average.


Or even better, you can choose not to take these rating topics seriously in the first place. Seriously, some of you people take this too seriously and are just tools about the whole thig. "Oh he doesn't agree with me, THROWING HIS VOTE OUT!", "Not enough "reasoning" which I can use as an excuse to throw out votes I don't like", "Imma gonna scream at people who give Nino slightly less shitty rating than I give" etc.

And PKL IS counting your vote, did you not read his post? But if he'd seen it before tallying, he implied he wouldn't count it. Learn to read.


misread something =/= illiteracy.

Edited by Dark Sage, 06 April 2012 - 11:02 AM.


#60 aku chi

aku chi

    Armchair Economist

  • Member
  • Gender:Male
  • Favorite Fire Emblem Game:Path of Radiance

Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:58 AM

I think rating Soren or Ilyana over a 3 or 4 is fucking ridiculous. But that's just me.

Siege tomes. They're kind of a big deal.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users