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Proposed Thracia Names Changes


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#121 OldMan

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 06:27 PM

Saying "It's a mythological reference, just copypasta name in English!" is exactly what both sides here want to avoid.

Major Crusader/Historical Names:

Okay, time to preface this. Because there are a lot of changes. A lot. Figuring out this Gordian knot of names was probably the most difficult part of my task in editing the Thracia translation script. As with the Dermid incident, there are many points where the Crusader names deviate from the standard Katakana for the Norse deities they refer to. However, rather than just randomly assigning names because the Kana doesn't match up, I looked at patterns as to WHERE the Kana doesn't match up, and how it is different and patterns do exist.

First, let me explain the mythological references of all the Crusaders just for those not in the know.

Where the Katakana deviates from the reference:
Odo (オード) = r (オーズ)
Baldo (バルド) = Baldr (バルドル)
Hezul (ヘズル) = Hr (ヘズ)
Dain (ダイン) = Dinn (ダーイン)
Tordo (トード) = Thor (トール)

Where the Katakana is the same as the reference:
Ulir (ウル) = Ullr (ウル)
Blaggi (ブラギ) = Bragi (ブラギ)
Heim (ヘイム) = Heim(dallr) (ヘイム(ダル))
Sety (セティ) = (For)seti ((フォル)セティ)

Although according to Vincent, "Fala" is a reference to a Nordic Priestess called a Vlva (Anglicized to Vala), I could not find the Katakana for Vala. I decided, however, that in all likelihood the Kana for "Fala" would be the same as the Kana for "Vala," and thus decided to change Fala to Vala to reflect that reference.

I could find no specific Norse name to which Nova may refer. I assume it just means Nova, as in Supernova, or whatever the Latin term for nova is based on. In either case, I decided to keep Nova as the name.

That leaves Neir. At first I didn't think it was a mythological reference either, as both it and Nova are the only Crusaders who are not listed as mythological references on Vincent's site. However, I did some digging and discovered that it actually is a reference to Nerthus, an Anglicized prototypal Njrr. The Kana for Neir is ネール; the Kana for the first syllable of Nerthus is ネル. Considering Njrr is a major Norse deity (like most of the other roots for the Crusaders), as well as the Kana similarity, I concluded that the reference must be intentional.

(As a footnote, if you're wondering why Neir, Sety, and Heim all use shortened versions of the Norse deities's Kana, I theorize that it has something to do with space, as all shortenings occur to bring the Crusader name down to no more than three Kana, and no Kana for any of the Crusaders exceed three Kana at all. I assume this was done to make sure all the names fit on the Blood Wheel in FE4.)

Now that I've explained all the Crusaders and their references, I will now explain my name changes. I'll start with those which use identical Kana to their Norse counterparts, as those are the easiest. I merely used common Anglicized forms of the Norse deities in creating my translations. Ulir thus becomes Ullur (an Anglicized version of Ullr), Blaggi becomes Bragi, Heim stays Heim, and Sety becomes Seti. I hope none of these will be all too controversial; Bragi is already the name used in the patch anyways, and neither Seti nor Ullur are very different from the originals. I am changing Fala to Vala for the reasons listed above, and I find no reason to change Nova.

That leaves the six Crusader names that deviate from their source material: Odo, Baldo, Tordo, and Hezul make major deviations; Dain and Neir remove or add a vowel elongation mark. Dain is the easiest change to explain, and thus I will tackle it first.

Dain (ダイン) = Dinn (ダーイン)

The elongation here is removed from the original. I assume this happened because of the three-Kana cap I noted earlier. What is the change in pronunciation between ダイン and ダーイン? I'm not exactly certain, but I assume there is not much. I figure it may have something to do with the accent in Dinn, placing emphasis on the "a" sound and perhaps having something to do with the diphthong. The point is not the vowel sound, however. The main difference between the current translation (Dain) and my translation (Dainn) is that added "n." However, the changes between the Kana for Thracia Dain and the Kana for mythological Dinn do not change the added "n," and thus there is no reason why Thracia Dain should have one less n than the mythological spelling. My change reflects that.

Next I will discuss Tordo.

Tordo (トード) = Thor (トール)

The difference here is at the end, replacing the r sound of Thor (ル) with the d sound of Tordo (ド). The different is NOT at the beginning, and substituting a th with a t is not a proper way to corrupt a word in English (it is in Japanese, where there is no th sound and thus the th sound is imitating by the s, sh, z, and t sounds remember that for later). Thus, Tordo is an improper translation of the Kana, even though the Kana does not exactly match up to the Kana for Thor. As I said before, the only difference between the two Kana is the replacement of the r sound in Thor with the d sound in Thode. As you can see, my translation reflects that difference, adding no extra differences and keeping in line with the Kana.

The same goes for Baldo.

Baldo (バルド) = Baldr (バルドル)

We have another shortening here, again probably to fit the three-Kana cap I discussed earlier. The primary difference between the two names is a clean removal of the r sound, still expressed by the ル used in Thor's name. The obvious translation, then, would be to take Baldr and lop off the r sound as well, leaving us with Bald, which I have decided to Anglicize as Balde. However, there is another possibility here, that possibility being to change Baldo into Baldur. But wait! The two Kana are different, shouldn't that mean the translations should be different as well? Well maybe not, in this case only. Why? Look at the Kana for the other Norse deities whose names in in r.

r (オーズ)
Hr (ヘズ)
Ullr (ウル)

The standard Katakana for all three of these Norse deities lops off the r sound at the end, similar to how the Thracia Balde lops off the r sound in Baldr (Ullr appears to have the r sound at the end, but ル is actually being used to dictate the two ls in Ullr. ウルル would be the actual representation if the Kana were to depict the r sound in Ullr). Because it seems standard practice to depict the names of these Norse deities without the final r sound in Japanese, then perhaps it would be reasonable to apply the same practice to Baldur's name. I'll leave that one up to you guys, whether your prefer Balde or Baldur.

But now for the other Crusaders.

Odo (オード) = r (オーズ)
Hezul (ヘズル) = Hr (ヘズ)

Remember when I told you earlier to remember that there is no th sound in Japanese, and that that sound can be depicted through the s, sh, z, and t sounds instead? Here's where that becomes important. Although looks like a d, it can be used to depict both a d sound and a th sound. That is why the Japanese Kana for r (オーズ) and Hr (ヘズ) look so strange. ズ is a z sound, not a d sound clearly meant to depict the th sound that is represented by the in both of those names. This helps us explain what exactly "Hezul" is supposed to represent. That z in the middle of Hezul isn't supposed to be a z at all, but rather a th, keeping in line with the name of the Norse deity that it directly mimics (ヘズル and ヘズ; the only difference is the missing r sound that I mentioned earlier).

The Kana for Hezul is the exact same as that for Hr save that Hezul adds the r sound that is for some reason missing in the Kana for Hr. Meanwhile, the e sound after the H is there to mimic the sound that the makes. Remember, Katakana is based around sound mimicry, not spelling mimicry. However, in English, when one takes a loan word from another language that uses an accent, customarily one removes the accent but keeps the base words regardless of pronunciation. Hence, we get facade instead of fasade, cliche instead of clichae, etc. Thus, when making a translation of the Kana for Hr, we would not blindly follow the sound mimicry of the Kana, but revert the spelling back to that of the original reference. For instance, we do not spell Salem's name as Seiram simply because that is the literal translation of the Kana (セイラム), but rather change it Salem because we know that that is what the vowel sounds in the Kana are trying to mimic. Why should it be different here?

Thus, with all of this taken into account (the e sound replacing an o sound and the z sound replacing the th sound), Hezul should be changed to Hothur (or rather Hothr, but I decided to Anglicize to make things easier for the eyes).

With Hothur taken care of, Ode is far simpler. It replaces the z sound in the Kana for r with a d sound, and thus I institute a d sound rather than a th sound. Then I keep in accord with the names for Balde and Thode and come up with Ode.

Neir has actually given me some trouble.

Neir (ネール) = Ner (ネル)

On one hand, there is a clear difference thanks to the elongated vowel mark added to the Crusader's name. Attempting to follow that vowel change and also keep the same format I have used for other Crusader names (namely, representing the r sound with an ur), I have for the moment settled on Niur. I'm not completely satisfied with the name, as it's an unusual diphthong in English, and I have considered going with Ner, or even keeping the original Neir. I'm open to feedback on this one.


Major Place Name Changes:

The final category I will be covering here, as I have no yet done class and weapon names, save for a few instances which appear in the script (Grafcalibur, Gae Bulg, etc).

I'm actually much less certain on the names here. For instance, Manster, Lenster, Alster, and Conort all use the exact same Kana as the Irish provinces of Munster, Leinster, Ulster, and Connaught, with no deviations whatsoever. I want to make these changes But already at the mere mention of this in the thread (by someone who wasn't even me, no less), a lot of people already exclaimed hostility towards the changes.

The one major place name change that I have made, then, is:

Freeji --> Freya
Freeji was another one of those places I didn't think was a mythological reference. It wasn't noted as such on Vincent's site, at least. After poking around, however, I finally fell upon the Norse goddess Freyja, and the similarity of that name to the name Freeji instantly struck me. After poking around, it appears that Freeji is indeed a corruption of Freyja (a goddess who, by the way, has many variant spellings for her name, including but not limited to Freia, Freya, Freja, Frya, and Freyia). Freeji has always been a place of uncertain nomenclature (I've seen Freege, Frege, Freegi), and so I hope that this change doesn't spark too much of a controversy.

My other changes are minor and generally restricted to the small places on the maps, where perhaps on chapter or so takes place. For instance, Chapter 12 takes place in Dakia, which I changed to Dacia because not only is the Kana for both identical, but Dacia is actually a place in real-world Thracia, making it the only coherent geographical reference in the entire game.

Anyways, here are my proposed changes. I'll see what you guys think. I've done my first edit of the text and will post it soon as well.



#122 dondon151

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 06:55 PM

Even if the name is meant to be a reference to Oisin, it's clearly not using the same Katakana as Oisin typically uses. It's a corruption of the name and thus the English version should indicate that corruption as well.

So... why can't it be Orshin? Osin? Osshen? Vergil?

#123 Arch

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 07:45 PM

In other news; I started looking into SNES graphical hacking today. Sent Pukachi a message this morning, hopefully he'll see it. If not, I'll have to figure things out myself. Been perusing the ROM on and off in my spare time today, looking for those jumbled graphics (since the menu texts are all just images). It's just a case of the original graphics being oddly overwritten with new menu graphics, and the pointers maligning to create that weird jumbled mess. All we have to do is figure out how the graphics are handled, make some new menu graphics, and fix all the pointers.

Some hackerspeak for "this shouldn't be too challenging." What'll be more interesting is editing the text, since I don't know if the tools were ever shared.

Edited by Arch, 11 April 2012 - 07:45 PM.


#124 Celice

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:14 PM

For the text graphics, refer earlier in... this thread? I believe. I already pointed out where the graphics are located and how to access them.

#125 Arch

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:12 PM

For the text graphics, refer earlier in... this thread? I believe. I already pointed out where the graphics are located and how to access them.

Not seeing them in this thread, but if you've got that information it'd make my life a ton easier.

EDIT: Found it in the other topic.

Edited by Arch, 11 April 2012 - 09:17 PM.


#126 General Banzai

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:22 PM

Thank you TheEnd, for showing everyone how I didn't copypasta mythological references where the Kana didn't add up

So... why can't it be Orshin? Osin? Osshen? Vergil?


No reason why not, but I thought you guys didn't want to make changes if they could be avoided. You guys overlook that I honestly tried to make as few changes as possible. I only made five playable character changes, and only two of them where particularly major, and one of those changes (Ilios) not only better fits the Kana but also helps the story make more sense, for reasons I already explained.

#127 Arch

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:36 PM

No reason why not, but I thought you guys didn't want to make changes if they could be avoided. You guys overlook that I honestly tried to make as few changes as possible. I only made five playable character changes, and only two of them where particularly major, and one of those changes (Ilios) not only better fits the Kana but also helps the story make more sense, for reasons I already explained.

Five player character names, and just about every major term in the game... That's where things really started to get fucking ridiculous. Hell, I even support Pan and Ilios. Some people are just opposed to changes on principle, but most are just opposed to changes on a whim. Saying that you "honestly tried to make as few changes as possible" is absolute absurdity. Most of them weren't even necessary. Oisin acknowledges a reference to an Irish warrior, at least there's meaning behind that change. Ethlinn? Balde? Freya? Niur? Connaught? Hothur? Dainn? Dermid? ....Why? They just seem so unnecessary.

#128 General Banzai

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:07 AM

Other than Ethlin and Delmud none of those even had consistent names to begin with. And it's like Delmud was just such a great name name.

When the patch as it stands is using shit like Freeji and Conort there's a problem.

#129 Celice

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:17 AM

Are you seriously trying to say that because you can spot errors (all subjectivity out of the roost), that that is now justification for you to propagate even more errors?

#130 General Banzai

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:20 AM

Are you seriously trying to say that because you can spot errors (all subjectivity out of the roost), that that is now justification for you to propagate even more errors?

Except my translations AREN'T errors. It's simply that people don't want to change names that they don't feel are a problem. I do feel these names are a problem, though, and that is where the argument lies.

Even dondon said that there wasn't a whole lot wrong with my methodology per se, but rather my principle of changing the names to begin with.

#131 shadowofchaos

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:25 AM

Except my translations AREN'T errors. It's simply that people don't want to change names that they don't feel are a problem. I do feel these names are a problem, though, and that is where the argument lies.


You are STARTING to sound like Crash.

#132 Jave

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 05:00 AM

It's gonna be hilarious that, when we finally settle on Othin/Oisin/Oisheen, FE13 gets localized and he's a playable character there.

"OTIS has joined the party!"

On a more serious note, my take on this is that if any name is romanized in-game, then it should be used no matter what. Wasn't that the reason the names of the Crusaders and several locations were kept like that in the first place?

Edited by Jave, 12 April 2012 - 05:21 AM.


#133 CT075

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 06:12 AM

For the text graphics, refer earlier in... this thread? I believe. I already pointed out where the graphics are located and how to access them.

We found the graphics, but we don't have a tool that can handle editing the actual script.

(okay that's a lie- I know how to but it's a pain in the ass to do it by hand and I can't be bothered to code a tool for it while school is in the way)

#134 Celice

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:55 AM

We found the graphics, but we don't have a tool that can handle editing the actual script.

(okay that's a lie- I know how to but it's a pain in the ass to do it by hand and I can't be bothered to code a tool for it while school is in the way)

Then don't. Though honestly, that sound more like a hand-jerking excuse, not a valid one.

#135 Agile Tit-Tyrant

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:11 PM

Prepare for idiotic post.
Translating the game to English.
Keeping names in Japanese.

Let's make a new English FE 12 patch, but instead of naming Mars "Marth", lets name him Marusu.

#136 CT075

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 06:17 AM

Then don't. Though honestly, that sound more like a hand-jerking excuse, not a valid one.

Excuse me for not having a masterful knowledge of what exists or not on rh.net

not to mention that you're completely right- unless arch decides to ask me to, it is a hand-jerking response, I have no issue with the current patch (that I don't even use)

#137 Celice

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 12:40 PM

Excuse me for not having a masterful knowledge of what exists or not on rh.net

Except it's been used in the community for a looooooooooong time, not constricted to existing at romhacking dot net. It's not a matter of being unacquainted with that site in particular, but with text editing in the universal (of the hobby). It's been used for numerous projects, both purely-translation and just bobbing around with various edits.

I suppose it's more that you are a combination of both having not been around long enough, and having not known enough about the hobby in-general, to know this :/ Which is too bad--'cause there's a lot of cool shit out there that you'd probably make use of if you were around and were knowledgeable about the hobby in-general, rather than in-specifics.

#138 CT075

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 06:10 AM

I don't make it my purpose to have a complete knowledge about hacking the SNES games, nor do I keep track of progress in them. I consider ROMhacking my hobby only as far as direct coding/scripting is concerned.

For the most part, there's a lot of shit I really don't need to make use of because a) several times by the time I find something I'll have written it myself and b) it really doesn't matter to me.

#139 Sir Ilpalazzo

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:18 PM

I kind of got here late and I don't have much to add, but I really dislike the "people are all used to these names already, why bother changing them?" sentiment. People would complain if an FE4 retranslation used Barhara instead of Valhalla, right?

I was kind of disappointed when I read that the old FE4 translation got a ton of place names wrong, and I was sort of annoyed at the FE5 patch when I guessed that Wiseman was supposed to be Weissman (which is really anal because he's such a bit character, I know, but still). I'd love to see a professionally done translation that took great care in keeping all of the names and terminology accurate, so although I'm not totally sure if I agree with everything in the first post, I agree with your ideals.

#140 Lord Raven

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:32 PM

I don't understand the point you are trying to make with the first paragraph.




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