40 replies to this topic

[Peekayell]

Dat Rules (stolen/borrowed from Integrity)
- Ratings are assumed to be on Hard Mode+Fixed Mode.
- Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted. If somebody else said what you want to already, quote them explicitly.
+/- ≤1 point extra regarding personality/appearance is encouraged, but no more. If you exercise your bias privileges, please do so explicitly.
- Numerical votes out of 10, or something proportional to it. Make it easy to calculate for my sake.
- Every ranking phase ends whenever I get out of bed, between 0700 and 0800 EST. Do the math for your timezone, Brits.
- I will insist you do not use the "Not X" reason on any character, where X is another unit. If you do, your vote will be thrown out.
- "Recruits X" or "takes you to X chapter" arguments are explicitly banned. C'mon, people, this shouldn't need to be a rule. That's not gameplay performance.
- Assume that the character in question is being recruited.
- Similar to the "Recruits X" rule, do not use "she brings a Knight Ward to the team" as an argument.
- BEXP is free to be used in any quantity on any character.
- Rating a unit too low because you think its overrated will make me throw away your vote without mercy .
- I withhold the privilege to tell you your rating is bogus and demand you revise it if it breaks any of the above. I will not throw out votes anonymously, you will be informed and given a chance to revise.

Averages:
Rolf: 1.154
Shinon: 3
Ilyana: 4.98
Soren: 5.152
Rhys: 5.315
Gatrie: 5.463
Mia: 5.708
Mist: 6.413
Lethe: 6.75
Boyd: 8.293
Ike: 8.567
Oscar: 9.075
Marcia: 9.36
Titania: 9.91

Edited by PKL, 10 April 2012 - 06:29 AM.

[Aquaman]

Smitebot until he transforms.

But when he does, he rapes everything, and is invincible.

And his growths are amazing.

And his supports are good!

8.5/10

[Elieson]

Huge mov, Smite, Water affinity, and pro offensive & defemsove stats. Mordecai is boss Laguz. He won't always double, but he generally isn't being doubled.

Solid brick powerhouse. Better & longer lasting than Lethe, but still no 2range, flying, or canto.

7.25.

Edited by Elieson, 10 April 2012 - 07:15 AM.

[Renall]

The best shover. He's so awesome at shoving that his Shove command is upgraded to Smite, because that's just how he rolls. When Mordecai shoves you, you stay shoved. If that were everything he had going for him, that'd still be pretty good, but fortunately he has a lot more than that. Where to begin...

...Well, let's just throw it out there: Defense. Mordy is a master tank. Joins with more HP than anybody will probably have, and will have higher DEF than just about anybody who isn't Titania untransformed. And as it turns out, untransformed laguz are an enemy magnet, moreso than Provoke ever seems to be. So although he won't counterattack much, and his gauge starts at zero, letting him do a spot of tanking while he waits to transform.

And when he does transform? Good Lord. Tons of STR, big boosts to SPD and his defenses, and he starts tearing shit apart. He's still mostly there to tank, except now anything that attacks him at 1-range gets clawed in the face by a dude with 22 STR. Not a bad counter prospect, but expect a lot of Javelins and Bows to be used against him instead, which he can't do anything about.

What really pushes Mordecai's defense over the top, though, are his supports. A Water type to begin with, Mordy's got Defense and Offense boosts coming with anyone he supports. And who does he support? Two early Defense supports - Ilyana who is Light and meh but quick, Mist who is Water and pretty good and also fast - and Ulki later, who is quick and quite a good laguz unit himself. An A with Mist would give both of them +3 to their attacks (already a nasty thought with Mordy's claws) and bolster Mordy's defenses, including his RES. Even an A with Ilyana or something would be desirable to increase his tankiness. Basically unless he's hanging out with Stefan, he's bulking himself up even further.

He's also a good choice for the Demi Band, of course, though by the time you get it you'll have Muarim, Ultimate Tiger Rapist.

8/10. I'd love to give more, but he has SPD concerns (albeit nothing that derails him as a prospective team member) and no 2-range. Tanking also means a bit less when Titania can pretty much do the same thing and has for the last bazillion chapters. Still, best character in the game aside, few people take a punch like Mordecai does.

[Snowy_One]

3/10

All he can do before he transforms is smite which is, literally, a glorified shove. He takes most of the map to transform in the first place and, even when unbanded, he simply is too SLOW! 20 SPD when transformed naturally at 20/20. Ilyana is faster than him and she doesn't have to worry about speed issues and she can at least TAKE a speed band, which is something Mordi very well might end up not doing if he takes the demiband. Heck, Ilyana at least has the advantage of being able to strike enemies from long range as well, provide healing utility, and can fight for the entire chapter. The only thing Mordi has in his favor is smite which, really, you're going to give him a high rating for his ability to push one unit per turn one more square than another unit could?

Edit: Even when transformed without the demiband his offense isn't that great. 43 at maximum level. Mia with a forged silver at the same level can match that with supports and, once again, doesn't have to deal with transform issues or SPD problems. Seriously, why the heck do people love him so much? He's got transform issues, ****** offense, speed problems, and his one redeeming factor is Smite which apparently makes him an 8/10 in some people's books.

Edited by Snowy_One, 10 April 2012 - 09:07 AM.

[Tyrant Sage]

Smite gives Mordecai utility and his combat early one is pretty decent, though it always could be better. Essential for quick clears. Built like a brick shithouse.

6/10

[Colonel M]

Snowy, you should remember this is FE9 HM. These enemies are fucking pathetic.

Most enemies roll about 14 AS tops, and a lot of them are usually under that mark. That also includes a lot of the reinforcements. 43 Atk OHKOes Myrmidons too, and even some Swordmasters for fucks sake. And that's without supports. Of course, we aren't assuming impossible levels either.

Seriously, go look at the HM stats topic. Even if Mordecai is having a minor Spd issue, there's these things called Speedwings that have little to 0 competition because every piss enemy unit is so slow that it doesn't take much to double them.

Another glaring point that you forgot to talk about Ilyana - she needs to be trained to even look "decent". Mordy is good right out of the fucking box UNTRANSFORMED and it only takes baiting enemies to attack him. He's not going to really die early on either, and Demi Band decreases his Str by 3 and Spd by 1...

Yes there's Maurim, but this is more of Mordecai in a vacuum, and the option isn't exactly terrible.

[Snowy_One]

Snowy, you should remember this is FE9 HM. These enemies are fucking pathetic.

Most enemies roll about 14 AS tops, and a lot of them are usually under that mark. That also includes a lot of the reinforcements. 43 Atk OHKOes Myrmidons too, and even some Swordmasters for fucks sake. And that's without supports. Of course, we aren't assuming impossible levels either.

I took a look at chapter 17-4 and already was seeing enemies appear that a max-level Mordi couldn't double. That's not to mention the double-standard this means in regards to Ilyana (Mordi's SPD is fine enough for him to get a 8/10, but Ilyana, who can get more SPD than him, seems to get benched over speed problems).

Seriously, go look at the HM stats topic. Even if Mordecai is having a minor Spd issue, there's these things called Speedwings that have little to 0 competition because every piss enemy unit is so slow that it doesn't take much to double them.

Speedwings are a valuable resource never the less.

Another glaring point that you forgot to talk about Ilyana - she needs to be trained to even look "decent". Mordy is good right out of the fucking box UNTRANSFORMED and it only takes baiting enemies to attack him. He's not going to really die early on either, and Demi Band decreases his Str by 3 and Spd by 1...

Mordi has a base SPD of 8, Ilyana has a base SPD of 9. Mordi needs to wait multiple turns before transforming to even be able to fight. Ilyana does not. Ilyana can nab a forged thunder tome as well if she's used (which you should be doing for any mage as soon as they join) which eliminates any AS loss she might have. Mordi still needs to dwadle around for several turns before he can do anything other than be a useless meatshield.

Yes there's Maurim, but this is more of Mordecai in a vacuum, and the option isn't exactly terrible.

I wasn't considering Muarim. I was considering that, in order to work with a SPD band on the field, he needs to equip it which will make him unequip the band (and thusly untransform) so he won't be able to get the kill to level-up. Ilyana can at least feasibly use a speedband without having to worry about if it means she won't be able to get the kill or not.

[Tyrant Sage]

Ilyana doesn't have Smite utility and her move is really bad.

Also are you kidding me? Speedwings are a valuable enough resource alright, but only on units that have trouble doubling. Which is exactly why Mordecai is justified in taking one. Have you heard of the law of diminishing returns?

Wait, you probably have me on ignore here too, so I'm just wasting keystrokes.

[Colonel M]

I took a look at chapter 17-4 and already was seeing enemies appear that a max-level Mordi couldn't double. That's not to mention the double-standard this means in regards to Ilyana (Mordi's SPD is fine enough for him to get a 8/10, but Ilyana, who can get more SPD than him, seems to get benched over speed problems).

I found one enemy:

1x Pegagus Kn lv 17 (iron lance)
25 hp, 19 atk, 17 AS, 113 hit, 39 avo, 8 def, 10 res, 7 crit, 5 cev

Which would be OHKOed regardless.

So what I'm going to do is actually sit and name off every enemy that has 16 or greater Spd from 17-4 - 28 (because nobody gives two flying fucks about Endgame) and we're disregarding Myrmidons / Swordmasters because they obviously are too fast..

18: Okay, so I can admit the Ravens would be an issue. The boss has 15 AS, 2 Sword Knights and an Archer have 14, and then a Fighter has... 12. Everything else is roughly 10-0 AS (yes, some enemies have 0 AS).

19: Excluding Ravens and Naesala, the boss has 20 AS. The next highest? A Bow Knight with 12. Everyone else averages about 12-10 AS.

20: Shiharam has 14. Everyone else has like 12 or lower.

21: Ena has 18, the miniboss has 15. A Sniper comes in with 14 AS and a Halberdier comes with 13. Everything else is 12 or lower.

22: Schaeffer has 18 AS. The Thief is easy to OHKO (28 HP / Def total), a Tiger comes with 16 AS and a Cat comes with 15, and everyone else is 13 or lower.

23: Disregarding Myrmidons, enemies have 15 AS (note: only a small handful do) or below. Mordy should go nowhere near Petrine.

24: There's Rikard with 19 AS, a Berserker with 16, and a Paladin with 17. 2 Enemies have 15, Bandits can have 13, and the rest are 12 or lower.

25: Aside from Gromell:

1x Cat lv 7 (claw)
37 hp, 24 atk, 16 AS, 119 hit, 33 avo, 15 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 1 cev
3x Cat lv 9-10 (claw)
42 hp, 27 atk, 18 AS, 114 hit, 38 avo, 18 def, 9 res, 8 crit, 2 cev

1x Raven lv 11 (beak)
38 hp, 21 atk, 20 AS, 124 hit, 42 avo, 14 def, 11 res, 8 crit, 2 cev
1x Hawk lv 12 (beak)
42 hp, 25 atk, 19 AS, 129 hit, 41 avo, 16 def, 9 res, 9 crit, 3 cev

1x Tiger lv 14 (claw)
49 hp, 34 atk, 18 AS, 133 hit, 39 avo, 20 def, 9 res, 10 crit, 3 cev

Turn 3 Reinforcements:

1x Cat lv 7 (claw)
37 hp, 24 atk, 16 AS, 119 hit, 33 avo, 15 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 1 cev
1x Cat lv 10 (claw)
42 hp, 27 atk, 18 AS, 114 hit, 38 avo, 18 def, 9 res, 8 crit, 2 cev

1x Raven lv 12 (beak)
38 hp, 22 atk, 21 AS, 127 hit, 45 avo, 14 def, 11 res, 8 crit, 3 cev

The Snipers have 15 AS (4) and a Halberdier. This is one chapter where Mordecai could do kind of iffy at.

Chapter 25 and thereafter is the few times enemies are actually above 16 AS (well, a very very good portion of them). They usually add up to the boss (which obviously Mordecai can't tackle), the Myrmidons / Swordmasters (small handful), and maybe a couple other units depending on the situation.

Now, I'm not really saying Mordecai is so goddamn awesome (quite the contrary, I don't really like Mordecai all that much), but to say that enemies are really that fast in this game is kind of a joke. Furthermore, we rag on Ilyana not really because of her Spd. The big culprits come out to be her offense being a small redeeming point. Her Spd base isn't terrible, but her growth is pathetic (30%, 35% with a band) and a promotion throws a whopping two. Like Mordecai, she's likely going to slam one huge hit on an enemy and leave it at that. Ilyana also has shitty durability (20 HP | 3 Def is pretty amazing, right!) and shitty Movement (6 Mov woohoo!) to go along with her other issues.

There's also Smite, which once again is a big thing to talk about. Mordecai can fucking Shove / Smite Jill untransformed, which is pretty powerful to have. Now your mounted units can have about 10 / 11 Mov instead of the usual 8 / 9. Mordecai also gains another 2 Mov transformed, which means 9 Mov bad ass shoving machine. Pity that he can't Shove Haar, but that's the only unit of the damn game.

Speedwings are a valuable resource never the less.

Oh really, well so is BEXP. Now can you name me what units seriously can use the Speedwings and not give a diminishing return, or are we going to point out the Captain Obvious?

I was considering that, in order to work with a SPD band on the field, he needs to equip it which will make him unequip the band (and thusly untransform) so he won't be able to get the kill to level-up.

A 5% boost makes negligible difference. It would take 10 levels just to make it +50% growth. You're not really speeding up his Speed growth very quickly with it.

[aku chi]

The only thing Mordi has in his favor is smite which, really, you're going to give him a high rating for his ability to push one unit per turn one more square than another unit could?

Mordecai can shove mounted units that others cannot.

Mordecai's combat, on the other hand, is far from praise-worthy. His combat potential when fully transformed is irrelevant, because he takes forever to transform. So he has no combat worth mentioning in C10-C15. And then Mordecai's Spd with the Demi Band is irredeemably low.

Addendum:

Mordecai can [smashingly] Shove / Smite Jill untransformed, which is pretty powerful to have. Pity that he can't Shove Haar, but that's the only unit of the damn game.

Untransformed Mordecai cannot shove promoted Jill. Transformed Mordecai can shove Jill and Haar.

Now can you name me what units seriously can use the Speedwings and not give a diminishing return, or are we going to point out the Captain Obvious?

Boyd, Jill, and Haar are probably the best Speedwings candidates.

Edited by aku chi, 10 April 2012 - 11:32 AM.

[Colonel M]

Untransformed Mordecai cannot shove promoted Jill. Transformed Mordecai can shove Jill and Haar.

Does Jill gain Wt upon promotion? I only ask because it isn't listed in promotion gains, so I kind of just went with her Wt was the same after promotion. I guess it does list the base stats for promoted to be 37... so I guess you're right. My apologies for that.

Boyd, Jill, and Haar are probably the best Speedwings candidates.

Well, I was hoping that Snowy could (somehow) produce an answer (note: he usually can't), but yes, those are the possible candidates.

[Snowy_One]

Now, I'm not really saying Mordecai is so goddamn awesome (quite the contrary, I don't really like Mordecai all that much), but to say that enemies are really that fast in this game is kind of a joke. Furthermore, we rag on Ilyana not really because of her Spd. The big culprits come out to be her offense being a small redeeming point. Her Spd base isn't terrible, but her growth is pathetic (30%, 35% with a band) and a promotion throws a whopping two. Like Mordecai, she's likely going to slam one huge hit on an enemy and leave it at that. Ilyana also has shitty durability (20 HP | 3 Def is pretty amazing, right!) and shitty Movement (6 Mov woohoo!) to go along with her other issues.

Keep in mind that you were also giving Mordi his best natural SPD in the game (his 20/20 AS with full transform bonuses) with the point being that, by midgame, there are already enemies coming along whom he cannot double even at his best. He needs to be level 12-13 before he can reliably double an enemy with 12 AS with his full transform bonuses. I'm not going to say it's impossible to do, but if it does happen by that point I would be suspecting that the person isn't exactly playing fair.

Also, Ilyana's growth-rate doesn't really matter. What matters is that she will be having either the same or more SPD than Mordi (basically) for the majority of the game and yet still gets panned for it. I would say her offense is universally better than Mordi's as well. When they deliver one hit, Ilyana has a chance to crit (which means a kill) and she has range, the ability to hit RES, and doesn't have to mess around with a transform gauge (which is a HUGE thing! Banded Mordi only has ~40 attack when banded at max level which is low for a unit who doesn't crit, doesn't really use any special abilities, and doesn't even have range. Even ROLF can beat his attack when transformed and at least he's fast enough to double constantly).

Also, Ilyana may have poor durability, but Mordi can't counter-attack when unshifted. Neither of them will be taking hits most of the time, so his superior durability is for naught.

Oh really, well so is BEXP. Now can you name me what units seriously can use the Speedwings and not give a diminishing return, or are we going to point out the Captain Obvious?

Titania wouldn't mind one for the endgame (though if her SPD is high enough already is debatable), Boyd would like one, Ilyana would use them well for offense, one for Jill would probably help a lot when she's starting, Muarim would definatly make good use of it, and that's simply the units who would make immediate use of it. Also, what do you even mean by 'diminishing returns'? Units who would make good use of them throughout the game? Or units who you approve of using them?

There's also Smite, which once again is a big thing to talk about. Mordecai can fucking Shove / Smite Jill untransformed, which is pretty powerful to have. Now your mounted units can have about 10 / 11 Mov instead of the usual 8 / 9. Mordecai also gains another 2 Mov transformed, which means 9 Mov bad ass shoving machine. Pity that he can't Shove Haar, but that's the only unit of the damn game.

Except that's not the case. One unit gets up to 2 extra spaces for one turn in one direction if Mordi is close enough to them to smite them when he is untransformed. How much would you value Mordi if he didn't have Smite? How much would you value him with it? Is it really worth that much of a difference (for me, since I hold no value to smite, it's the same both ways, so yes)?

A 5% boost makes negligible difference. It would take 10 levels just to make it +50% growth. You're not really speeding up his Speed growth very quickly with it.

My rule of thumb for quick calculations is that it's 1 point in the stat for every 20 levels (yes, I know it's not right. I do this only when I need a quick answer. Sort of like how you know 1.05 X 1.05 is more than 1, but not 2 when asked on the spot). Regardless, it's a option Ilyana has (that gets her SPD up to about 23) that Mordi just doesn't get a bad deal on, but can't use at all if he uses the demiband (Lethe can at least try for kills during that short period when she's transformed naturally).

Untransformed Mordecai cannot shove promoted Jill. Transformed Mordecai can shove Jill and Haar.

Why would transformed Mordi be shoving in the first place? He should be out there fighting. He isn't a dancer. He doesn't provide dancer services. He doesn't even provide truly unique services. He's an awful unit through and through and gets doted on unfairly by people obsessed with low turncounts because he can provide one to two extra movement to the fliers. Utterly worthless.

[Rejected Lifeform]

This guy is a powerhouse with access to +DEF and +ATK supports! He destroys things for quite a while!

Now, just imagine if you give this guy lots of Water affinity supports... OUCH~!

7.5

[Zeem]

Huge mov, Smite, Water affinity, and pro offensive & defemsove stats. Mordecai is boss Laguz. He won't always double, but he generally isn't being doubled.

Solid brick powerhouse. Better & longer lasting than Lethe, but still no 2range, flying, or canto.

7.25.

My thoughts.

[Snapdragon]

Good attack and defense, as well as movement. He has the whole annoying laguz transformation thing but his doesn't suffer as much as lethe. He might have to wait to transform, but even then he can be used to smite units around, especially those who have issues keeping up otherwise.

6.5

Edited by Snapdragon, 10 April 2012 - 02:24 PM.

[ALEXANDER]

Pros:
Good supports
Smite
durable
High MOV
Awesome early game utility

Cons:
transformation bar crap
doubling issues
takes bonus dmg for being a laguz
only attacks at 1 range

7.75/10 (+0.75 for being a nice guy, but I don't think he deserves an 8)

Armor Knights' pitiful movement is the main reason I hate that class, so Mordy's whopping 9 MOV more than fixes that. Too bad he can't use the knight ward like they can to fix his speed issues. Oh, he also only works part time .

Smite can be fun and useful so he doesn't just sit there and derp for a few turns. The most obvious example of this would be smiting Ike (and shoving him a few more times) so you can recruit Astrid and Gatrie on the first turn of the chapter so you don't have to worry about Astrid dying during the enemy phase.

His transformation bar is annoying since it starts at 0, but he's durable enough, especially at the beginning, to take a few hits to bring it up while also luring enemies. At least he comes with a laguz stone, but you'll have to use it wisely.

I've never tried demi banding him, but from what I can tell from reading others' entries, it's a bad idea.

[Florina Stark]

Mordecai, the warrior from Gallia. Doesnt like fighting and is a big softy.

Pros:
Smite is awesome.
Great base strength.
Tanky as fuck all.

Cons:
A little low on speed.
Transformation bar is slow.

Mordy is just pretty badass. I mean, he has utility on his side where he can smite people MOUNTED (untransformed!!!) and shiz. I mean, wow. Nice. Plus he can get his murder on rather well. Earlier in the game, hes doubling junk. Later on, not as much but most of the things he cant double are ravens, cats, and Swordies. Not too big of a deal because hes probably OHKOing them anyway. Things cant really hurt him unless its fire magic. If you are feeling generous, slap a speedwing on Mordy and watch the murder happen!

8/10. 9/10 bias because i love Mordy. Hes just such a cute character. Big ol' tiger whos all huge but is the biggest sweetheart ever. See his Mist support for details.

Edited by Florina, 10 April 2012 - 03:18 PM.

[aku chi]

Why would transformed Mordi be shoving in the first place? He should be out there fighting. He isn't a dancer. He doesn't provide dancer services. He doesn't even provide truly unique services. He's an awful unit through and through and gets doted on unfairly by people obsessed with low turncounts because he can provide one to two extra movement to the fliers. Utterly worthless.

Because Jill alone is more effective at combat than Jill and Mordecai together. I agree with you that Mordecai is overrated, but he is far from worthless: he provides a rare utility. And he does so for twenty chapters with zero resources (except to shove Jill or Haar, at which point he needs to borrow the Demi Band).

[Lord Raven]

5.5/10

better than Lethe at combat (despite not being transformed at beginning) but his Smite >>> her shove. he's easy to rescue, too.

Edited by Mercenary Raven, 10 April 2012 - 05:04 PM.