Rate the Unit, Day 15: Mordecai

[PKL]

Dat Rules (stolen/borrowed from Integrity)

- Ratings are assumed to be on Hard Mode+Fixed Mode.

- Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted. If somebody else said what you want to already, quote them explicitly.

+/- ≤1 point extra regarding personality/appearance is encouraged, but no more. If you exercise your bias privileges, please do so explicitly.

- Numerical votes out of 10, or something proportional to it. Make it easy to calculate for my sake.

- Every ranking phase ends whenever I get out of bed, between 0700 and 0800 EST. Do the math for your timezone, Brits.

- I will insist you do not use the "Not X" reason on any character, where X is another unit. If you do, your vote will be thrown out.

- "Recruits X" or "takes you to X chapter" arguments are explicitly banned. C'mon, people, this shouldn't need to be a rule. That's not gameplay performance.

- Assume that the character in question is being recruited.

- Similar to the "Recruits X" rule, do not use "she brings a Knight Ward to the team" as an argument.

- BEXP is free to be used in any quantity on any character.

- Rating a unit too low because you think its overrated will make me throw away your vote without mercy .

- I withhold the privilege to tell you your rating is bogus and demand you revise it if it breaks any of the above. I will not throw out votes anonymously, you will be informed and given a chance to revise.

Averages:

Rolf: 1.154

Shinon: 3

Ilyana: 4.98

Soren: 5.152

Rhys: 5.315

Gatrie: 5.463

Mia: 5.708

Mist: 6.413

Lethe: 6.75

Boyd: 8.293

Ike: 8.567

Oscar: 9.075

Marcia: 9.36

Titania: 9.91

Edited April 10, 2012 by PKL

[MacLovin]

Smitebot until he transforms.

But when he does, he rapes everything, and is invincible.

And his growths are amazing.

And his supports are good!

8.5/10

[Elieson]

Huge mov, Smite, Water affinity, and pro offensive & defemsove stats. Mordecai is boss Laguz. He won't always double, but he generally isn't being doubled.

Solid brick powerhouse. Better & longer lasting than Lethe, but still no 2range, flying, or canto.

7.25.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Elieson

[Renall]

The best shover. He's so awesome at shoving that his Shove command is upgraded to Smite, because that's just how he rolls. When Mordecai shoves you, you stay shoved. If that were everything he had going for him, that'd still be pretty good, but fortunately he has a lot more than that. Where to begin...

...Well, let's just throw it out there: Defense. Mordy is a master tank. Joins with more HP than anybody will probably have, and will have higher DEF than just about anybody who isn't Titania untransformed. And as it turns out, untransformed laguz are an enemy magnet, moreso than Provoke ever seems to be. So although he won't counterattack much, and his gauge starts at zero, letting him do a spot of tanking while he waits to transform.

And when he does transform? Good Lord. Tons of STR, big boosts to SPD and his defenses, and he starts tearing shit apart. He's still mostly there to tank, except now anything that attacks him at 1-range gets clawed in the face by a dude with 22 STR. Not a bad counter prospect, but expect a lot of Javelins and Bows to be used against him instead, which he can't do anything about.

What really pushes Mordecai's defense over the top, though, are his supports. A Water type to begin with, Mordy's got Defense and Offense boosts coming with anyone he supports. And who does he support? Two early Defense supports - Ilyana who is Light and meh but quick, Mist who is Water and pretty good and also fast - and Ulki later, who is quick and quite a good laguz unit himself. An A with Mist would give both of them +3 to their attacks (already a nasty thought with Mordy's claws) and bolster Mordy's defenses, including his RES. Even an A with Ilyana or something would be desirable to increase his tankiness. Basically unless he's hanging out with Stefan, he's bulking himself up even further.

He's also a good choice for the Demi Band, of course, though by the time you get it you'll have Muarim, Ultimate Tiger Rapist.

8/10. I'd love to give more, but he has SPD concerns (albeit nothing that derails him as a prospective team member) and no 2-range. Tanking also means a bit less when Titania can pretty much do the same thing and has for the last bazillion chapters. Still, best character in the game aside, few people take a punch like Mordecai does.

[Snowy_One]

3/10

All he can do before he transforms is smite which is, literally, a glorified shove. He takes most of the map to transform in the first place and, even when unbanded, he simply is too SLOW! 20 SPD when transformed naturally at 20/20. Ilyana is faster than him and she doesn't have to worry about speed issues and she can at least TAKE a speed band, which is something Mordi very well might end up not doing if he takes the demiband. Heck, Ilyana at least has the advantage of being able to strike enemies from long range as well, provide healing utility, and can fight for the entire chapter. The only thing Mordi has in his favor is smite which, really, you're going to give him a high rating for his ability to push one unit per turn one more square than another unit could?

Edit: Even when transformed without the demiband his offense isn't that great. 43 at maximum level. Mia with a forged silver at the same level can match that with supports and, once again, doesn't have to deal with transform issues or SPD problems. Seriously, why the heck do people love him so much? He's got transform issues, ****** offense, speed problems, and his one redeeming factor is Smite which apparently makes him an 8/10 in some people's books.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Snowy_One

[Dark Sage]

Smite gives Mordecai utility and his combat early one is pretty decent, though it always could be better. Essential for quick clears. Built like a brick shithouse.

6/10

[Colonel M]

Snowy, you should remember this is FE9 HM. These enemies are fucking pathetic.

Most enemies roll about 14 AS tops, and a lot of them are usually under that mark. That also includes a lot of the reinforcements. 43 Atk OHKOes Myrmidons too, and even some Swordmasters for fucks sake. And that's without supports. Of course, we aren't assuming impossible levels either.

Seriously, go look at the HM stats topic. Even if Mordecai is having a minor Spd issue, there's these things called Speedwings that have little to 0 competition because every piss enemy unit is so slow that it doesn't take much to double them.

Another glaring point that you forgot to talk about Ilyana - she needs to be trained to even look "decent". Mordy is good right out of the fucking box UNTRANSFORMED and it only takes baiting enemies to attack him. He's not going to really die early on either, and Demi Band decreases his Str by 3 and Spd by 1...

Yes there's Maurim, but this is more of Mordecai in a vacuum, and the option isn't exactly terrible.

[Snowy_One]

Snowy, you should remember this is FE9 HM. These enemies are fucking pathetic.

Most enemies roll about 14 AS tops, and a lot of them are usually under that mark. That also includes a lot of the reinforcements. 43 Atk OHKOes Myrmidons too, and even some Swordmasters for fucks sake. And that's without supports. Of course, we aren't assuming impossible levels either.

I took a look at chapter 17-4 and already was seeing enemies appear that a max-level Mordi couldn't double. That's not to mention the double-standard this means in regards to Ilyana (Mordi's SPD is fine enough for him to get a 8/10, but Ilyana, who can get more SPD than him, seems to get benched over speed problems).

Seriously, go look at the HM stats topic. Even if Mordecai is having a minor Spd issue, there's these things called Speedwings that have little to 0 competition because every piss enemy unit is so slow that it doesn't take much to double them.

Speedwings are a valuable resource never the less.

Another glaring point that you forgot to talk about Ilyana - she needs to be trained to even look "decent". Mordy is good right out of the fucking box UNTRANSFORMED and it only takes baiting enemies to attack him. He's not going to really die early on either, and Demi Band decreases his Str by 3 and Spd by 1...

Mordi has a base SPD of 8, Ilyana has a base SPD of 9. Mordi needs to wait multiple turns before transforming to even be able to fight. Ilyana does not. Ilyana can nab a forged thunder tome as well if she's used (which you should be doing for any mage as soon as they join) which eliminates any AS loss she might have. Mordi still needs to dwadle around for several turns before he can do anything other than be a useless meatshield.

Yes there's Maurim, but this is more of Mordecai in a vacuum, and the option isn't exactly terrible.

I wasn't considering Muarim. I was considering that, in order to work with a SPD band on the field, he needs to equip it which will make him unequip the band (and thusly untransform) so he won't be able to get the kill to level-up. Ilyana can at least feasibly use a speedband without having to worry about if it means she won't be able to get the kill or not.

[Dark Sage]

Ilyana doesn't have Smite utility and her move is really bad.

Also are you kidding me? Speedwings are a valuable enough resource alright, but only on units that have trouble doubling. Which is exactly why Mordecai is justified in taking one. Have you heard of the law of diminishing returns?

Wait, you probably have me on ignore here too, so I'm just wasting keystrokes.

[Colonel M]

I took a look at chapter 17-4 and already was seeing enemies appear that a max-level Mordi couldn't double. That's not to mention the double-standard this means in regards to Ilyana (Mordi's SPD is fine enough for him to get a 8/10, but Ilyana, who can get more SPD than him, seems to get benched over speed problems).

I found one enemy:

1x Pegagus Kn lv 17 (iron lance)
25 hp, 19 atk, 17 AS, 113 hit, 39 avo, 8 def, 10 res, 7 crit, 5 cev

Which would be OHKOed regardless.

So what I'm going to do is actually sit and name off every enemy that has 16 or greater Spd from 17-4 - 28 (because nobody gives two flying fucks about Endgame) and we're disregarding Myrmidons / Swordmasters because they obviously are too fast..

18: Okay, so I can admit the Ravens would be an issue. The boss has 15 AS, 2 Sword Knights and an Archer have 14, and then a Fighter has... 12. Everything else is roughly 10-0 AS (yes, some enemies have 0 AS).

19: Excluding Ravens and Naesala, the boss has 20 AS. The next highest? A Bow Knight with 12. Everyone else averages about 12-10 AS.

20: Shiharam has 14. Everyone else has like 12 or lower.

21: Ena has 18, the miniboss has 15. A Sniper comes in with 14 AS and a Halberdier comes with 13. Everything else is 12 or lower.

22: Schaeffer has 18 AS. The Thief is easy to OHKO (28 HP / Def total), a Tiger comes with 16 AS and a Cat comes with 15, and everyone else is 13 or lower.

23: Disregarding Myrmidons, enemies have 15 AS (note: only a small handful do) or below. Mordy should go nowhere near Petrine.

24: There's Rikard with 19 AS, a Berserker with 16, and a Paladin with 17. 2 Enemies have 15, Bandits can have 13, and the rest are 12 or lower.

25: Aside from Gromell:

1x Cat lv 7 (claw)
37 hp, 24 atk, 16 AS, 119 hit, 33 avo, 15 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 1 cev
3x Cat lv 9-10 (claw)
42 hp, 27 atk, 18 AS, 114 hit, 38 avo, 18 def, 9 res, 8 crit, 2 cev

1x Raven lv 11 (beak)
38 hp, 21 atk, 20 AS, 124 hit, 42 avo, 14 def, 11 res, 8 crit, 2 cev
1x Hawk lv 12 (beak)
42 hp, 25 atk, 19 AS, 129 hit, 41 avo, 16 def, 9 res, 9 crit, 3 cev

1x Tiger lv 14 (claw)
49 hp, 34 atk, 18 AS, 133 hit, 39 avo, 20 def, 9 res, 10 crit, 3 cev

Turn 3 Reinforcements:

1x Cat lv 7 (claw)
37 hp, 24 atk, 16 AS, 119 hit, 33 avo, 15 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 1 cev
1x Cat lv 10 (claw)
42 hp, 27 atk, 18 AS, 114 hit, 38 avo, 18 def, 9 res, 8 crit, 2 cev

1x Raven lv 12 (beak)
38 hp, 22 atk, 21 AS, 127 hit, 45 avo, 14 def, 11 res, 8 crit, 3 cev

The Snipers have 15 AS (4) and a Halberdier. This is one chapter where Mordecai could do kind of iffy at.

Chapter 25 and thereafter is the few times enemies are actually above 16 AS (well, a very very good portion of them). They usually add up to the boss (which obviously Mordecai can't tackle), the Myrmidons / Swordmasters (small handful), and maybe a couple other units depending on the situation.

Now, I'm not really saying Mordecai is so goddamn awesome (quite the contrary, I don't really like Mordecai all that much), but to say that enemies are really that fast in this game is kind of a joke. Furthermore, we rag on Ilyana not really because of her Spd. The big culprits come out to be her offense being a small redeeming point. Her Spd base isn't terrible, but her growth is pathetic (30%, 35% with a band) and a promotion throws a whopping two. Like Mordecai, she's likely going to slam one huge hit on an enemy and leave it at that. Ilyana also has shitty durability (20 HP | 3 Def is pretty amazing, right!) and shitty Movement (6 Mov woohoo!) to go along with her other issues.

There's also Smite, which once again is a big thing to talk about. Mordecai can fucking Shove / Smite Jill untransformed, which is pretty powerful to have. Now your mounted units can have about 10 / 11 Mov instead of the usual 8 / 9. Mordecai also gains another 2 Mov transformed, which means 9 Mov bad ass shoving machine. Pity that he can't Shove Haar, but that's the only unit of the damn game.

Speedwings are a valuable resource never the less.

Oh really, well so is BEXP. Now can you name me what units seriously can use the Speedwings and not give a diminishing return, or are we going to point out the Captain Obvious?

I was considering that, in order to work with a SPD band on the field, he needs to equip it which will make him unequip the band (and thusly untransform) so he won't be able to get the kill to level-up.

A 5% boost makes negligible difference. It would take 10 levels just to make it +50% growth. You're not really speeding up his Speed growth very quickly with it.

[aku chi]

The only thing Mordi has in his favor is smite which, really, you're going to give him a high rating for his ability to push one unit per turn one more square than another unit could?

Mordecai can shove mounted units that others cannot.

Mordecai's combat, on the other hand, is far from praise-worthy. His combat potential when fully transformed is irrelevant, because he takes forever to transform. So he has no combat worth mentioning in C10-C15. And then Mordecai's Spd with the Demi Band is irredeemably low.

Addendum:

Mordecai can [smashingly] Shove / Smite Jill untransformed, which is pretty powerful to have. Pity that he can't Shove Haar, but that's the only unit of the damn game.

Untransformed Mordecai cannot shove promoted Jill. Transformed Mordecai can shove Jill and Haar.

Now can you name me what units seriously can use the Speedwings and not give a diminishing return, or are we going to point out the Captain Obvious?

Boyd, Jill, and Haar are probably the best Speedwings candidates.

Edited April 10, 2012 by aku chi

[Colonel M]

Untransformed Mordecai cannot shove promoted Jill. Transformed Mordecai can shove Jill and Haar.

Does Jill gain Wt upon promotion? I only ask because it isn't listed in promotion gains, so I kind of just went with her Wt was the same after promotion. I guess it does list the base stats for promoted to be 37... so I guess you're right. My apologies for that.

Boyd, Jill, and Haar are probably the best Speedwings candidates.

Well, I was hoping that Snowy could (somehow) produce an answer (note: he usually can't), but yes, those are the possible candidates.

[Snowy_One]

Now, I'm not really saying Mordecai is so goddamn awesome (quite the contrary, I don't really like Mordecai all that much), but to say that enemies are really that fast in this game is kind of a joke. Furthermore, we rag on Ilyana not really because of her Spd. The big culprits come out to be her offense being a small redeeming point. Her Spd base isn't terrible, but her growth is pathetic (30%, 35% with a band) and a promotion throws a whopping two. Like Mordecai, she's likely going to slam one huge hit on an enemy and leave it at that. Ilyana also has shitty durability (20 HP | 3 Def is pretty amazing, right!) and shitty Movement (6 Mov woohoo!) to go along with her other issues.

Keep in mind that you were also giving Mordi his best natural SPD in the game (his 20/20 AS with full transform bonuses) with the point being that, by midgame, there are already enemies coming along whom he cannot double even at his best. He needs to be level 12-13 before he can reliably double an enemy with 12 AS with his full transform bonuses. I'm not going to say it's impossible to do, but if it does happen by that point I would be suspecting that the person isn't exactly playing fair.

Also, Ilyana's growth-rate doesn't really matter. What matters is that she will be having either the same or more SPD than Mordi (basically) for the majority of the game and yet still gets panned for it. I would say her offense is universally better than Mordi's as well. When they deliver one hit, Ilyana has a chance to crit (which means a kill) and she has range, the ability to hit RES, and doesn't have to mess around with a transform gauge (which is a HUGE thing! Banded Mordi only has ~40 attack when banded at max level which is low for a unit who doesn't crit, doesn't really use any special abilities, and doesn't even have range. Even ROLF can beat his attack when transformed and at least he's fast enough to double constantly).

Also, Ilyana may have poor durability, but Mordi can't counter-attack when unshifted. Neither of them will be taking hits most of the time, so his superior durability is for naught.

Oh really, well so is BEXP. Now can you name me what units seriously can use the Speedwings and not give a diminishing return, or are we going to point out the Captain Obvious?

Titania wouldn't mind one for the endgame (though if her SPD is high enough already is debatable), Boyd would like one, Ilyana would use them well for offense, one for Jill would probably help a lot when she's starting, Muarim would definatly make good use of it, and that's simply the units who would make immediate use of it. Also, what do you even mean by 'diminishing returns'? Units who would make good use of them throughout the game? Or units who you approve of using them?

There's also Smite, which once again is a big thing to talk about. Mordecai can fucking Shove / Smite Jill untransformed, which is pretty powerful to have. Now your mounted units can have about 10 / 11 Mov instead of the usual 8 / 9. Mordecai also gains another 2 Mov transformed, which means 9 Mov bad ass shoving machine. Pity that he can't Shove Haar, but that's the only unit of the damn game.

Except that's not the case. One unit gets up to 2 extra spaces for one turn in one direction if Mordi is close enough to them to smite them when he is untransformed. How much would you value Mordi if he didn't have Smite? How much would you value him with it? Is it really worth that much of a difference (for me, since I hold no value to smite, it's the same both ways, so yes)?

A 5% boost makes negligible difference. It would take 10 levels just to make it +50% growth. You're not really speeding up his Speed growth very quickly with it.

My rule of thumb for quick calculations is that it's 1 point in the stat for every 20 levels (yes, I know it's not right. I do this only when I need a quick answer. Sort of like how you know 1.05 X 1.05 is more than 1, but not 2 when asked on the spot). Regardless, it's a option Ilyana has (that gets her SPD up to about 23) that Mordi just doesn't get a bad deal on, but can't use at all if he uses the demiband (Lethe can at least try for kills during that short period when she's transformed naturally).

Untransformed Mordecai cannot shove promoted Jill. Transformed Mordecai can shove Jill and Haar.

Why would transformed Mordi be shoving in the first place? He should be out there fighting. He isn't a dancer. He doesn't provide dancer services. He doesn't even provide truly unique services. He's an awful unit through and through and gets doted on unfairly by people obsessed with low turncounts because he can provide one to two extra movement to the fliers. Utterly worthless.

[Frosty]

This guy is a powerhouse with access to +DEF and +ATK supports! He destroys things for quite a while!

Now, just imagine if you give this guy lots of Water affinity supports... OUCH~!

7.5

[ZemZem]

Huge mov, Smite, Water affinity, and pro offensive & defemsove stats. Mordecai is boss Laguz. He won't always double, but he generally isn't being doubled.

Solid brick powerhouse. Better & longer lasting than Lethe, but still no 2range, flying, or canto.

7.25.

My thoughts.

[Snapdragon]

Good attack and defense, as well as movement. He has the whole annoying laguz transformation thing but his doesn't suffer as much as lethe. He might have to wait to transform, but even then he can be used to smite units around, especially those who have issues keeping up otherwise.

6.5

Edited April 10, 2012 by Snapdragon

[ALEXANDER]

Pros:

Good supports

Smite

durable

High MOV

Awesome early game utility

Cons:

transformation bar crap

doubling issues

takes bonus dmg for being a laguz

only attacks at 1 range

7.75/10 (+0.75 for being a nice guy, but I don't think he deserves an 8)

Armor Knights' pitiful movement is the main reason I hate that class, so Mordy's whopping 9 MOV more than fixes that. Too bad he can't use the knight ward like they can to fix his speed issues. Oh, he also only works part time .

Smite can be fun and useful so he doesn't just sit there and derp for a few turns. The most obvious example of this would be smiting Ike (and shoving him a few more times) so you can recruit Astrid and Gatrie on the first turn of the chapter so you don't have to worry about Astrid dying during the enemy phase.

His transformation bar is annoying since it starts at 0, but he's durable enough, especially at the beginning, to take a few hits to bring it up while also luring enemies. At least he comes with a laguz stone, but you'll have to use it wisely.

I've never tried demi banding him, but from what I can tell from reading others' entries, it's a bad idea.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Mordecai, the warrior from Gallia. Doesnt like fighting and is a big softy.

Pros:

Smite is awesome.

Great base strength.

Tanky as fuck all.

Cons:

A little low on speed.

Transformation bar is slow.

Mordy is just pretty badass. I mean, he has utility on his side where he can smite people MOUNTED (untransformed!!!) and shiz. I mean, wow. Nice. Plus he can get his murder on rather well. Earlier in the game, hes doubling junk. Later on, not as much but most of the things he cant double are ravens, cats, and Swordies. Not too big of a deal because hes probably OHKOing them anyway. Things cant really hurt him unless its fire magic. If you are feeling generous, slap a speedwing on Mordy and watch the murder happen!

8/10. 9/10 bias because i love Mordy. Hes just such a cute character. Big ol' tiger whos all huge but is the biggest sweetheart ever. See his Mist support for details.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Florina

[aku chi]

Why would transformed Mordi be shoving in the first place? He should be out there fighting. He isn't a dancer. He doesn't provide dancer services. He doesn't even provide truly unique services. He's an awful unit through and through and gets doted on unfairly by people obsessed with low turncounts because he can provide one to two extra movement to the fliers. Utterly worthless.

Because Jill alone is more effective at combat than Jill and Mordecai together. I agree with you that Mordecai is overrated, but he is far from worthless: he provides a rare utility. And he does so for twenty chapters with zero resources (except to shove Jill or Haar, at which point he needs to borrow the Demi Band).

[Lord Raven]

5.5/10

better than Lethe at combat (despite not being transformed at beginning) but his Smite >>> her shove. he's easy to rescue, too.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Mercenary Raven

[Colonel M]

Warning - I did post this from my phone, so there might be some weird errors (like missing apostrophes).

Keep in mind that you were also giving Mordi his best natural SPD in the game (his 20/20 AS with full transform bonuses) with the point being that, by midgame, there are already enemies coming along whom he cannot double even at his best. He needs to be level 12-13 before he can reliably double an enemy with 12 AS with his full transform bonuses. I'm not going to say it's impossible to do, but if it does happen by that point I would be suspecting that the person isn't exactly playing fair.

We're not playing fair to begin with by using Mia and definitely with Ilyana. The main thing that I was pointing out was that enemy AS is still piss poor on a lot of enemies. Are there some too fast for Mordecai? Oh yes there is. But Mia misses 2HKOes and ORKOes without resources. So does Ilyana.

Suffice to say, I assumed Demi Band, a Speedwing, and BEXP was going his way. Now there are Laguz Stones too if we really want to get nitpicky, but I don't know if aku chi or company use it on Raisin Brand. Like Mia and Ilyana, Mordy still needs competed resources to fight well. To give such a significant amount of a high rating for Mia and Ilyana then go for a 3.5/10 for Mordy is a little off.

Furthermore, the biggest complaint I have is the minor hypocrisy that follows your vote. Okay, so you seem to sort of assume a not-really-that-efficient playthrough with 20/20 stats, so why does it matter that Mordecai takes about 2 "smart" turns to rip shit apart? Being a meatshield isn't all that bad for his short time. If you wanted and got Wrath later on, you could slap it on him, though I'm not completely sure how Demi Band works, so I'm not really assuming it.

The tl;Dr version is this: are we assuming efficient play on all ratings or a somewhat turtle pace? If its the former, I definitely demand a revote for Mia and Ilyana, since the former is only semi-efficient to a mountfest team and the latter is just plain retarded to train period.

Also, Ilyana's growth-rate doesn't really matter. What matters is that she will be having either the same or more SPD than Mordi (basically) for the majority of the game and yet still gets panned for it. I would say her offense is universally better than Mordi's as well. When they deliver one hit, Ilyana has a chance to crit (which means a kill) and she has range, the ability to hit RES, and doesn't have to mess around with a transform gauge (which is a HUGE thing! Banded Mordi only has ~40 attack when banded at max level which is low for a unit who doesn't crit, doesn't really use any special abilities, and doesn't even have range. Even ROLF can beat his attack when transformed and at least he's fast enough to double constantly).

Okay, so then if were ragging on Mordecai for having piss poor speed, then definitely reflect it on Ilyana. Her position is probably just as bad, if not worse. 30% growth, 9 base, and only gains +2 Spd on promotion. Now I'll be stupidly generous and assume the entire time she hogs the Spd band. In 10 levels, she has... 14.5 Spd. Now considering we were ragging on max Level Mordecai missing doubles, Ilyana isn't much better with it. Also, unlike Mordecai, Ilyana can barely take hits from enemies as her durability growth overall is assy. Finally, once again, I repoint 6 Mov back at her. So what if she can strike first turn? Chances are after a few chapters when Astrid joins, Ilyana is nothing more but extra baggage. Even if you promote her to heal, why have her heal when Rhys, your favorite unit, and Mist heal more (and Mist has Mov somewhat comparable to mounted units)?

Also, Ilyana may have poor durability, but Mordi can't counter-attack when unshifted. Neither of them will be taking hits most of the time, so his superior durability is for naught.

Wut?

Not only is the fucker an enemy magnet for that reason, he has 15 fucking Def. I can't really research it at the moment, but I'm sure most enemies at his join chapter are lucky to break past 20 and they're too goddamn slow to double. Don't give me shit on him not taking a hit.

Titania wouldn't mind one for the endgame (though if her SPD is high enough already is debatable),

1) Knight Ward exists.

2) If we can assume for some goddamn reason Mia can hit 20/20, so can Titania.

3) If there are few enemies that even break past 16 Spd... Well...

Boyd would like one,

Even though Boyd isn't a bad recipient, if we really want to assume Titania... shes more likely to get it with the extra Mov than Boyd is.

lyana would use them well for offense,

Yeah okay.

No.

ne for Jill would probably help a lot when she's starting,

Like Titania, fair enough.

Muarim would definatly make good use of it, and that's simply the units who would make immediate use of it.

1) It's definitely, not definately.

2) Maurim has 17 fucking Spd with a Demi Band and a 55% growth. You shitting me that he needs a Speedwing?

3) Immediate use!?! To what, DOUBLE MYRMIDONS?

Also, what do you even mean by 'diminishing returns'? Units who would make good use of them throughout the game? Or units who you approve of using them?

A combination of both. When it comes to offensive resources, we want the most bang for our buck. We want a unit who can use it the earliest, give great or greater returns immediately and continue chugging along afterwards with results.

Let's use Boyd vs Titania in this example. In Boyd's side, he can likely double some enemies now, and thus net ORKOes that Ike and Oscar struggle at. He still shows some results with this combat later, as he can double some enemies at 20/1 that he couldn't before. Titania is a unit with little RNG-screwage possibility, good growths to accompany her bases, Knight Ward to help her Spd growth more, and a mount. Now of course, the disadvantage is that she doesn't get immediate results mainly because shea already doubling and taking enemies by storm. It's just as simple as that.

So we weigh between the two on which technically has the least diminishing returns while assuming that we have another Speedwings on the way in Chapter 13. Some may argue Boyd as the favorable choice, while others will argue Titania, or another scenario occurs - we sit on the Speedwings for in favor of another unit like Jill.

So between the three characters which shows the least diminishing returns and when should each unit get theory item? Well, we can possibly throw Boyd out of the equation since the name of the game in FE9 is mount, heal, dance, or gtfo. We can conclude that, since Titania won't likely show a real Spd issue until later in the game, she can obtain Chapter 13s Speedwings and Jill gets Chapter 2s. On the other hand, we could debate Jill vs. Boyd if we wanted to because Boyd exists earlier in the game and gets good results behind it. Chances are, though, Boyd's diminishing returns are higher than Jill's.

You can possibly include anyone in the equation here, but the results are .more than likely the same. Even if you include Haar, his diminishing returns are greater than everyone else listed. Mordecai would also be low on this list. I merely wanted to see if you could even whip a semi legit list of units.

Except that's not the case. One unit gets up to 2 extra spaces for one turn in one direction if Mordi is close enough to them to smite them when he is untransformed. How much would you value Mordi if he didn't have Smite? How much would you value him with it? Is it really worth that much of a difference (for me, since I hold no value to smite, it's the same both ways, so yes)?

We don't play hypothetical FE in this situation. Mordecai will always have Smite unless the player is downright retarded. Thus, we value Mordecai with Smite. If you have 0 value for it, then don't be a hypocrite with scoring on a non-efficient basis. Smiting is awesome in plethora ways, and I'm sure aku chi can give good examples.

To give an honest rating, it would be probably a 5/10, maybe a 5.5. Requires no resources to Smite awesome units, and that says a lot in efficient playthroughs. Obviously his combat varies between playstyles. On yours, he can probably transform by Turn 3 and perform duties like normal. In an efficient playthrough, its likely either due to Laguz Stone or Demiband, and obviously Maurim is superior to Mordecai in every shape and way barring his Def is a little lower (who gives a fuck its still good).

Why would transformed Mordi be shoving in the first place? He should be out there fighting. He isn't a dancer. He doesn't provide dancer services. He doesn't even provide truly unique services. He's an awful unit through and through and gets doted on unfairly by people obsessed with low turncounts because he can provide one to two extra movement to the flier... Utterly useless.

Mia and Ilyana are doted by inefficient players because they're women and their combat is superfluous and they have shitty Mov and can't refresh units. Utterly useless.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Colonel M

[BBM]

Well, it's pretty fun to see Mia get attacked on EP, attack first, and OHKO them with a critical.

As for Mordecai, haven't used him yet. Dunno. Smiting was useful for Astrid. I imagine on that chapter with Naesala as an enemy, the ability to Smite Jill would come in handy, because it would allow you to get Naesala off the field quicker, and therefore make it easier to not kill any Ravens.

[Hawk King]

@Snowy - Haha you gave Lethe a fucking 7, and Mordy a 3?! Do you go out of your way to say stupid stuff just to make people argue with you?

PROS:

-High attack

-High movement

-Shoves/Smites stuff

CONS:

-Needs to wait 5 turns to transform

-Stuck with a weak weapon

-No 2 range attacks

-Has late/endgame issues

Mordy has smite utility, he shouldnt be a relied on for his combat. Early on he kills everything, but just like Lethe, he gets passed by all of your Beorc units. However, unlike Lethe, Mordy's shove/smite utility is never outclassed. If you have a deployment spot for him he can essentially "shadow" 5-6 move units allowing them to move 7 spaces each turn, and when transformed 7-8 move units can go 9.

4/10 - Shove/smite utility is always nice.

[Shadow Mir]

@Snowy - Haha you gave Lethe a fucking 7, and Mordy a 3?! Do you go out of your way to say stupid stuff just to make people argue with you?

Considering how he dotes on his precious Rhys... I can't say I'm surprised in the least.

[Snowy_One]

We're not playing fair to begin with by using Mia and definitely with Ilyana. The main thing that I was pointing out was that enemy AS is still piss poor on a lot of enemies. Are there some too fast for Mordecai? Oh yes there is. But Mia misses 2HKOes and ORKOes without resources. So does Ilyana.

How well Mia preforms is irrelivent to this discussion. Anyways, there is a big different between 'failure to ORKO' and 'failure to even do damage due to being untransformed'.

Suffice to say, I assumed Demi Band, a Speedwing, and BEXP was going his way. Now there are Laguz Stones too if we really want to get nitpicky, but I don't know if aku chi or company use it on Raisin Brand. Like Mia and Ilyana, Mordy still needs competed resources to fight well. To give such a significant amount of a high rating for Mia and Ilyana then go for a 3.5/10 for Mordy is a little off.

While I don't have a problem with the demi-band (odds are you are most likely going to have only one non-Reyson Laguz on the team anyways), the latter two are a problem. Other units need speedwings and there are only so many uses of the stones. Plus, using them, while it DOES help a lot, isn't a cure for his offensive problems. I will admit that, when he shifts right away, I would consider him a 6 or 7, but he will eventually will shift back (still wouldn't consider him a 8 by a loooooongshot).

Furthermore, the biggest complaint I have is the minor hypocrisy that follows your vote. Okay, so you seem to sort of assume a not-really-that-efficient playthrough with 20/20 stats, so why does it matter that Mordecai takes about 2 "smart" turns to rip shit apart? Being a meatshield isn't all that bad for his short time. If you wanted and got Wrath later on, you could slap it on him, though I'm not completely sure how Demi Band works, so I'm not really assuming it.

Two 'smart' turns? Do you mean turns where we let enemies wail on Mordi to boost his gauge up? Yea. No. You would have to be mentally deficient to intentionally let the enemy wail on any unit for the sake of boosting the gauge up, especially if you were trying to argue that they were good. Oh hey! Let's let the enemy attack Rolf for 2 turns because on the third turn he gains the ability to counter at 1 range! What? That's an outright stupid idea and even if he could survive it without issues it wouldn't boost him up from his position? Oh my!

Okay, so then if were ragging on Mordecai for having piss poor speed, then definitely reflect it on Ilyana. Her position is probably just as bad, if not worse. 30% growth, 9 base, and only gains +2 Spd on promotion. Now I'll be stupidly generous and assume the entire time she hogs the Spd band. In 10 levels, she has... 14.5 Spd. Now considering we were ragging on max Level Mordecai missing doubles, Ilyana isn't much better with it. Also, unlike Mordecai, Ilyana can barely take hits from enemies as her durability growth overall is assy. Finally, once again, I repoint 6 Mov back at her. So what if she can strike first turn? Chances are after a few chapters when Astrid joins, Ilyana is nothing more but extra baggage. Even if you promote her to heal, why have her heal when Rhys, your favorite unit, and Mist heal more (and Mist has Mov somewhat comparable to mounted units)?

I was unaware that Ilyana was incapable of attacking at all for multiple turns when she was fielded and lacked any utility outside of her combat. Ilyana may not be very durable, but, it doesn't matter. Why? Because neither Ilyana or an untransformed Mordi will be put in the line of direct fire by anyone with half a noggen on their heads! So what if Ilyana only has 6 movement, you're big thing that Mordi can do while untransformed is freaking SMITE! I'd gladly take killing a few enemies over, like, two turns of usage per map pre-demi and a healer over another meatshield when I have the paladins and fliers around. Oh hey look, more units who completely outclass and make Mordi completely irreverent.

Not only is the fucker an enemy magnet for that reason, he has 15 fucking Def. I can't really research it at the moment, but I'm sure most enemies at his join chapter are lucky to break past 20 and they're too goddamn slow to double. Don't give me shit on him not taking a hit.

Why do I need a enemy magnet? Especially one who doesn't deal damage in return? I'd much rather stick a mounted unit out there and pull back any unit I don't want getting attacked than letting multiple enemies live when they would have died if they had gone after Oscar instead.

A combination of both.

Then anything you say on this discussion is irrelevant. Oh hey! I have a new definition for 'good unit'! Any unit who wouldn't be mistaken for a furry! Sorry Reyson, Lethe, Mordi, Muarim, Laguz kings, hawks, and Zihark. You're all useless because stats don't matter. Only what I define as good matters.

Well, we can possibly throw Boyd out of the equation since the name of the game in FE9 is mount, heal, dance, or gtfo.

So this isn't 'well I disagree with your opinions and I have reasons to back them up' it's 'well your opinion doesn't match with my playstyle, so everything you say is stupid and irreverent and shouldn't be counted even though this is an open rating topic'.

We don't play hypothetical FE in this situation. Mordecai will always have Smite unless the player is downright retarded. Thus, we value Mordecai with Smite. If you have 0 value for it, then don't be a hypocrite with scoring on a non-efficient basis. Smiting is awesome in plethora ways, and I'm sure aku chi can give good examples.

So... You can't imagine a situation where Mordi doesn't have smite to compare to the situations where he does to determine just how much it's worth and instead you assume it is instant awesome? Scientists must love you (note: the word 'Scientist' here is not the English word and is rather part of an obscure dialect spoken by the long-extinct rhino-pygmys from Pluto where it means 'Witch Doctor'. Apologies if there is any confusion with actual scientists).

Mia and Ilyana are doted by inefficient players because they're women and their combat is superfluous and they have shitty Mov and can't refresh units. Utterly useless.

Mia and Ilyana are used properly by people who are not obsessed with speed and who don't have resources with-held from them by people whose sole focus in the game is to score as low a turncount as possible.

Haha you gave Lethe a fucking 7, and Mordy a 3?! Do you go out of your way to say stupid stuff just to make people argue with you?

Lethe transforms early, fights well in the early and mid game, and goes obsolete once the average weapon upgrades from steel to silver due to poor claws. If her claws upgraded to a silver equiv I suspect she would likely be a 9/10 unit on a lot of peoples lists. Mordi is a slow unit who struggles to transform and whose only real value comes in smiting one unit per turn to give them 2 more movement which is utterly irreverent to anyone not obsessed with speed.