89 replies to this topic

[Rehab]

Well, there have definitely been gay characters in games long before Ike (regardless of his sexuality), though it's true that they were very rarely main characters and often played for laughs, if not completely stereotyped. IIRC Persona 2 gave players the option of having the male MC romancing a male party member in 1999, though that game might not be as famous as FE9/10, and of course there's Kanji from Persona 4, though he's neither the main main character nor a blank slate.

As it stands, I think it would be kind of interesting if Ike were gay, but I don't really think the evidence is strong enough to say, "here was a groundbreaking character," at least not analogous to Samus. It might be part of your point that the game didn't harp on his thoughts about it and showed him kicking ass without making a conflict of sexual identity part of his development, but in Samus' case, it was at least made very clear that she was really female. We weren't quite treated to a pixellated make-out scene with Ike and Soren or Ranulf just as the credits rolled. Even if they're all as gay as they come, which I don't think is impossible, and even if Ike really did take a male lover after FE10, I don't think it was portrayed such that I would remember Ike for it. I can't say the same for Samus.

edit: >there was only a single post here when i started typing

Edited by Rehab, 10 April 2012 - 06:30 PM.

[Aere]

I think you guys are thinking too far into this. Most characters don't have their sexuality stated, and are easily left up to the player's imagination if they don't have marriages in their endings. I think IS's supports, or at least some of them, are strong bonds that are forged between the characters. Lucius and Raven are the closest thing each other has for family, disregarding Priscilla; the two are definitely as close as brothers. Soren isn't gay for Ike, nor is Ranulf; While I never really understood Ranulf's desire to leave Tellius, Ike is the sole reason Soren remains with the GMs.

In short, most characters are ambiguous (as Anouleth put it) and their sexuality was probably never initially thought of anyway.

[Elieson]

It doesn't have to be sexually motivated. Someone can just as easily be homoromantic. The amount of gay subtext in this series is so blatant that denying it is pretty much insulting. Its one of the things that I absolutely adore about Fire Emblem.

I wouldn't deny it. Heather screams it.

But I think it's silly to assume that a character is gay simply for really enjoying the company of another of the same gender.

How long had Ike known Soren and Boyd (his little sisters' love interest)? How much of an impact did meeting Ranulf bring onto Ike's life? It's only natural to want to maintain communication/socialization with someone that has made an impact on your life.

Raven saved Lucius from prison (essentially). Lyn gave Florina a sense of responsibility, courage, and empowerment. Both feel obligated to share their lives with the other. Legault said that he and Heath were made for eachother. I have said that to other males in my life, with an obvious hint of sarcasm behind the words.

I won't deny the LGBT personalities that appear in these games, but I think that one could easily argue both sides without being necessarily wrong, since there is no proof of lots of homosexual/homoerotic activity in these games.

[Sangyul]

I agree with Elieson. Perhaps there are some elements of homosexuality in some of the things that the characters say and do. But there is also such thing as running away with it, which I've seen a lot of people do. Sometimes, everything boils down to just really strong friendships. Some guys are more familiar expressing themselves emotionally towards other men. Some women just ... well, are closer to women and guys. So it could be something ... or it could be nothing at all.

[Sophia Aetheria]

Sophia, while I'm not going to get into a discussion on whether Florina may be lesbian or not, I want to point out that her "I love you!" towards Lyn was not, to me, "plain as day in a context that completely screamed romance". I've heard girls say that to each other, when they're overexcited or just really happy about something. In other words, it did not stand out to me as anything romantic.

Well, its true that sort of thing happens... girls who are incredibly shy generally don't do that sort of thing. I've known known a girl who is quiet and shy to just exclaim I love you to someone out of excitement before, nor have I ever done that. I've seen that happen when it comes to actual romantic feelings though, under the guise of being that sort of seemingly normal excitement, with a hope that the target picks up on how out of character it is for them and inquires further. Or maybe I'm just projecting again. I guess when someone has an attachment to an aspect of something like this, its because they are projecting?




At any rate... To discuss a two more characters... Ike and Soren come to mind, as per the topic's initial post. This is more a lifelong friends turned lovers sort of thing, and its surprisingly common among lasting homosexual relationships. I've met more than a few people and have even some friends who ended up with their dearest childhood friend after everything else in the world proved to be lacking the merit of a true friend. Soren was found by Ike when he was a child. Their destinies were eternally intertwined, and Ike's endless idealism only strengthened that bond. Soren is almost yandere for Ike, and this is especially noticeable in the early parts of Path of Radiance, when Soren is cold to anyone who perceives to be potentially threatening to Ike. Very much his way of saying... This one is mine, and if you touch him, I'll make certain you regret it. Throughout everything that happens, Soren remains by Ike's side, and pretty much never leaves it. So long as he has Ike, he doesn't need anyone else. And Ike accepts this and continues to stand up for Soren no matter who puts him down. The ending in which Ike and Soren leave Tellius is very telling of a life partners relationship, even if it isn't sexual at all. As I stated before, its perfectly possible to be homoromantic without being homosexual. Many asexuals are plenty romantic, they just lack aesthetic attraction and sexual desire for others.

And of course then we have Raven and Lucius... Lucius appearance itself is pretty much tailor made to inspire gender-confusion for the player, and the dialogue between the two really only suggests something a little more than just friendship. There's examples elsewhere in the thread that cement it in my book.

Edited by Sophia Aetheria, 10 April 2012 - 06:28 PM.

[Chalis]

Oh cool. Someone says they love another person, so it must be sexual

Someone also says they want to spend more time with another person. Obviously, that has to mean they want to break their bones.

I mean, why, under any circumstances, would a person (well, in this case, a unit), consider spending time with another outside of their current adventure unless there was a sexual reason behind it?

yeah this
except, you know, fixed

Persona 2 is the only example I can think of that handled this well when it came to non ambiguity. The protagonist has all of the same faults and relationships he's had with his friends regardless of who he is personally romantically involved with.

[Bee]

FE5 also has the Marty ending:

Marty - The Man Whom Dagda Loved *

Marty returned to Purple Dragon Mountain and put his efforts into working the barren land. Many, especially children, loved his sheepish but kind nature.

I think there are some hints in some of the games (Raven/Lucius and Heather being the first that come to mind), but most of the time, I believe Nintendo leaves it to the interpretation of the player to decide if the characters are homosexual or just very close friends.

[Hyde]

lol

Marty's ending doesn't imply homosexuality at all. That could easily be intended to mean that Dagda loves Marty like a son.

[kdanger]

A lot of characters just never have their preference stated, which is fine. When nothing is stated, though, I think most people (especially straight people) tend to just assume straight until proven or at least implied otherwise, which parallels assumptions made in real life. FE certainly does seem to have more implied queer characters than other series, but I can't think of any cases besides Heather where the implication borders on solid proof. In any case implications are not really anything groundbreaking. If Ike were canonically stated to be gay, then we'd have something uncommon on our hands, but he never is.

It certainly couldn't hurt to have more characters in gaming in general who are just sort of casually noted to be gay, or bi, or trans, or asexual, etc, and then just be completely normal about it, since, y'know, queer people are in fact normal people and decent representation is a good thing in general. I can't really say that FE does that, but maybe it's closer than some series.

[Snapdragon]

I personally consider Ike either asexual or pansexual. Either way his relationship with Soren comes off as romantic to me. But, to each their own. I don't see why sexuality can't be implied even if not blatant. As for Homosexuality in other games... wasn't there a Star Wars Game where if you were a girl your character could be a lesbian? And from what I've heard the voice actors of Metal Gear Solid have played quite a few of the scene's between Otacon and Snake as love scenes.

[Sophia Aetheria]

I personally consider Ike either asexual or pansexual. Either way his relationship with Soren comes off as romantic to me. But, to each their own. I don't see why sexuality can't be implied even if not blatant. As for Homosexuality in other games... wasn't there a Star Wars Game where if you were a girl your character could be a lesbian? And from what I've heard the voice actors of Metal Gear Solid have played quite a few of the scene's between Otacon and Snake as love scenes.

That would be Knights of the Old Republic, which was a BioWare game. BioWare is pretty much the forerunner and premier supporter of sexuality equality in games, with any of their games that have gender choices on the part of the player allowing for homosexual relationships with characters within their works. And, their developers will even totally thrash anyone who thinks that this is a bad idea with a scorning post about how they are just sexually insecure. Its kind of awesome. Dragon Age 2's homosexual options recently resulted in a rather hilarious and awesome exchange between a homophobe and an amazing developer.

[Snapdragon]

A lot of characters just never have their preference stated, which is fine. When nothing is stated, though, I think most people (especially straight people) tend to just assume straight until proven or at least implied otherwise, which parallels assumptions made in real life. FE certainly does seem to have more implied queer characters than other series, but I can't think of any cases besides Heather where the implication borders on solid proof. In any case implications are not really anything groundbreaking. If Ike were canonically stated to be gay, then we'd have something uncommon on our hands, but he never is.

It certainly couldn't hurt to have more characters in gaming in general who are just sort of casually noted to be gay, or bi, or trans, or asexual, etc, and then just be completely normal about it, since, y'know, queer people are in fact normal people and decent representation is a good thing in general. I can't really say that FE does that, but maybe it's closer than some series.

^
This so much. In media in general, especially video games, homosexuality is largely used foreither
a) "Ew! That villian is soooo evul he totally wants to do nasty stuff with the main character!"
b) lol gay stereotypes are funny
c) Occasionally fan-service. This is more typical with lesbians because female viewers are presumed to either not exist or have no sexuality.

I think it's actually worse for video games because our society is still kind of living under the assumption that video games are for guys (and children). It would be refreshing to see a prominent gay character whose entire premise wasn't "I'm gay" and all the drama that usually entails, as opposed to being just a characteristic, like blond, or jewish.

That would be Knights of the Old Republic, which was a BioWare game. BioWare is pretty much the forerunner and premier supporter of sexuality equality in games, with any of their games that have gender choices on the part of the player allowing for homosexual relationships with characters within their works. And, their developers will even totally thrash anyone who thinks that this is a bad idea with a scorning post about how they are just sexually insecure. Its kind of awesome. Dragon Age 2's homosexual options recently resulted in a rather hilarious and awesome exchange between a homophobe and an amazing developer.

Oh, wow! That's amazing! (Any chance you can point me in the direction of this exchange?)

Edited by Snapdragon, 10 April 2012 - 07:03 PM.

[Zeem]

I think you guys are thinking too far into this. Most characters don't have their sexuality stated, and are easily left up to the player's imagination if they don't have marriages in their endings. I think IS's supports, or at least some of them, are strong bonds that are forged between the characters. Lucius and Raven are the closest thing each other has for family, disregarding Priscilla; the two are definitely as close as brothers. Soren isn't gay for Ike, nor is Ranulf; While I never really understood Ranulf's desire to leave Tellius, Ike is the sole reason Soren remains with the GMs.

In short, most characters are ambiguous (as Anouleth put it) and their sexuality was probably never initially thought of anyway.

I agree with all of this.

[sunshinesan]

Ahh yes, Lucius and Raven, how could I have forgotten that.

...well, I'd like to point out something that was very common until the LGBT community actually stood up for itself. Perfectly gay girls ended up being forced into relationships with way too forward men all of the time in the past. The relationship between Hector is so one-sided that it hurts, so honestly, I feel that's basically how it goes. She being shy and relatively helpless when not around Lyn results in her just going along with Hector's advances until marriage, and even after said marriage, still preferring to be around Lyn, who is conveniently one of Hector's close friends.

I like that pairing... The two might have nothing in common, but that's what make it cute, in a sense. Though you propose a very dramatic scenario, though I think in this case, you might be looking too far into it.

I think you guys are thinking too far into this. Most characters don't have their sexuality stated, and are easily left up to the player's imagination if they don't have marriages in their endings. I think IS's supports, or at least some of them, are strong bonds that are forged between the characters. Lucius and Raven are the closest thing each other has for family, disregarding Priscilla; the two are definitely as close as brothers. Soren isn't gay for Ike, nor is Ranulf; While I never really understood Ranulf's desire to leave Tellius, Ike is the sole reason Soren remains with the GMs.

In short, most characters are ambiguous (as Anouleth put it) and their sexuality was probably never initially thought of anyway.

There is definitely some "taking it and running away with it" mentality in the fanbase. Though this doesn't rule out all support endings as actual romantic relationships. The most running away I can think of is definetely the pokemon series, where every character is paired with every character with no evidence whatsoever... the series aimed particularly at little kids. I mean, we have random gym leader x random gym leader, same sex or not, and they all have like 3 lines of dialogue and never met each other.

[Aquaman]

Personally, I think that Ike is just completely oblivious to any sort of affection towards him, except for sibling bonds with Mist.

Now, alot of this is just speculation, so we may be ALL wrong.

[Agro]

Actually... Yuri and yaoi are common in Japan because homosexual relationships aren't looked down upon at all, really. In fact, Japan works essentially the same was as ancient Greece. Girls can run with girls and boys can run with boys, and in fact, its /expected/ for this to happen. Its only once people get older that the expectation for them to have a heterosexual marriage comes in, and that's just for children. Marrying sheerly out of love is still a relatively new thing in Japan. The younger generation of Japanese are also kind of flipping this expectation on their head, especially when you consider how widespread yuri and yaoi serials are, and how the most popular yuri serial, Yuri-hime, has a 3/4ths female subscriber base.

I've actually talked about this with my friends in Japan, and from what I've seen, that isn't the case. Homosexuality is generally accepted in fiction, largely due to its heavy romanticisation (I just made that word up): homo relationships and hetero relationships are practically the same; one person ends up being the "girl" in the relationship and the other the "man" (excuse me for gender stereotyping). They're often born out of admiration for each other rather than sexual feelings, stemming from ancient Samurai practises which are a complete misrepresentation of relationships altogether.

Reality, however, is quite different. Homo-relationships of most kinds are still quite uncommon and seen as a little weird, and people aren't as uncaring about them as you might think.

[Celice]

That being said, there's still an awful lot of homo stuff in Japanese lit, from what another student was telling me before.

land of the rising sun--no homo

[Fenrir]

My 2 cents on Ike's sexuality:

First thing I wanted to address was Ike/Soren, Soren is clingy to Ike obviously which you can take 1 of 2 ways. Soren and Ike's relationship involves a romance. Or, more likely that Soren was abandoned or hated by everyone in life and needs somebody like Ike to be around and he's just friends with him, I have dealt with other dudes like this.(Soren and Stefan can make a country together if they are A support at end of RD, does that mean they are romantically interested? It could, but isn't likely) I highly doubt Soren provides any evidence to this claim. Second thing, he runs off with Ranulf possibly, I really never ever caught anything between these two except they were just naturally really good friends. This could feed speculation that they had sexual relations, doesn't actually seem too far fetched, but it's still far fetched. I doubt Ranulf was gay, but we're all just speculating here.(His denial of Lyre looks a lot like Ike's denial of Aimee. Lack of interest in certain annoying women =/= interest in men)

Most of the rest of speculation is fueled by lack of relationship with Elincia and others, and stern denial of Aimee. Ike's about 18 in FE9 and 21 in FE10, he also happens to be a general in the most important war ever, is it so weird he doesn't care about sexual relations? Or because he doesn't act as many of us would(Get fame, get women) we should go, "OMGZ IKE IZ GAY!!!11?

We don't know anything for certain about Ike's sexuality but it appeared to me that he was most likely heterosexual. I think he said in a conversation with Aimee that down the line he wanted a wife and family, could be wrong on this though.

[Sangyul]

Soren and Stefan can make a country together if they are A support at end of RD

What? Is that true? I've never heard this before ...

[Hyde]

I'm pretty sure Stefan "creates" a country regardless of who he supports with.