206 replies to this topic

[Momo]

I dunno, this is the same game that introduced resetting your level for infinite leveling. Going on pure numbers alone might not be proof enough.

[Othin]

I dunno, this is the same game that introduced resetting your level for infinite leveling. Going on pure numbers alone might not be proof enough.

That does not change the patterns that appear to keep the game sane enough when not using unlimited encounters for free Exp. It seems to me that it's important for the game to maintain this so that it can be played with a progression typical to the series when the player desires, and provide enough of a strategic challenge when doing so. So far, the developers have worked towards creating a system where the characters and classes really do each have substantial, unique merits, rather than simply saying "fuck it" and tossing out bizarre nonsense results as would be necessary for the Troubadour --> Falcon Knight promotion.

We have yet to have any confirmed standard promotions in which one stat increases by more than +7 or in which more than two stats increase by more than +5. Troubadour --> Falcon Knight would gain +9 Skl and +5 or higher in three other stats. That is not within the bounds of what the game has given us reason to understand as reasonable, regardless of the practical purposes.

And the practical purposes are just part of my explanation.

Edited by Othin, 11 April 2012 - 02:56 PM.

[Griffen78]

They could always water down the gains...

[Othin]

They could always water down the gains...

No, they couldn't.

Stat changes from class changes in FE13, whether from a Master Seal or from a Change Seal, have always been the exact differences between the two classes' base stats. With all the wild class changing resulting from the Change Seals, preserving that system is necessary, as it was in FE11/12 with unlimited Reclassing.

If they were to create a special case, then in order to keep the Falcon Knight's stats from being screwed up by future class changes, they would need to change things so that Falcon Knights would be treated as having an entirely different set of base stats if they had promoted from Troubadour instead of from Pegasus Knight. And that's ridiculous; they would have instead made two entirely separate classes or just made the Falcon Knight's stats not so high in the first place.

It's just not possible. Not a conceivable possibility by any stretch of the imagination.

[Momo]

We have yet to have any confirmed standard promotions in which one stat increases by more than +7 or in which more than two stats increase by more than +5. Troubadour --> Falcon Knight would gain +9 Skl and +5 or higher in three other stats. That is not within the bounds of what the game has given us reason to understand as reasonable, regardless of the practical purposes.

I say again, you can level your characters infinitely. That is more ridiculous than those promotion gains.

[Othin]

I say again, you can level your characters infinitely. That is more ridiculous than those promotion gains.

And then I shall say again that this is not about what the player might have the option to do. Games are orderly and are programmed purposefully. Things do not just happen. If the developers were willing to throw random shit together regardless of logic because things don't matter if you grind, we would have already seen evidence of it. We have no evidence of any such thing.

If the developers are willing to toss around +9 promotion gains at random because players have the option to abuse other things, where are the +9 promotion gains among the classes we've seen, eh? From what we've seen, they only ever go up as high as +5 with a very good reason: mage classes promoting to a more armored hybrid class, Fighters promoting to the speedier Heroes, Cavaliers promoting to the specifically magic-resistant Paladins.

Back to your original claim, we have no proof that you can level your characters infinitely. We only know that you can keep leveling your characters as much as you have Change Seals to use on them. We have no proof that Change Seals ever become available in unlimited quantities. It may be a safe bet that they will be available infinitely in a postgame scenario, but in the main story, leveling may be very much capped. So not only are your leveling comments irrelevant regarding all but the most casual of playthroughs, they may not even be accurate regarding the main story at all. So we are left with utterly no reason to believe that your leveling comments would influence the developers' decisions by even the slightest margin.

[Velth]

And then I shall say again that this is not about what the player might have the option to do. Games are orderly and are programmed purposefully. Things do not just happen. If the developers were willing to throw random shit together regardless of logic because things don't matter if you grind, we would have already seen evidence of it. We have no evidence of any such thing.

If the developers are willing to toss around +9 promotion gains at random because players have the option to abuse other things, where are the +9 promotion gains among the classes we've seen, eh? From what we've seen, they only ever go up as high as +5 with a very good reason: mage classes promoting to a more armored hybrid class, Fighters promoting to the speedier Heroes, Cavaliers promoting to the specifically magic-resistant Paladins.

Back to your original claim, we have no proof that you can level your characters infinitely. We only know that you can keep leveling your characters as much as you have Change Seals to use on them. We have no proof that Change Seals ever become available in unlimited quantities. It may be a safe bet that they will be available infinitely in a postgame scenario, but in the main story, leveling may be very much capped. So not only are your leveling comments irrelevant regarding all but the most casual of playthroughs, they may not even be accurate regarding the main story at all. So we are left with utterly no reason to believe that your leveling comments would influence the developers' decisions by even the slightest margin.

Likewise we have no proof that the base stats you presented earlier are actually the base stats of the classes, you merely derived to that conclusion by guessing and looking at the scans.So let me clear this up for you. There is no real evidence from the game that what you say is true you are merely speculating - don't present speculation as fact.
And if I'm mistaken and those numbers do exist then please by all means point me to their direction.

[Othin]

Troubadour / Pegasus Knight: http://serenesforest...img/150312B.jpg
Falcon Knight: http://serenesforest...img/290312B.jpg

My source is the stat wheel displayed in the description of each class, next to the appropriate characters. Starting at the top and going clockwise, the stats are Strength, Defense, Skill, Magic, Resistance, and Speed. Not sure why they're in that order, but that is absolutely what the symbols mean.

To calibrate my analysis of those stat wheels, I used these two scans:

http://serenesforest...g/16022012C.jpg
http://serenesforest...img/070312C.jpg

You may notice that for Cavalier, the Defense section of the wheel meets the edge of the first circle exactly. Meanwhile, for Great Knight, the Defense section meets the end of the second circle exactly, the largest jump. Defense is also the largest promotion gain from Cavalier --> Great Knight, at +7, as seen in the second scan. From this, I was able to determine that each section means 7 points of the base stat.

I won't bore you with the details, but I confirmed this analysis with thorough comparisons of the other stats. Feel free to see for yourself; the differences from class changes always line up perfectly with the differences between the distances on the stat wheels on a 0-14 scale. (Generals' Def breaks the scale at 15, poking just outside the second circle.) So through comparisons and careful examination, I found those as the base stats for those classes. They are correct. For these, the scans were clear enough that there can be no question of it.

Stat changes from class changes always mirror the changes in base stats perfectly, in a system like this. It is the only thing that will allow Reclassing to work properly. My investigations confirm those stat wheels to be an accurate representation of the classes' base stats on such a scale. And even if you aren't concerned with the exact numbers, observe the huge leaps in base stats from Troubadour to Falcon Knight - compared to the far more reasonable leaps from Pegasus Knight to Falcon Knight, as Pegasus Knight is ahead of Troubadour in every stat - often far ahead. You don't need the numbers to see this.

Edited by Othin, 11 April 2012 - 04:18 PM.

[OldMan]

>There's no way they'd do something so broken in a game that allows infinite leveling!

[Leif]

>There's no way they'd do something so broken in a game that allows infinite leveling!

As Othin said, there could be unlimited Change Seals for a post-game scenario. This probably isn't a possibility for a main story playthrough.

Edited by Leif, 11 April 2012 - 04:30 PM.

[Melonhead]

The animations are cool, exept for the Magic units. Kinda look... weak.

I'm just having problems with the units themselves... Don't look very Fire Emblemy. The look short, fat, and way too much clothes. Aside from that, really cool. I wanted Playable soldiers though :C

[Othin]

>There's no way they'd do something so broken in a game that allows infinite leveling!

read

As Othin said, there could be unlimited Change Seals for a post-game scenario. This probably isn't a possibility for a main story playthrough.

If there's a possibility of unlimited Change Seals ingame, it'll almost certainly require abuse of online shops or Streetpass shops or whatever else, and therefore be a pain no matter what. Any (Secret) shop availability will likely be limited, as in FE11/12, and like FE10's Bargain system: it's a sort of system the series appears to have taken a liking to.

[Leif]

The animations are cool, exept for the Magic units. Kinda look... weak.

I'm just having problems with the units themselves... Don't look very Fire Emblemy. The look short, fat, and way too much clothes. Aside from that, really cool. I wanted Playable soldiers though :C

Think of it as a stylistic change. I am not a fan of the designs myself (I believe that FE4, FE5 and FE10 had the best designs in the series), but it's just IS trying to take a risk and attempt something different.
I am just glad they are paying homage to other great games like FE4 and FE5 by having Mage Knights, Staff using Falcoknights, etc.

[Emperor Hardin]

Troubadors probably get Mage/Dark Knight just like in Sacred Stones which seems to have influenced many branched promotions.

[TheGreatOld]

Master Lords gets spears? I might to reconsider who to pair MU up with...

[OldMan]

As Othin said, there could be unlimited Change Seals for a post-game scenario. This probably isn't a possibility for a main story playthrough.

That sounds like a scam, however. "Level your characters freely!" is a selling point of this game... and have we even confirmed the presence of postgame yet?

[LeaderR Elliot]

Why people are saying that Mages critical animations are weak? since most of the time are like that... What were people expecting from them anyway?

Edited by LeaderR Elliot, 11 April 2012 - 04:50 PM.

[Othin]

Troubadors probably get Mage/Dark Knight just like in Sacred Stones which seems to have influenced many branched promotions.

Dark Knight uses swords/tomes with no access to staffs.

Valkyrie is the only horse-mounted class in FE13 with access to staffs.

That sounds like a scam, however. "Level your characters freely!" is a selling point of this game... and have we even confirmed the presence of postgame yet?

Leveling them up to LV40 or LV60 is quite free, just not unlimited. And I haven't seen it made into that major of a point.

Postgame seems like a safe assumption. Tell me: outside of postgame, where could unlimited Change Seals come from? None of the options possible entirely ingame sound all that plausible.

[Emperor Hardin]

Dark Knight uses swords/tomes with no access to staffs.

Valkyrie is the only horse-mounted class in FE13 with access to staffs.

Outside of the unlikely scenario that there's a new class we haven't seen before, it looks Troubadors will be the first class to promote out of a mount.

[Othin]

Outside of the unlikely scenario that there's a new class we haven't seen before, it looks Troubadors will be the first class to promote out of a mount.

THEY EAT IT TO GAIN ITS STRENGTH