125 replies to this topic

[dondon151]

It doesn't matter when the opponent can't kill you in a timely manner, while you're dishing out damage by existing.

but you're being slow at it and you're taking damage, which you have to heal off, and that's slow

If you're that worried about Speed, it learns Thunder Wave via TM.

that doesn't solve its speed problem

it's about as fast to gum at someone faster than you than to paralyze him first, then gum him, unless you get a full paralysis

[Helios]

Plenty of Steel types learn Electric moves, such as Klink and even Durant (funnier considering the basketball player with the same name plays for the Oklahoma Thunder). Considering it also comes in an electric cave, that makes a bit of sense.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of Kevin Durant (he's one of my favorite players and I'm a big fan of him) when I see the pokemon, and loled so hard when he was able to learn Thunder.

I was going to argue against Archen, but it seems like Defeatist was proven to be not as big of a drawback because of his sheer power anyway, so I have nothing else to say really.

[eclipse]

but you're being slow at it and you're taking damage, which you have to heal off, and that's slow


that doesn't solve its speed problem

it's about as fast to gum at someone faster than you than to paralyze him first, then gum him, unless you get a full paralysis

Last I checked this wasn't a ranking based off of speed.

[Espinosa]

Speed is about as important in Pokemon as it is in Fire Emblem, though. If you're fast and have strong attacks with good coverage, you use an X Attack/Special and beat the problematic trainer.

[eclipse]

Speed isn't everything, or Liepard would be a hell of a lot higher (and, uh, don't move it. . .it's fine where it is. . .)

[grandjackal]

Speed isn't everything, or Liepard would be a hell of a lot higher (and, uh, don't move it. . .it's fine where it is. . .)

I am using Ferrathorn in my current runthrough, and I'm telling you that speed is a harsh mistress to this mon, especially Ferroseed who has shit for offensive stats. Evolving to have Steel/Grass coverage in Gyro Ball and Power Whip isn't THAT good. More than speed works against it. Accuracy is another factor. The fact it's slow so is just another minor thing, since it means it's durability is more finite than mons that can just straight sweep an opponent.

While I would say that Ferrathorn isn't bad, it's not good either. If we're also accounting for Ferroseed, Ferroseed sucks on toast.

EDIT: Why the hell is Dwebble so high?

Edited by grandjackal, 21 April 2012 - 06:22 AM.

[Manix]

wrt Dwebble: I've used it before, and it's actually pretty good. It's workable until it evolves, and then you get Shell Smash. It's capacity to sweep is stupid (with Shell Smash), and it's coverage is quite good as well. I think it's fine where it is.

[Merry Sioux]

Sure Purrloin isn't great, but does it really deserve to be a tier below Heatmor who shares like 1/10th of its availability?

[dondon151]

Speed isn't everything, or Liepard would be a hell of a lot higher (and, uh, don't move it. . .it's fine where it is. . .)

way to miss the point

the difference between liepard and like, i dunno, nidoking (let's pretend that nidoking is in this game) is that the latter has good speed to complement excellent offense

[Bluedoom]

Any reason why Joltik and Blitzle are a tier apart? They're both electric pokemon, Blitzle would've probably been evolved by the time you have Joltik, both do well against Skyla(and Zebstrika is more durable to boot) and it also has flame charge against Brycen and Burgh. Not to mention it does pretty good against Elesa's Emolga. Zebstrika also has a small defensive advantage over Galvantula.

Now granted Galvantula has a slightly better variety and such, I don't think Signal beam/Poison Jab should be what makes these two a tier apart.

[Orange Crush]

Zebstrika is sorta mediocre. As Blitzle, its durability is very lacking and its not strong enough to make up for it. Evolving helps, but by then Flame Charge is getting really weak and that's his only coverage move (besides normal attacks).

Whereas Joltik joins right before the flying gym, and then he evolves and takes off. CE Thunder + Signal Beam is a very powerful combination backed up by Galvantula's good stats.

[Merry Sioux]

Blitzle and Zebstrika's durability leaves something to be desired, this includes their offense too

Edited by Psycho Silver, 21 April 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[General James]

Any reason why Joltik and Blitzle are a tier apart? They're both electric pokemon, Blitzle would've probably been evolved by the time you have Joltik, both do well against Skyla(and Zebstrika is more durable to boot) and it also has flame charge against Brycen and Burgh. Not to mention it does pretty good against Elesa's Emolga. Zebstrika also has a small defensive advantage over Galvantula.

Now granted Galvantula has a slightly better variety and such, I don't think Signal beam/Poison Jab should be what makes these two a tier apart.

Orange Crush might have explained this already, but I see a few cons with Blitzle. First off, its durability is complete ass. Because, let's face it, 45HP/32Def/32SpD isn't going to hold out against a whole lot(Joltik has only marginally better durability, but Galvantula loses durability to Zebstrika), and Blitzle is not an offensive god like Archen(who, believe it or not, has better durability than Blitzle). Yeah, early Flame Charge helps, but that's literally ALL it has for coverage(other than lolNormal), whereas Joltik, while joining later, has STAB Signal Beam at Lv34(2 levels before he evolves; which is a LOT more potent than Flame Charge at that point in the game)to work with, as well as Compoundeyes Thunder through TM25(which is gotten soon after Skyla), which is pretty hax, while Zebstrika has to rely on either Spark or Wild Charge for his STAB, the former of which is a tad weak as a main STAB and the latter causing recoil, which in turn uses up healing items, and doesn't learn naturally until lv47.

Now I'm not saying that Joltik is without his cons(joins somewhat late, has rather pathetic offense before evo), but I found that Galvantula's late game contributions are a bit more profound that Blitzle's early game performance(he trolls Elesa's Emolgas, and can do some damage against Burgh with Flame Charge, but after Skyla, his days are basically numbered)

Let me see what the community thinks on Blitzle, and I may consider upping his tier placement or lowering Joltik's.

Edited by Mercenary James, 21 April 2012 - 09:54 AM.

[frat_tastic]

I don't think Joltik has anything to offer that could possibly put it a tier over Blitzle. Blitzle joins early with great speed and good offense with enough coverage to stay relevant. I definitely don't see Joltik a tier over Blitzle. They should like switch places on the tier list.

Is it just me or does this list look like it takes a lot of meta-game stuff into account over in-game stuff? Sawk being high makes sense for in-game but stuff like the Archeops hype and the massive Ferrothorn hype make it look like too much meta-game stuff is being taken into account. Maybe I'm wrong though.

[Levant Fortner]

Why exactly is Tepig a tier above Oshawott? I'm not really seeing what Tepig has to offer that'd warrant a tier gap.

[Espinosa]

Why exactly is Tepig a tier above Oshawott? I'm not really seeing what Tepig has to offer that'd warrant a tier gap.

It evolves into its 2nd tier fire/fighting form right before the normal-type gym, and also has access to Work Up and Flame Charge at that time, allowing it to set up on anything without the need for X items / while dishing out damage. Being dual fighting also gives it the strong STAB that is very helpful against many gyms and elites. Samurott only gets Swords Dance postgame.

Edited by Espinosa, 21 April 2012 - 01:27 PM.

[Anouleth]

I don't think Joltik has anything to offer that could possibly put it a tier over Blitzle. Blitzle joins early with great speed and good offense with enough coverage to stay relevant. I definitely don't see Joltik a tier over Blitzle. They should like switch places on the tier list.

Is it just me or does this list look like it takes a lot of meta-game stuff into account over in-game stuff? Sawk being high makes sense for in-game but stuff like the Archeops hype and the massive Ferrothorn hype make it look like too much meta-game stuff is being taken into account. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Archeops is actually terrible in the metagame because of entry hazards and priority. That stuff doesn't exist here... so it's easy to see why he'd be high ranked with his insane offensive stats.

[BamBamMan]

Besides, lol at any metagame tier list which has Larvesta at the very bottom.

[Levant Fortner]

It evolves into its 2nd tier fire/fighting form right before the normal-type gym, and also has access to Work Up and Flame Charge at that time, allowing it to set up on anything without the need for X items / while dishing out damage. Being dual fighting also gives it the strong STAB that is very helpful against many gyms and elites. Samurott only gets Swords Dance postgame.

Maybe, but IMO its poor offensive movepool holds it back; at least Oshawott gets Razor Shell (which is pretty powerful for an early attack, and STAB boosted to boot) at level 17, right when it evolves. Tepig is SOL in that regard.

[Doga Blockovich]

Flame Charge might be a bit weaker, but it comes off a higher attack stat (93/123 vs. 75/100) and is effective against more types. Moreover, you can make it last almost the entire game if you don't want Flamethrower, and Emboar will always appreciate the Speed boost to get really fast opponents (like Liepards).

As for his offensive movepool, I've said to you that Arm Thrust can destroy Boldores before they attack without Sturdy activating (And of course, you'll counter this with your silly "but what if it hits twice" when it usually takes three hits to kill them. I'll take a 70% of not getting a counter rather than eating one all the time), while the Fighting STAB is godly in this game with most of what Team Plasma uses having a Fighting weakness (literally only Trubbishes and Garbodors don't, they're rare, and typically come after you have Bulldoze).

Other than that? He has access to Defense Curl AND Rollout early on for a good offensive and defensive combo. TM wise, he has access through the main game to :

Return
STAB Brick Break
STAB Fire Blast
STAB Low Sweep
Scald
Bulldoze
Rock Slide
Poison Jab
Grass Knot
Wild Charge

I fail to see how that's a bad offensive movepool with that many typings.

Edited by Dio, 21 April 2012 - 02:11 PM.