125 replies to this topic

[General James]

Doing this because there wasn't a B/W tier list on this forum, or didn't see one.

Trade evos will be considered, but that is all trading will be used for. With this in mind, all trade evo Pokes are tiered with the assumption that they reach their final form. This may change, in which case, I will add '(no evo)', to the Poke's name and give him a lower placement(because, let's face it. Gurdurr and Boldore are nowhere near as good as Conkeldurr and Gigalith.)

Also, no discussion of Reshiram/Zekrom. I don't really want the story spoiled for people who inevitably have not played the game.

While this is supposed to be an 'efficient' tier list, this is not one for a speedrun. There is a difference, you know. However, you know the (Exca)drill: Pokemon that help you beat the game faster go up higher.

The tier list is being ordered.

SS Tier:
Sawk
Darumaka

S Tier:
Scraggy
Sandile
Tepig
Drilbur
Archen

A Tier:
Lilipup
Sigilyph
Oshawott
Timburr
Cobalion
Throh

B Tier:
Roggenrola
Petilil
Ducklett
Dwebble
Tirtouga
Panpour
Virizion
Axew
Deerling
Terrakion

C Tier:
Joltik
Blitzle
Sewaddle
Vanillite
Basculin
Tympole
Druddigon
Solosis
Gothita
Durant
Litwick
Pansage
Patrat
Venipede
Cottonee
Ferroseed
Smugleaf Snivy
Mincinno

D Tier:
Thundurus
Tornadus
Klink
Emolga
Bouffalant
Marcatus
Mienfoo
Golett
Elgyem
Pansear
Karrablast
Munna
Cubchoo
Frillish
Woobat

E Tier:
Heatmor
Pidove
Yamask
Alomomola
Audino
Cryogonal
Pawniard
Rufflet
Trubbish
Foongus
Stunfisk
Shelmet

F Tier:
Purrloin
Tynamo
Vullaby
Deino
Larvesta


Current Arguments:
Ferroseed up. (Quashed)
Tornadus up.
Drilbur down.
Lilipup up.
Archen down. (Quashed)
Joltik down. (Validated)
Tepig down.
Basculin down. (Validated)
Throh down.

Edited by Mercenary James, 25 April 2012 - 12:24 PM.

[dondon151]

where's deerling

[Manix]

Lillipup is defs not A Tier. It should be at least S Tier, because it's offense is ridic throughout most of the game. From the very start. It's really strong with early Take Down, and it only gets better.

Sawk should be at the top, imo. It cleans out every gym quite easily with the right tools (the only one that's a problem is 3, and possibly 6). And has ridic stats for the entire game, only drifting out at the end.

There's probs more I can think of, but this'll do for now.

[Bluedoom]

I still vouch for Throh being above Sawk. It may be slow but it learns moves perfect for its spd stat. Throh's bide basically means it can take out a lot of 'boss' pokemon in the gyms. Its great at dealing with Watchog, Zebstrika, Haxorus, and perhaps it can deal with one of the pokemon in Skyla's gym too. Fighting types are also awesome for the league.(IMO any fighting type should at least be S tier, A tier at the least. Throh and Sawk belong in SS)

Edited by Marth, 12 April 2012 - 12:28 AM.

[Levant Fortner]

I still vouch for Throh being above Sawk. It may be slow but it learns moves perfect for its spd stat. Throh's bide basically means it can take out a lot of 'boss' pokemon in the gyms. Its great at dealing with Watchog, Zebstrika, Haxorus, and perhaps it can deal with one of the pokemon in Skyla's gym too. Fighting types are also awesome for the league.(IMO any fighting type should at least be S tier, A tier at the least. Throh and Sawk belong in SS)

Bide's pretty unreliable, really, since you're hoping your opponent actually attacks you in the interim, rather than buffing themselves or debuffing you...

Edited by Metal King Slime, 12 April 2012 - 12:35 AM.

[Bluedoom]

Bide's pretty unreliable, really, since you're hoping your opponent actually attacks you in the interim, rather than buffing themselves or debuffing you...

Dunno, I've always found bide reliable against the boss pokemon I mentioned. Also you could alternatively teach dig/payback for it to deal with certain pokemon, but eh.

[Levant Fortner]

Dunno, I've always found bide reliable against the boss pokemon I mentioned. Also you could alternatively teach dig/payback for it to deal with certain pokemon, but eh.

Ehhh, I just think hoping that you actually get attacked so you can return double the damage you took in the interim is not good strategy. I'd consider it better to just attack. Especially in Watchog's case - what good is Bide if you're asleep?

Edited by Metal King Slime, 12 April 2012 - 12:47 AM.

[General James]

I still vouch for Throh being above Sawk. It may be slow but it learns moves perfect for its spd stat. Throh's bide basically means it can take out a lot of 'boss' pokemon in the gyms. Its great at dealing with Watchog, Zebstrika, Haxorus, and perhaps it can deal with one of the pokemon in Skyla's gym too. Fighting types are also awesome for the league.(IMO any fighting type should at least be S tier, A tier at the least. Throh and Sawk belong in SS)

I'm going to agree with MKS and say that using Bide is not that good of an idea because you are setting yourself up to be attacked for two turns. Yeah,... this is not the type of strategy that I would want to use when clearing gym battles. And like he said as well, Watchog has Hypnosis, and it can and will use it while you are using Bide. That isn't exactly what you want happening.

Throh is staying where he is.

[grandjackal]

Comparing Sawk to Throh is no contest, Sawk wins hands down. Starting off with Double Kick and having actual speed along with Sturdy=awesome.

As for Lillipup, I agree he should move down. Take Down STAB is cute until you get to the point where that sort of thing is normal, which point he dies in usefulness immediately.

[eclipse]

Ferroseed is at least a tier too low. About the only thing that it doesn't like is Fire (Fighting's debatable, because of its massive Defense stat and Iron Barbs). It's got amazing Defense and respectable Special Defense. Slap Eviolite on it and watch it take very little damage (or just give it a Lucky Egg and have it level like mad). Once it evolves, it gets Power Whip, which dishes out amazing damage, even to things that resist it.

In-game, it can flip off Skyla (it's not dying unless Air Cutter crits, or you got a horrid nature) and it trivializes the Dragon gym. It's also my Pokemon of choice for dealing with Bouffalant (all of them).

[Manix]

As for Lillipup, I agree he should move down. Take Down STAB is cute until you get to the point where that sort of thing is normal, which point he dies in usefulness immediately.

1) I never said for it to move down, ever
2) And that point doesn't come until... much later. Return STAB hurts a lot, and Stoutland's stats are good until you reach the E4, at which point I agree, it's usefulness is limited. But until then, it's still very strong. Did I also mention early evolution?

[Levant Fortner]

I'm not really seeing Drilbur as belonging in SS tier when it doesn't start wrecking from the word go like Darumaka and Sawk do (if caught in Wellspring Cave, it has an awful earlygame until it gets Dig, and if not, you have to wait unil Chargestone Cave)... Also, what's Mienfoo doing so high?

[Sasori]

This looks like a good list, but I have one question. Why is Durant so high? it has great speed, defense and attack, but it is only available in the victory road. Is such a short time enough to put it in the top of the C tier?
Its moveset looks kind of meh as well.

[Anouleth]

This looks like a good list, but I have one question. Why is Durant so high? it has great speed, defense and attack, but it is only available in the victory road. Is such a short time enough to put it in the top of the C tier?

If you couldn't tell, the tiers are unordered.

[Sasori]

Oops sorry. Hahah I skipped right to the list,

[Colonel M]

I think Tornadus might have a small case to go to C Tier. It doesn't really require much to get Air Slash (43), and I think Focus Blast is possible to get (Wellspring Cave). Given those two moves alone in mind, that gives Tornadus a nice edge versus two of the four E4 members. Grass Knot is also easy to obtain for some extra coverage (Jellicent I guess... and Golurkmoar). I'll give you that its a late capture, but it does come pretty good out of the box with a little TM use.

[General James]

Updating to let you all know that the tier list is now ordered, so there is a semi balance of discussion. Have at it.

[eclipse]

ITT: None of our suggestions were taken. Thanks, TC.

[General James]

ITT: None of our suggestions were taken. Thanks, TC.

I have addressed that issue, and have put up a current arguments list. I will then review the cases, and deliver a statement on whether I and other debaters agree with this.

[eclipse]

What you missed:

Drilbur down.
Lilipup down.
Mienfoo down?