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Rate the Unit, Day 27: Muarim


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#1 Z.M.

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:04 PM

Dat Rules (stolen/borrowed from Integrity)
- Ratings are assumed to be on Hard Mode+Fixed Mode.
- Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted. If somebody else said what you want to already, quote them explicitly.
+/- ≤1 point extra regarding personality/appearance is encouraged, but no more. If you exercise your bias privileges, please do so explicitly.
- Numerical votes out of 10, or something proportional to it. Make it easy to calculate for my sake.
- Every ranking phase ends whenever I get out of bed, between 0700 and 0800 EST. Do the math for your timezone, Brits.
- I will insist you do not use the "Not X" reason on any character, where X is another unit. If you do, your vote will be thrown out.
- "Recruits X" or "takes you to X chapter" arguments are explicitly banned. C'mon, people, this shouldn't need to be a rule. That's not gameplay performance.
- Assume that the character in question is being recruited.
- Similar to the "Recruits X" rule, do not use "he brings the Demi Band" or any other justification as an argument.
- BEXP is free to be used in any quantity on any character.
- Rating a unit too low because you think its overrated will make me throw away your vote without mercy public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif.
- I withhold the privilege to tell you your rating is bogus and demand you revise it if it breaks any of the above. I will not throw out votes anonymously, you will be informed and given a chance to revise.

Averages:
Rolf: 1.15
Sothe: 2.03
Brom: 2.32
Shinon: 3.00
Volke : 4.82
Ilyana: 4.98
Soren: 5.15
Rhys: 5.31
Gatrie: 5.46
Mia: 5.71
Mist: 6.41
Mordecai: 6.55
Makalov: 6.59
Tormod: 6.62
Zihark: 6.65
Lethe: 6.75
Nephenee: 6.79
Stefan: 7.40
Astrid: 7.76
Boyd: 8.29
Ike: 8.57
Oscar: 9.08
Kieran: 9.23
Jill: 9.31
Marcia: 9.36
Titania: 9.91

Even after the huge discussion in Tormod's thread, only 17 votes were tallied. Hopefully I didn't make any mistakes. Posted Image

Edited by ZM456, 30 April 2012 - 07:34 PM.


#2 bottlegnomes

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:22 PM

Tormod beat Makalov. You've got to be shitting me. Anyway, Lethe if she had better bases and growths and came later. 6/10

#3 Samias

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:23 PM

Pros:
+Good strength and speed, making him a good candidate for the demi band he comes with.
+Supports with Zihark, pretty much the best support option too for both units.
+Great for shoving mounts when transformed.

Cons:
-Laguz unit. He hits hard to start but either takes a hit to his offence to stay transformed all the time, or else he's dead weight when not transformed.
-No innate skill.
-Defence bases are fine when transformed, but doesn't have the bulk to take hits untransformed. Not as tanky as Mordecai is in his starting chapters, but his growths at least keep him stable and he probably won't be doubled. He's okay.
-Not the worst transform gauge, but still takes time to fill.

He's a laguz, with all the good and bad it entails. If you're using Zihark, Muarim is his best pairing and vice versa. Total monster when transformed, but his transform gauge starts pretty low. If you give him the demi band, his offence is merely okay. I felt he missed a lot of OHKOs or ORKOs with the demi band that he would have gotten without it. You still get some amazing move out him when he's transformed, though, and he can shove mounts which is always nice.

I'll give him a 6/10. He starts off fine but since laguz weapons don't have ranks in this game, he can't really keep up with silver weapons. If you're using him for utility, you'd be better off with Mordecai.

Edited by Samias, 30 April 2012 - 07:33 PM.


#4 Lord Raven

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:36 PM

Tormod beat Makalov. You've got to be shitting me. Anyway, Lethe if she had better bases and growths and came later. 6/10

zihark beat makalov

you sound surprised

5.5/10 he's a great unit, good shove user, has better offense than mordecai etc

#5 Snowy_One

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:47 PM

I don't like Muarim. There. I said it. Now I will be realistic.

Muarim simply isn't that great of a unit. He suffers the same problem all Laguz do, namely poor weapons. His claws only have 10 MT and if he goes in demi'ed that means he's pushing 37 MT MAX with no crit-bonuses or special effects of any sort. Now, I might be willing to forgive that if he had more availability, but he doesn't even join until chapter 16. Lethe and Mordi were around since 9/10 (depending on how you look at it) and, while not the best either, get a big boost in terms of availability. The one thing Muarim has on them is that his Zihark support is really good (Lethe's supports are meh at best and Mordi's are less stellar on the individual level for sure). On the plus side though, he is pretty powerful when he joins and doesn't start to fall behind for a while (I know people are going to harp, so I will add 'if ever at all') and he's not actually 'bad' even when outclassed. Just... below average. He's got some nice movement too... But even then I just can't overlook the join time, especially when I have two other Laguz in Lethe (who can shift off the bat and has a strong early-game) and Mordi (who may be slow, but ends up stronger).

5.5/10 on the whole, no personal bias. He's not bad... Just... A late joiner who doesn't really amaze and can start falling behind in the later-game.

#6 Lord Raven

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:34 PM

nice to see we're on the same wavelength snowy

#7 Loki Laufeyson

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:51 PM

Tormod beat Makalov. You've got to be shitting me.

Rhys beat Soren! Now you know my pain. Srsly...

Muarim. Raised Tormod and is all...Battle Cat.

Pros:
Demi band.
Good offense.
Decent bases.
Ok supports.
Not a bad base level

Cons:
Demi band is cool but gimps his stats.
Not as strong as Mordy.


Muarim is kinda cool to have around if you werent really training Mordy and Lethe. Hes not bad even if you did. But hes not like super awesome. Demi band helps him get to the murder right of the bat but he takes speed and defense (i think) penalties and thats a bit pants. It doesnt seem noticeable when he first joins, but a couple of chapters later, he feels those penalties. Still, he joins at like level 8 which is cool and hes got good speed. So Demi'd Muarim is both a pro and a con.

Overall, hes not a bad addition to the team but hes not helping really hold it.
5/10 6/10 bias because hes like, fucken Battle Cat from He-Man.

#8 Cosmic_Harold

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:11 PM

He's okay. Helpfully, he has decent bases; his SPD in particular is nice in comparison to fellow tiger Mordecai. He comes with a Demi Band, so obviously there is an immediate dilemma with him; keep it on him and have him be mostly average at all times, or have him face the usual laguz problem instead; be pretty great for a few turns and then total dead weight for a few more.

He's not bad, but the thing is, if you wanted to use a laguz and stand up to their ups and downs, odds are you've already been training Lethe or Mordecai. While his Demi Band means he doesn't have to face the class' sometimes-damaging ebb and flow, it also means, as I stated before, he'll be barely clawing his way out of the moniker of "meh"; as a result, there are better units you could be using than him in that case, particularly with the low-MT claws and fangs of laguz. He's certainly usable, but certainly imperfect.

6/10

#9 Renall

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:33 AM

Are you guys smoking crack? Muarim's untransformed base stats are equal to a 20/1 Kieran. He's awesome with the Demi Band, he's awesome without it, and while he's not as good a tank as Mordecai he's still pretty hoss in that department. Not as good a support list as Mordy though, but he's a lot faster. Did I mention he can also shove decently and has good movement? Because he does, albeit his shove is no Smite.

Really, lack of range is his only appreciable weakness. "But gauge!" Use the Demi Band, or don't on the maps where his natural transform rate puts him in gear right around the time the action starts anyway. Yeah, there's better units, but 5.5 for a unit that takes no effort to make strong? What? You assholes give BEXP-sucking units 9s and 10s but you'd bag on Muarim and his 70% STR growth for taking nothing?

8/10, I'm actually rating him a 7 but throwing in a bias point because I feel for the dude, and also because he is green. Why are tigers blue and green? Is Lethe being normal cat-colored just a coincidence?

#10 Snowy_One

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:29 AM

Are you guys smoking crack? Muarim's untransformed base stats are equal to a 20/1 Kieran. He's awesome with the Demi Band, he's awesome without it, and while he's not as good a tank as Mordecai he's still pretty hoss in that department. Not as good a support list as Mordy though, but he's a lot faster. Did I mention he can also shove decently and has good movement? Because he does, albeit his shove is no Smite.

Really, lack of range is his only appreciable weakness. "But gauge!" Use the Demi Band, or don't on the maps where his natural transform rate puts him in gear right around the time the action starts anyway. Yeah, there's better units, but 5.5 for a unit that takes no effort to make strong? What? You assholes give BEXP-sucking units 9s and 10s but you'd bag on Muarim and his 70% STR growth for taking nothing?

8/10, I'm actually rating him a 7 but throwing in a bias point because I feel for the dude, and also because he is green. Why are tigers blue and green? Is Lethe being normal cat-colored just a coincidence?


It's not just about base stats though. Muarim and all other Laguz have one key flaw that really holds them back. Their weapon never upgrades. Muarim is basically stuck wielding a D-class weapon throughout the entire time he is present, which is only half the game.

And no, I'm pretty sure the reason why Muarim and Mordi are strange colors is to allow for easier distinctions when looking at their units from above.

Edit: A base-level Muarim without a demi has 32 MT. A 20/1 Kieran without supports but a forged steel weapon has 33 MT. The forge may be able to be acquired once a chapter, but it should last at least two even with exclusive use and Muarim would have to work around his gauge.

Edited by Snowy_One, 01 May 2012 - 09:37 AM.


#11 Colonel M

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 10:07 AM

Demi-Band Maurim has 28 Atk too. While not exactly "pitiful" thanks to his Str lead, it can deteriorate once Silver forges come into play.

Not that it justifies his 5.5/10 and Tormod's 7.5/10. It should really be reversed IMO, but I digress.

#12 Renall

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 10:16 AM

He gets outpaced late by the best units in the game, nobody's disputing that (that's why guys like Titania, Kieran, Marcia, and Jill score 9s and 10s), but it didn't cost you anything to use him. Outside Titania and other Laguz like Lethe/Mordecai, not a whole lot of units can say they're competitive for the midgame and into the later parts without needing to be given any resources whatsoever. Yes, Marcia and Jill pay off their investment, which justifies their high scores. But not even needing that seems like it ought to count for more than a 5.5.

#13 Levant Caprice

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 10:19 AM

6.5/10. Pretty awesome, but suffers from the same flaw that all laguz do - their weapon doesn't upgrade, which causes them to fall behind when silver weapons show up.

#14 bottlegnomes

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 10:44 AM

zihark beat makalov

you sound surprised


That's a travesty, too, but at least Zihark has availability and not needing a bexp dump to contribute on Mak, even if with those Mak is significantly better.

It's also because of ratings like yours that he did. You never did actually explain it, so why exactly does giving Tormod a massive bexp dump to make him a competent unit make him so much better than giving Mak a less big dump to make him a great unit?

Rhys beat Soren! Now you know my pain. Srsly...


That doesn't actually surprise me all that much :unsure: But yeah, it is a shame.

Edited by bottlegnomes, 01 May 2012 - 10:46 AM.


#15 Black Frost

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 03:17 PM

A lot of people on this board have terrible opinions so should you really be surprised?

#16 Lord Raven

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 06:20 PM

Demi-Band Maurim has 28 Atk too. While not exactly "pitiful" thanks to his Str lead, it can deteriorate once Silver forges come into play.

Not that it justifies his 5.5/10 and Tormod's 7.5/10. It should really be reversed IMO, but I digress.

i repeat what i said in IRC, colonel M:

i'm rating these guys based on how likely I am to use them in efficiency. more likely to use = higher rating, as a general trend. i am much more likely to use tormod because of how useful his move is over someone like muarim who's ultimate niche is good offense for a couple chapters and being a damn good shove user


It's also because of ratings like yours that he did. You never did actually explain it, so why exactly does giving Tormod a massive bexp dump to make him a competent unit make him so much better than giving Mak a less big dump to make him a great unit?

i'm sure i was thorough with my paragraph, and i even made an efficiency run where tormod saved me a ton of random turns and made some other strategies a hell of a lot more reliable. i have sources and personal experience based on my own efficiency runthrough, where Tormod had his average stats + spirit dust and a mage band, and he was damn well worth the BEXP dump (not that I "dumped" shit on him, it was gradual). on top of how my ratings for characters in this thread are different than how my arguments for tier lists work; no way in hell would i ever argue tormod over makalov, but i would definitely rate tormod higher because of the reasons i've mentioned

why are you people so mad

#17 Z.M.

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 06:50 PM

Voting is over. Tallying!



#18 bottlegnomes

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:00 PM

A lot of people on this board have terrible opinions so should you really be surprised?


True :dry:

i repeat what i said in IRC, colonel M:

i'm rating these guys based on how likely I am to use them in efficiency. more likely to use = higher rating, as a general trend. i am much more likely to use tormod because of how useful his move is over someone like muarim who's ultimate niche is good offense for a couple chapters and being a damn good shove user


So good move, decent combat, and some utility a bunch of resources is better than good move and combat with next to no resources?

i'm sure i was thorough with my paragraph, and i even made an efficiency run where tormod saved me a ton of random turns and made some other strategies a hell of a lot more reliable. i have sources and personal experience based on my own efficiency runthrough, where Tormod had his average stats + spirit dust and a mage band, and he was damn well worth the BEXP dump (not that I "dumped" shit on him, it was gradual). on top of how my ratings for characters in this thread are different than how my arguments for tier lists work; no way in hell would i ever argue tormod over makalov, but i would definitely rate tormod higher because of the reasons i've mentioned

why are you people so mad


:You may be sure, but I don't think anyone else is. I've had runs where having yet another paladin saved me turns. @bold: so giving him a bunch of resources other people would like makes him better than someone who takes one not even limited resouce (KW)?

I at least am not so much mad as that I find your double standard ridiculous.

On a completely random note, ZM, would you mind me ganking the scores for this once the whole cycle is done to add to my FE9 guide? I have a whole series I did a while ago on GFAQs, but the more scores the better.

#19 Z.M.

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:03 PM

On a completely random note, ZM, would you mind me ganking the scores for this once the whole cycle is done to add to my FE9 guide? I have a whole series I did a while ago on GFAQs, but the more scores the better.


Sure thing. Just remind me, alright?

#20 Lord Raven

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:12 PM

So good move, decent combat, and some utility a bunch of resources is better than good move and combat with next to no resources?

yes, because everyone and their fucking mother in this game has good combat with no/little resources and they exist for longer than muarim

there is nobody who is an 8-move magic user that exists before or after tormod, or anywhere in tormod's existence. absolutely nobody. there are 3 other competitors for siege tomes that have a lot less move and less viable support options. and the best of all, BEXP is abundant enough in this game that you can raise a team of 12 easily enough



You may be sure, but I don't think anyone else is. I've had runs where having yet another paladin saved me turns. @bold: so giving him a bunch of resources other people would like makes him better than someone who takes one not even limited resouce (KW)?

many runs would love a siege tome user to hit a boss because your units just don't have the stats to kill them, especially a solo-flier. with the existence of a solo-flier, i'm less likely to want to use more paladins because they wont' catch up and they don't have 3-10 range

just because other people like it doesnt mean it isn't in abundance.

I at least am not so much mad as that I find your double standard ridiculous.

what double standard? i stated what i rate based on, and yes i even check my previous ratings because i compare units to one another. tormod's 8.0/10 is fairly consistent with my criteria




stop now before you fall into the trap of thinking i'm arguing tormod > muarim

Edited by Lord Raven, 01 May 2012 - 07:13 PM.