157 replies to this topic

[Tricky Dick]

The idea that honour killings are things that don't happen in North America is a very wrong notion.

But that's not the point.

If honour killings happened in any democratic country (Canada/Israel/GB...), there would be a trial and public uproar. But when it happens in the Middle East (excluding Israel), it's considered culturally acceptable and the rest of the world views it as "a pity".

EDIT: I actually do remember the Shafia case and the uproar it caused. Because it happened in Montreal, people were shocked and wanted the family to hang. That doesn't happen everywhere.

Edited by Life Admiral, 19 June 2012 - 10:56 PM.

[BBM]

I recognize that the fact that honour killings are acceptable in other countries is a much larger issue than the fact that they occur, but are illegal, here. But it's still an issue, even if it is relatively smaller. I just didn't want people to brush over the killings that happen here just because the offenders are punished.

[SeverIan]

But when it happens in the Middle East (excluding Israel), it's considered culturally acceptable and the rest of the world views it as "a pity".

Is it really viewed as culturally acceptable, or just not our business to rectify (AKA, don't be planet Earth police)? Is it really practical to do more than to deplore it, when you're a citizen of another country? I'm a little skeptical there's much that can be done. The article I referred to earlier seemed to indicate there were some NGOs in the KRI region that offer support for potential victims of retaliation for "honor crimes." Relocation (within or out of country) as well.

It does seem (from a few cursory looks at webpages that look reputable) that GB and Canada - didn't see stuff on the US - may have some serious failures in terms of granting asylum to women who have reason to fear honor killing at home. I'm pretty sure that in the US, asylum is usually only obtainable when you're the victim of government persecution, but if its a form of crime the government is unwilling or incapable of moving against, asylum can be granted.

[Tricky Dick]

Is it really viewed as culturally acceptable, or just not our business to rectify (AKA, don't be planet Earth police)? Is it really practical to do more than to deplore it, when you're a citizen of another country?

I'm about to go on a rant. Not trying to hijack the thread but I need to vent.

First off all, most of these cases happen in the Middle East. My territory, not yours. This is culturally normal here (not Israel but ME in general) and the world does nothing but "condone" it. Fine. It would be nice if the world stayed out of our business but what can you do?

My real issue is not with the fact that atrocities happen but rather that the world then turns around and blames Israel for infringing on human rights. We are a country with legitimately more freedoms than the world's self-proclaimed "free nation" (I'm looking at you, USA, and your illegalization of gay marriage). We are surrounded by countries which deny women basic human rights, all in the name of Mohammed the Prophet.

Take the blockade of Gaza that's been up for years now as an example. How many resolutions have been passed by the UN against Israel's inhumane actions simply regarding the blockade? Countless. But does the rest of the world realize that the PA treats their own citizens worse than we do? We provide food, we take out the terrorist organization which hides in their homes and uses their children as human shields... We do that stuff. Not their own government. Many Palestinians don't really care two figs about Israel because they actually want to live in peace. Unfortunately, it's their government that screws it up.

What I'm trying to get at is that if nothing is going to be done about honour killings (which nothing should be done because this stuff will continue), then stop lambasting Israel as being the nation that denies freedoms.


Sorry about that, needed to rant.

I recognize that the fact that honour killings are acceptable in other countries is a much larger issue than the fact that they occur, but are illegal, here. But it's still an issue, even if it is relatively smaller. I just didn't want people to brush over the killings that happen here just because the offenders are punished.

Murder is a crime. Murder is an issue. And yet, there are murders every day in every city of the world. Just because something is deemed unacceptable doesn't mean that it won't continue.

I really don't understand your point. Education of issues is a wonderful thing but it means nothing without an agenda.

Edited by Life Admiral, 20 June 2012 - 12:57 AM.

[Aquaman]

What is with people complaining about the culture and way other cultures do things.

Well, from what I know, women in cultures that do that, well, let me say a bit of what I know.

This may or may not be true.

-Parents prefer Male Children, and as such, female children are generally tried to be married off in arranged marriages.
-WOmen do all the domestic work, in some of those cultures.

I can see why people of the Western World would be shocked, but place yourself in the shoes of one belonging/understanding cultures that practice this.

[CrashGordon94]

...I'm sorry, I fail to see how that excuses murdering people for being raped!

[1st Mate Bob]

---

My real issue is not with the fact that atrocities happen but rather that the world then turns around and blames Israel for infringing on human rights. We are a country with legitimately more freedoms than the world's self-proclaimed "free nation" (I'm looking at you, USA, and your illegalization of gay marriage). We are surrounded by countries which deny women basic human rights, all in the name of Mohammed the Prophet.

---

What I'm trying to get at is that if nothing is going to be done about honour killings (which nothing should be done because this stuff will continue), then stop lambasting Israel as being the nation that denies freedoms.

Hey man, we're doing what I can to get DOMA overturned. And you know what? It's working. I'm not sure how your culture or government works, but over here if we fight against something that we feel isn't right, we usually come out on top.

And just because your country may have "more freedoms" doesn't mean that the bad things that happen there are justified.

[Aquaman]

...I'm sorry, I fail to see how that excuses murdering people for being raped!

That is the way they do things there.

Honor is a very important thing in the ME, and in Asia.



Often in some rural Asain (Non-ME) places, the only way to regain honor is through killing the one that sullied ones honor, or to commit suicide.

Look, I think it's a bit atrocious, but should we really go and mess with entire countries, and get them to conform to our beliefs?

[eclipse]

That is the way they do things there.

Honor is a very important thing in the ME, and in Asia.



Often in some rural Asain (Non-ME) places, the only way to regain honor is through killing the one that sullied ones honor, or to commit suicide.

Look, I think it's a bit atrocious, but should we really go and mess with entire countries, and get them to conform to our beliefs?

When it comes to human rights violations, cultural sensitivity can kiss my ass. What honor is regained in killing a rape victim?

[CrashGordon94]

When it comes to human rights violations, cultural sensitivity can kiss my ass. What honor is regained in killing a rape victim?

Sorry to not add much, but THIS!

And I think pretty everyone is saying this very thing here.

[Furetchen]

That is the way they do things there.

Honor is a very important thing in the ME, and in Asia.



Often in some rural Asain (Non-ME) places, the only way to regain honor is through killing the one that sullied ones honor, or to commit suicide.

I wouldn't honestly care if there was a killing spree of vengeful fathers killing the men that raped their daughters. The issue is that they're killing the VICTIMS here. POLITICAL CORRECTNESS CEASES TO BE A FACTOR WHEN RAPE VICTIMS ARE BEING EXECUTED BY THEIR OWN FAMILIES, WHO SUBSEQUENTLY GET AWAY WITH IT.

[Baldrick]

When it comes to human rights violations, cultural sensitivity can kiss my ass. What honor is regained in killing a rape victim?

Well, obviously it's a horrible situation, but I only see three ways Western society can prevent it;

1) Try to convince them their values are outdated, through discussion, debate etc.
2) Invade them, make their country a vassal of the US or whoever, and pass laws forbidding "honour killings".
3) Relocate all the women to Western countries.

Unless you can either organise number 1 and make it effective, phrase number 2 in such a way that it's not a horrible plan, finance number 3 and placate the people who may not like being kidnapped and forced form their families, or come up with a feasible fourth solution, I'm afraid you're going to have to live and let live. I don't like it either, but what can you do?


EDIT: This applies to Furetchen as well. We've got a society full of repressed women to save! What's the plan, boss?

Edited by Baldrick, 20 June 2012 - 04:43 AM.

[CrashGordon94]

There's the thing, it didn't sound like Sharpy was saying "It sucks but there's little we can do", it came across as "It's okay because that's their culture!" or somesuch.

[Baldrick]

There's the thing, it didn't sound like Sharpy was saying "It sucks but there's little we can do", it came across as "It's okay because that's their culture!" or somesuch.

That's fair, his first post does give the latter impression.

But I think Sharpoon believes the former, because his second post says;

Look, I think it's a bit atrocious, but should we really go and mess with entire countries, and get them to conform to our beliefs?

[eclipse]

Well, obviously it's a horrible situation, but I only see three ways Western society can prevent it;

1) Try to convince them their values are outdated, through discussion, debate etc.
2) Invade them, make their country a vassal of the US or whoever, and pass laws forbidding "honour killings".
3) Relocate all the women to Western countries.

Unless you can either organise number 1 and make it effective, phrase number 2 in such a way that it's not a horrible plan, finance number 3 and placate the people who may not like being kidnapped and forced form their families, or come up with a feasible fourth solution, I'm afraid you're going to have to live and let live. I don't like it either, but what can you do?


EDIT: This applies to Furetchen as well. We've got a society full of repressed women to save! What's the plan, boss?

I guess they'd need to form some overarching group that doesn't approve of things, and can apply meaningful sanctions if a country is actively harming its citizens. . .hmm, wonder if such a thing exists. . .

[Baldrick]

I guess they'd need to form some overarching group that doesn't approve of things, and can apply meaningful sanctions if a country is actively harming its citizens. . .hmm, wonder if such a thing exists. . .

I'm not sure either. If I had to guess, though, I'd say there is, since all forms of discrimination and hate crime have been completely eliminated except for killing of victims of rape.

[Aquaman]

Thing is.

You're trying to change an entire culture and way of doing things.

It'd be nice to try, in an ideal world, but this isn't an ideal world.

I may not be correct, but I read that for thousands of years, this was the norm-
Men went out and gathered/hunted food.
Women took care of the children, and did domestic work.

It does suck, from the view of western culture, but there's little that those of western culture can do.

I mean, we're trying to forcebly change an entire culture, and entire system of beliefs, for western ideals.

Utopia isn't going to work, due to human nature.

[Tricky Dick]

Hey man, we're doing what I can to get DOMA overturned. And you know what? It's working. I'm not sure how your culture or government works, but over here if we fight against something that we feel isn't right, we usually come out on top.

And just because your country may have "more freedoms" doesn't mean that the bad things that happen there are justified.

I didn't know anyone could miss the point that badly.

In the past three days (18/06/2012 -> 20/06/2012), over 50 rockets have been fired at Israel from Gaza, an area that is "victimized" in the media. Gaza is one of those areas that infringes on human rights in the name of religion. But Israel is the country that is condemned for wanting to keep its civilians safe.

The point that I was trying to make was that the rest of the world does not understand the Middle East and WILL not understand the Middle East and should stop attempting to. But all you saw was "human rights" and "gay marriage" and went off on a tangent. Next time, read the argument properly before replying.

EDIT: The bold is to everyone else. I am in complete agreement with Baldrick and I think my opinion holds weight because I actually live in the Middle East and you do not. Just let it be. This shit will continue, no matter how much you disapprove of it.

"OH MY GOD, THEY'RE KILLING THE VICTIM! WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING!"

Well smart guy, let me hear your plan. Let me hear what YOU individually are going to do. Bear in mind that you're attempting to fight against a religious view and will lose about 99% of the time.

Edited by Life Admiral, 20 June 2012 - 09:12 AM.

[Raven]

It may be their culture to commit such atrocities on their own turf, but when they bring their culture over to the United Kingdom (or anywhere else in the world where an honour crime is not acceptable) and still think they are in the right after killing someone, that is a problem. To think they are above the law is outrageous. And the UK still knows little to nothing regarding potential victims of honour crime. Incompetence in our police forces on the rather alien matter at hand means that less cases go detected than usual. My friend conducted his final year research into honour killings and the police of England and Wales, I'll have to ask him for a copy of his work so I can read it up.

Saying "ban honour killings" is pointless since it is basically "murder", and laws already exist against that, I'm sure.
The problem is, they believe that it is justified. We can probably try to 'educate' these people as much as we like, but they will not stray far, if at all, from their beliefs and traditions. It is really a lost cause. All we can hope for to stop this kind of killing is that the morals and ethics of democratic countries eventually rub off on them, and for the people who follow their age-old traditions without question die out, and that their governments and law enforcers get the balls to treat murderers exactly the same, regardless of whether it was for 'honour' or not. Oh, and no to mention treating women the same as men. That's a pretty big one right there. But sadly I don't think that will happen any time soon.

Edited by Raven, 20 June 2012 - 09:17 AM.

[Tricky Dick]

It depends on the law system there. If the law will prosecute, I hope they do. If not, shame. But nothing can be done in those cases.

Don't confuse my point. I have not once condoned honour killings. I am more than 100% against them. But there is nothing that can be done in countries where it is acceptable.