157 replies to this topic

[1st Mate Bob]

I didn't know anyone could miss the point that badly.

In the past three days (18/06/2012 -> 20/06/2012), over 50 rockets have been fired at Israel from Gaza, an area that is "victimized" in the media. Gaza is one of those areas that infringes on human rights in the name of religion. But Israel is the country that is condemned for wanting to keep its civilians safe.

The point that I was trying to make was that the rest of the world does not understand the Middle East and WILL not understand the Middle East and should stop attempting to. But all you saw was "human rights" and "gay marriage" and went off on a tangent. Next time, read the argument properly before replying.

EDIT: The bold is to everyone else. I am in complete agreement with Baldrick and I think my opinion holds weight because I actually live in the Middle East and you do not. Just let it be. This shit will continue, no matter how much you disapprove of it.

"OH MY GOD, THEY'RE KILLING THE VICTIM! WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING!"

Well smart guy, let me hear your plan. Let me hear what YOU individually are going to do. Bear in mind that you're attempting to fight against a religious view and will lose about 99% of the time.

Your point was that you're tired of people from other countries shitting blame and calling your country inhumane when there are other countries doing the same or even worse things, and you would like for everyone to fuck off and leave you alone because it's rooted in your culture which you feel outsiders are incapable of understanding, right? Yeah, I got it. I was still on the topic of honor killings in general. Sorry I wasn't on the same page as you.

I can see how the last part of my post could have been taken as an attack toward you, which wasn't the intent. That statement applies to everyone, including my own country.

The stuff happening with Gaza? Yeah, it sucks. It sucks that the media is condemning Israel. It sucks that your country is a punching bag for blame. I'm just saying that if there are shitty things happening in your country, and the people living there don't like it, why don't they do anything about it? I ask because I don't know what you can do, and I don't know what I can do. I don't even know if the people WANT to change it, I was just trying to make a statement about a "what if" scenario.

Do I think what's happening is wrong? Yes. Do I think it should be changed? Yes. Do I know how to change it? No, and there's nothing I can do. I don't have a plan. I'm not proposing a plan. If the people living there really think they're "atrocities" like you said, then they're the ones who have to do something about it.

I feel all forms of murder or wrong. I don't care where or why it's done. It's not in my power to change things, but that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on it.


Did I miss anything?

[Nightmare]

I don't want to insult Nightmare (a very good friend of mine) but I need to get this off of my chest.

[etc.]

I'm not really offended. This is one of the sad truths I'm conscious of. It's yet another example of worn-out and barbaric traditions surviving from the age of ignorance. It is a thing of great sorrow, indeed.

[eclipse]

I'm not sure either. If I had to guess, though, I'd say there is, since all forms of discrimination and hate crime have been completely eliminated except for killing of victims of rape.

I guess we're both being sarcastic.

Thing is.

You're trying to change an entire culture and way of doing things.

It'd be nice to try, in an ideal world, but this isn't an ideal world.

I may not be correct, but I read that for thousands of years, this was the norm-
Men went out and gathered/hunted food.
Women took care of the children, and did domestic work.

It does suck, from the view of western culture, but there's little that those of western culture can do.

I mean, we're trying to forcebly change an entire culture, and entire system of beliefs, for western ideals.

Utopia isn't going to work, due to human nature.

Things don't look like they'll change at this very moment. Go 100 years back in American history, and women couldn't vote. Go 150 years back, and slavery existed. The first step is awareness. I don't know what other things it'll take for honor killings to be seen as a blemish in human history, but I'll be damned if I just sit back and go "oh well, that's too deeply ingrained in their culture for me to say anything about it." I'm obviously not changing cultures with my personal views, but I'm not gonna accept it just because I can't do anything about it.

[Aquaman]

I guess we're both being sarcastic.



Things don't look like they'll change at this very moment. Go 100 years back in American history, and women couldn't vote. Go 150 years back, and slavery existed. The first step is awareness. I don't know what other things it'll take for honor killings to be seen as a blemish in human history, but I'll be damned if I just sit back and go "oh well, that's too deeply ingrained in their culture for me to say anything about it." I'm obviously not changing cultures with my personal views, but I'm not gonna accept it just because I can't do anything about it.

I thought you were talking on a big scale.

And, yeah, the ME for the most part has people living like, err, anachronistic compared to the rest of the world.
(Sorry Nightmare, no offense man.)

And, IDK if that was the right choice of words.

Personal views are nice and all, but it may take a long time for ME culture to completely change.

[Baldrick]

Life Admiral put my point more eloquently than I could, except for one thing. I don't think it's impossible for us to get along. Given the state of the world, it will possibly never happen; but if we could mingle on an individual level, we could come to understand, if not sympathise with each other. Much of the problem comes from our tendency to dehumanise people we don't know. We don't think of them as fellow humans with their own hopes, dreams and ideals, just as caricatures.

But we can't go in with the agenda of changing the other man's viewpoint by force; that would only push them away. It might mean that their ways will not change, but it's our most realistic chance of preventing honour killings without infringing on the human rights of the perpretrators.

[Espinosa]

What can I say, in the East they value other things more than human rights... even such an elementary one as the right to exist. And since existence is so unbearable most of the time, it kinda makes sense to me.

[Aquaman]

Here in the Phillipines, making another lose his/her Honor, is dangerous in the Rural Areas.

So, it's still exists all over the place in the East.

And, yes, changing views through force is not the answer, your best hope to sort of merge cultures together, and hope to treat those sort of actions as barbaric.

[Tricky Dick]

I'm not really offended. This is one of the sad truths I'm conscious of. It's yet another example of worn-out and barbaric traditions surviving from the age of ignorance. It is a thing of great sorrow, indeed.

Perfect. Now move to Israel.

Seriously though, everything that can be said on the matter has been said.

[Westbrick]

I know I'm jumping into the middle of things here, but what I personally find important in this issue is that it's a referendum on "cultural relativism." It's all fine and dandy to say that people have a right to their own idiosyncratic beliefs and moral practices... but then girls start getting killed for being rape victims, and suddenly those idealistic ambitions seem rather misguided. A line needs to be drawn somewhere, and I have no problem with openly condemning cultures that treat women this way.

Well, obviously it's a horrible situation, but I only see three ways Western society can prevent it;

1) Try to convince them their values are outdated, through discussion, debate etc.
2) Invade them, make their country a vassal of the US or whoever, and pass laws forbidding "honour killings".
3) Relocate all the women to Western countries.

Unless you can either organise number 1 and make it effective, phrase number 2 in such a way that it's not a horrible plan, finance number 3 and placate the people who may not like being kidnapped and forced form their families, or come up with a feasible fourth solution, I'm afraid you're going to have to live and let live. I don't like it either, but what can you do?


EDIT: This applies to Furetchen as well. We've got a society full of repressed women to save! What's the plan, boss?

There are other venues to consider as well.

4) Openly condemn such practices and make clear that Western secularism stands on the opposite end of the spectrum.
5) Put diplomatic pressures on countries where such practices are tolerated; economic sanctions, trade restrictions, withdrawal of foreign aid, etc.
6) When such killings occur on Western soil, make sure to come down swiftly and mercilessly; spread cultural awareness about the issue, provide safehavens for victims of rape in Muslim or otherwise high-risk families, etc.; maybe even spread such awareness into public schooling.

Unfortunately, the problem can't be solved overnight, but major strides can be made within Western nations, and small (but important) steps can be taken diplomatically.

What can I say, in the East they value other things more than human rights... even such an elementary one as the right to exist. And since existence is so unbearable most of the time, it kinda makes sense to me.

To be clear: do you mean existence in the Middle East specifically, or existence generally?

Edited by Westbrick, 23 June 2012 - 02:54 PM.

[Tricky Dick]

There are other venues to consider as well.

The real question is how effective they will be.

4) Openly condemn such practices and make clear that Western secularism stands on the opposite end of the spectrum.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

No seriously. This is part of your master plan? The Middle East is in the middle of the barbarian times again (Israel notwithstanding). Why do you think that countries like Syria (mind you, a country that is currently... "putting down a rebel uprising") and Iran will actually care about what the West thinks? Remember, the general view is the West are infidels.

5) Put diplomatic pressures on countries where such practices are tolerated; economic sanctions, trade restrictions, withdrawal of foreign aid, etc.

Currently happening with regards to Iran and their nuclear program. Which Iran doesn't really give a fuck about because they just want a WMD so that they can bomb Israel (publicly stated by both Ahmadinejad and the Ayatolla). The only thing that slows down the actual progress of the program is the weird car bombings to all of the scientists working on the project. Hmm...

But do you honestly think that sanctions will ever be put on countries in the Middle East for being inhumane? Forget idealism, let's look at reality. It's Israel that is inhumane in the world's eyes, not Iran or Syria or Lebanon.

6) When such killings occur on Western soil, make sure to come down swiftly and mercilessly; spread cultural awareness about the issue, provide safehavens for victims of rape in Muslim or otherwise high-risk families, etc.; maybe even spread such awareness into public schooling.

Already happens in North America (can't say the same about Europe because I don't know for a fact) with the Shafia case being the public example. But it doesn't solve anything.

Cultural awareness in North America is essentially "post on FB for a day about something, pay $5 for a bracelet or shirt or something so that the money goes to an organization (that does what exactly?) and then forget about it until someone else brings it up". Shows how shallow society has really because but those were the cards that we were dealt.

Unfortunately, the problem can't be solved overnight, but major strides can be made within Western nations, and small (but important) steps can be taken diplomatically.

Uh... no. None of your solutions are good. Your intentions are sweet and wonderful but the practicality is shit. The Middle East is ruled by a corrupt spawn of a religion and doesn't give a shit about what the Western world thinks.

Come back down to earth, matey.

Edited by Life Admiral, 23 June 2012 - 06:09 PM.

[Westbrick]

I've got a solution for you, Life Admiral: how about you tone down the condescension a little? I'd love to have a civil discussion here, but my biggest pet peeve in life is unwarranted arrogance. Politics is a passion of mine, and I plan to go into law having taken several classes on foreign affairs and diplomacy; while I'm hardly an expert by any stretch, I'm well-read and reasonable, and willing to change my mind if compelling evidence is put before me. What you need to do is back off a bit, apologize, and then we can continue.

[dondon151]

how about you tone down the condescension a little?

Politics is a passion of mine,

i'm sorry, this doesn't compute. politics thrives off condescension.

[Westbrick]

i'm sorry, this doesn't compute. politics thrives off condescension.

Bad politics, at any rate. The stuff you find on soundbite-driven political radio and partisan television. Good politicking is always a little arrogant, but backed up by facts and well-reasoned arguments, not immature HAHAHAHAHAs and YOU'VE NEVER BEEN THERE MANs. I'm thinking the Economist and the like.

[Aquaman]

I'm getting really tired of the Wests way of.

"We don't like this aspect of your culture, so we're going to change it" view.

Look folks, honor is a very important aspect in the Easter Part of the World.

What are you going to do about it?

You want to do what YOU think is right, and change THEIR culture.
THEY think it's the right thing to do, and view us as "infidels"

Who are WE to judge another culture.

Geez.

Get a grip folks, I got sick of old ladies trying to get me to donate all my savings to these groups that may or may not have assisted in the development of the 2nd-3rd world countries, but this is just pure idiocy.

Look, from the view of many cultures, Murder is wrong, but to those of the ME culture, it's not murder.

****ing internationalists

Culture is what defines people.
It's their system of beliefs, religon, etc.

You're going to try and convince, like 30 million people living in a sort of Anachronistic Culture based on being a Warrior- to go sing Kum-Bay-Yah and have tea parties and attend Book Clubs?

Sigh, I don't mean any offense to the folks of the ME, but I agree with everything Life has to say.

The West needs to have more Cultural Awareness and to stop trying to force their ideals around other cultures.

[CrashGordon94]

Culture is not the issue here, these are atrocities and human rights violations, not to mention it's completed ass-ended to anyone with reasoanble morals.

Basically no amount of "culture" can excuse KILLING RAPE VICTIMS FOR HAVING THE SHEER AUDACITY TO BE RAPED! Everyone's already said this, I can honestly not understand why it continues to fly over you head.

[eclipse]

Please tell me in what way, shape, and form "well cultural relativism, so let's kill women who have been raped" is sensible. There's a difference between respecting culture and respecting human rights; once your culture violates basic human rights, you no longer have cultural relativism to hide behind.

[Sangyul]

Harpoon, just about two months ago, you were PART of the "West."

Also, up until approximately 150 years ago, slavery was part of the "U.S. culture". I'm pretty sure we all agree that slavery is morally deplorable, right?

My point is, culture is a powerful thing indeed, but everything changes. Culture is not a "static" thing. Not too long ago, it was "culture" to see women and minorities as "second-class citizens." But the culture changed because we were forced to have it change.

Is anything so sacred that it should never, ever change? Everything is going to change. Culture. The "norms." It all changes.

And I get that honor is important in the "Eastern part of the world", but is honor really that important so that it justifies killing someone who did nothing wrong but be victimized? You ask us to see it in "your way", but are you seeing it from "the Western point of view"?

What if it was your sister, or cousin, or (future) daughter? Would you be able to kill her in the name of "honor"? Would you be able to stand back and watch it happen, knowing she did nothing wrong but be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

[Aquaman]

Please tell me in what way, shape, and form "well cultural relativism, so let's kill women who have been raped" is sensible. There's a difference between respecting culture and respecting human rights; once your culture violates basic human rights, you no longer have cultural relativism to hide behind.

Human Rights, in whose view?

Harpoon, just about two months ago, you were PART of the "West."

Also, up until approximately 150 years ago, slavery was part of the "U.S. culture". I'm pretty sure we all agree that slavery is morally deplorable, right?

My point is, culture is a powerful thing indeed, but everything changes. Culture is not a "static" thing. Not too long ago, it was "culture" to see women and minorities as "second-class citizens." But the culture changed because we were forced to have it change.

Is anything so sacred that it should never, ever change? Everything is going to change. Culture. The "norms." It all changes.

And I get that honor is important in the "Eastern part of the world", but is honor really that important so that it justifies killing someone who did nothing wrong but be victimized? You ask us to see it in "your way", but are you seeing it from "the Western point of view"?

What if it was your sister, or cousin, or (future) daughter? Would you be able to kill her in the name of "honor"? Would you be able to stand back and watch it happen, knowing she did nothing wrong but be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Look at this from a detached way, and try to see what's important in those cultures, to the people in them.
Human rights, in the West are quite different from Human Rights in the ME.

And, sheesh, change isn't always for the best.

If I were raised under that sort of culture without any other influence, I would.
But think, if you were raised under that culture, without any other influences other than the values of said culture, what would you do?

Look, I'm trying to not show bias towards either side, but apparently it isn't working.

[eclipse]

Human Rights, in whose view?

Boron, you get the second half.

Obviously, not yours, since you are not female, and liable to be accused of being a rape victim BEFORE being killed off by your own family. I think I'm far more disturbed by your lack of empathy towards women than anything.

[Aquaman]

Boron, you get the second half.

Obviously, not yours, since you are not female, and liable to be accused of being a rape victim BEFORE being killed off by your own family. I think I'm far more disturbed by your lack of empathy towards women than anything.

Human Rights, from the view of a native of the M.E., vs. Human Rights from the view of someone raised under Western values/culture.


I'm only trying to look at the point of discussion with a detached view.

I do show empathy, but I don't know how to say some things very well, without getting an awkward feeling.

Also, I'm not trying to sound evil or anything, it's just that while I DO respect human rights, I don't understand the way you people want to solve this problem.

Want to go on IP chat or to the PM?

Edited by Sharpy, 24 June 2012 - 03:01 AM.