157 replies to this topic

[Raven]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2161220/Indian-man-upset-daughter-sleeping-chops-head-sword-parades-round-village.html

This is a very recent example of what is dubbed "honour killings", but the whole concept has been around for thousands of years.

Human Rights Watch defines "honor killings" as follows:

Honor killings are acts of vengeance, usually death, committed by male family members against female family members, who are held to have brought dishonor upon the family. A woman can be targeted by (individuals within) her family for a variety of reasons, including: refusing to enter into an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce—even from an abusive husband—or (allegedly) committing adultery. The mere perception that a woman has behaved in a way that "dishonors" her family is sufficient to trigger an attack on her life.

Yes, you read that right. A woman can get killed by her own family for being a victim of rape.

We don't hear an awful lot about such things in the news and such, but they sure as hell exist. They happen in our countries, maybe even just in the town next door, a father is killing his daughter because she doesn't want to marry the man he chose for her. Just reading through some of the Wiki article on the subject will tell you that there's much of it going on in the world. http://en.wikipedia....i/Honor_killing

I'd love to stay and place more in this opening post, but it's gone 3am and I've been awake for about 38ish hours off the back of about 6 hours sleep. I'll post my thoughts on the matter later when I have time.

In the mean time, discuss.

[CR-S01]

What.

What.

This kind of thing...I don't even know. Since when is sex worse than murder? And killing the victim for being raped?

Just, what the fuck. :<

[1st Mate Bob]

Not an issue in the United States specifically, but this kind of thing is integrated into so many eastern and middle eastern cultures that it will probably be a long time before we can see it terminated.

That doesn't make it okay, though.

[Peppy]

... This is depressing.

I mean... Why shouldn't they be allowed to do the things mentioned... It's totally fair...
As for the Rape thing, It's pathetic that somebody could get killed for something that isn't their fault whatsoever...

Edited by Folgore Purple, 18 June 2012 - 09:29 PM.

[Rewjeo]

tl;dr for everything: people suck.

[Blademaster!]

In the mean time, discuss.

What's there to discuss? Everyone's just going to go "Oh god, this is terrible blah blah blah" unless someone chooses to play devils advocate and go "serves them right for not keeping their purity blah blah blah" at which point everyone will just ridicule said person for being something along the lines of a horrible monster or just not take them seriously.

Actually, I'd be pretty interested in seeing someone trying to defend why "honor killings" aren't a problem, or at least not a problem under certain situations.

[Rewjeo]

Well, in a culture where being a rape victim is worthy of death, living really might not be so great, either. Depending on what the victim herself thinks, she might actually support the honor killing, too.

Edited by Rewjeo, 18 June 2012 - 09:46 PM.

[Melonhead]

Being part of a western culture, I can't say much besides "Holy Sh** that is horrible etc."

But killing the victum of sexual assault? Really?

[Tricky Dick]

I don't want to insult Nightmare (a very good friend of mine) but I need to get this off of my chest.

In most Middle Eastern countries (even in the West Bank and Gaza), this is the norm. Welcome to a world that is run by a religion that has perverted itself in the name of power. Women have no rights. Yes, you read that right. A girl is killed if she is raped because it is dishonourable for her to live. The victim gets a worse punishment than the perpetrator.

I know a story of a mother that took her daughter to the police (in Israel near Hebron) for protection from the family because the daughter had been raped. Protection from her own family. Can you even imagine that? And the rest of the world thinks of it as... distasteful.

The Middle East with regard to Israel vs. Arab countries is rife with double standards. If this happened in Israel (not just among the Arab population in the West Bank), there would be world outcry and Israel would be infringing on basic human rights (like the UN believes otherwise anyways). But in Iran? Egypt? Jordan? Saudi Arabia? Syria? Well... that's saddening but it just what happens there.

[Raven]

The whole "killed if you're raped" thing is one huge ring of fire.

A woman who is raped will more than likely never disclose such a crime to her family or authorities for the sake of her own life.

This just about allows men to take advantage of this and basically rape women knowing that the woman probably won't tell anyone ever. Since humans are programmed to have sex, an easy bit on the side is too good to pass up and so more and more men rape women, believing their crimes will go undetected. If people think they can get away with something, they will more than likely commit the act.

Just my own deductions here, but I'd imagine rape is rife in countries where these honour killings are common.

What would be the penalty for a man found guilty of rape? I would bet a week's paycheque that they don't face getting killed by their family or the death penalty, and I'm not even a betting man.

[Tricky Dick]

Just my own deductions here, but I'd imagine rape is rife in countries where these honour killings are common.

Quoted for truth.

What would be the penalty for a man found guilty of rape? I would bet a week's paycheque that they don't face getting killed by their family or the death penalty, and I'm not even a betting man.

"Nothing because he is a good Muslim man." - My roommate.

I asked her if that was a joke. It's not.

[Raven]

I find it hard to believe that parents would choose the honour of their family name over the life of their daughter. Just as much to blame are the people who would look down on a family because one of their female members were found to be raped and still alive, and the only method to restore said respect, for what it's worth, is to kill the female. Never mind the offender. It's quite hard to comprehend. It's backwards. Inhumane. Humans make me angry, and the feeling of helplessness is quite heavy.

[Tricky Dick]

I find it hard to believe that parents would choose the honour of their family name over the life of their daughter. Just as much to blame are the people who would look down on a family because one of their female members were found to be raped and still alive, and the only method to restore said respect, for what it's worth, is to kill the female. Never mind the offender. It's quite hard to comprehend. It's backwards. Inhumane. Humans make me angry, and the feeling of helplessness is quite heavy.

They don't go after the offender though. Remember, this is the fucked up version of Islam. Even though women dress up so that you can only see their eyes (AKA so that men don't think of sexual fantasies), they were still tempting the man and therefore, it is their fault.

It's like the guy who claims that the girl was asking to be raped because her skirt was that short... but now the court agrees with him and pardons him.

[Raven]

They don't go after the offender though. Remember, this is the fucked up version of Islam. Even though women dress up so that you can only see their eyes (AKA so that men don't think of sexual fantasies), they were still tempting the man and therefore, it is their fault.

It's like the guy who claims that the girl was asking to be raped because her skirt was that short... but now the court agrees with him and pardons him.

Yeah, that's what I meant. "Never mind" is generally slang for "ignore". My bad, there. Should've been more clear.

[Rehab]

Religious justification seem to be cited often for them, but what the exact origins of those justifications are, seem to be slightly unclear. At least on a preliminary skim of the Wikipedia article. The entry seems to claim that it was almost universally common at different points in history. (see the ancient Romans- being raped was supposedly so bad for a woman's "life and reputation" that being killed for it was considered "merciful," and male relatives could even be punished themselves if they "failed" to carry out punishment themselves. it's claimed even american natives on both continents practiced some forms of it)

I have to wonder to what degree religious and "cultural" differences might simply be convenient excuses, rather than the killings being symptomatic of heavily patriarchal societies.
Even so, I don't quite get the "kill your daughter because she was raped" thing. I'd think even the most biased of interpretations would find it hard to call it a fault of hers, though I'm probably underestimating how much pressure there is to conform to expectations.

It's probably worth noting the killings seem to target LGBT individuals for related, if not completely the same reasons.

Reminds me of a recent(?) book that I heard detailed all a bunch of stupid things people have done over "honor" through history.

Edited by Rehab, 19 June 2012 - 08:10 PM.

[SeverIan]

Actually I feel like I hear about this sort of thing discussed rather frequently.

What would be the penalty for a man found guilty of rape? I would bet a week's paycheque that they don't face getting killed by their family or the death penalty, and I'm not even a betting man.

I'm pretty sure that I've heard of cases of men who are relatives of a woman (not necessarily one who has not been raped) killing the man involved as well as the woman. The case that actually comes to mind was I believe of a man who, unlike what life was saying, was not a "good muslim man" so religious prejudice played a role, IIRC. The below link, on honor killings in the Kurdistan region of Iraq, suggests that while initial killings are usually of the female by her own family, since she is in their custody, the male offender against the family's honor is also at risk. It also says that it is not unusual for the family of the male offender to kill him in tandem with the family of the female offender killing her, to prevent an extended blood feud. Looking at the document, the consent of the woman doesn't even seem to be a matter of importance for the family involved - it's just, did these people have illegitimate sex? If they did, and thus dishonored the family, there's a chance the family will find them worthy of death. Law enforcement in this region doesn't seem to abet the honor killings, and seems to be interested in mediating peaceful solutions to avoid honor killings, but doesn't seem (from the report) to be interested in punishing honor killings. And it seems that men don't generally seek out law enforcement's protection after an honor killing, though they are at risk.

https://www.nyidanma...SLUTRAPPORT.pdf
(LOL slut rapport)

The report claims that, at least in the KRI, it's actually harder for men to get protection from an honor killing since there's less infrastructure for them to be sheltered or whatever by the government; at the same time, they do seem to be at less risk (thoguh not no risk) of being killed by their own families than women, and it seems that there is a large and influential tribe that often takes a role in negotiating settlements in the matter of honor crimes that those from smaller tribes can try to work with and get protection from.

I have to wonder to what degree religious and "cultural" differences might simply be convenient excuses, rather than the killings being symptomatic of heavily patriarchal societies.

Of course, without a lot of detailed investigation, we might say as easily that heavily patriarchal societies are symptomatic of certain religious and cultural differences.

Edited by Hawkeye Hank Hatfield, 19 June 2012 - 04:36 PM.

[BBM]

The idea that honour killings are things that don't happen in North America is a very wrong notion.

Last year, a man in Montreal killed one of his wives (yes, he had two) and three daughters for "improper behaviour". He was aided by his second wife and his oldest son in this. It was called the Shafia case, if anyone wants to read about it. I also vaguely remember this case years back about a man in Vancouver who hired someone to kill his daughter and her husband because she didn't marry a Muslim. Now, these cases both originate in Canada because I'm Canadian and therefore know these stories better, but I'm sure they've happened in USA as well.

[1st Mate Bob]

The idea that honour killings are things that don't happen in North America is a very wrong notion.

Last year, a man in Montreal killed one of his wives (yes, he had two) and three daughters for "improper behaviour". He was aided by his second wife and his oldest son in this. It was called the Shafia case, if anyone wants to read about it. I also vaguely remember this case years back about a man in Vancouver who hired someone to kill his daughter and her husband because she didn't marry a Muslim. Now, these cases both originate in Canada because I'm Canadian and therefore know these stories better, but I'm sure they've happened in USA as well.

The difference is that those murders actually went to trial and the perpetrator was actually sentenced.

Edited by 1st Mate Bob, 19 June 2012 - 07:45 PM.

[BBM]

The difference is that those murders actually went to trial and the perpetrator was actually sentenced.

That doesn't mean it's not an issue.

[1st Mate Bob]

That doesn't mean it's not an issue.

Honor killings specifically aren't an issue, because in the eyes of the judicial system, it's still just murder. Your own justifications don't hold up whatsoever.

The issue in question is that in certain countries, honor killings are legal.