46 replies to this topic

[aku chi]

Colonel M and starwave- Is it that hard to understand that having limited EP exposure is bad? Like, he cant go in and rip everything apart like other characters can for fear of his gauge and lack of 1-2 range.

And what of Soren and Calill, who can't come close to surviving the number of enemies needed to deplete Ranulf's gauge? Or how about Nephenee, who has poor durability, is unlikely to exceed Ranulf's Atk at 1-range (and has pitiful 1-2 range combat), and needs resources to double? Or Boyd (N), who fails to double even with a Speedwings and has durability issues to boot? These four units have serious flaws that, IMO, exceed Ranulf's.

[Vicious Sal]

Because boyd doesn't get doubled and 3hko'd after he detransforms, has two range, in the form of hand axe forges if needed, doesn't have to keep chugging olivi grasses...


The list kinda goes on and on... Also, a speedwing if he gets one (haar, tits) are less of a resource than 4 levels of bexp, and perhaps a drop and shield.



also, four levels of BEXP: 7200 at MAX on HM after 3-3, that is what ranulf has available at 3-4. He has 11925 at 3-7 available at MAX. You know how much it takes for him to get four levels? It's 8400 or 8500 (cant recall if level gets rounded up or down after x 1.5 multiplication)

8400 out of 12000 BExp is a SHITLOAD. Is it useful to invest it on a unit with lolcatgauge and no two range? hell no. You know how much we can bump up Boyd with that? 5 levels, almost 6, well, I think with speed being TIED for his third best growth, we can see some Spd points that can make him start doubling with those fun hand axes.

How can anyone have missed this.

Once again. 4 levels of BEXP is a MAJOR INVESTMENT. Ranulf won't be taking at least three quarters of that for himself. Also, it takes 8 enemies to deplete ranulfs gauge in one go, assumin the damn thing is full. That isnt good, espacially if it means you detransform after and are a sitting duck. Hell, he detransforms on PP if he gets attacked 7 times. Cat gauge SUCKS, get it? Also, If you need to chug an olivi grass every PP you don't get the option of healing yourself, and no, ranulf is not indestructible. He gets back 15 points, to stay on MAX gauge, he is allowed to be attacked TWICE per enemy phase. Just to keep his gauge full after grassing. Wow, two whole enemies... Also, A strike is suckish as it is for every laguz. He levels incredibly slow, and this is HM, so as stated before, BEXP is LOW.

And what of Soren and Calill, who can't come close to surviving the number of enemies needed to deplete Ranulf's gauge? Or how about Nephenee, who has poor durability, is unlikely to exceed Ranulf's Atk at 1-range (and has pitiful 1-2 range combat), and needs resources to double? Or Boyd (N), who fails to double even with a Speedwings and has durability issues to boot? These four units have serious flaws that, IMO, exceed Ranulf's.

Soren and calill are mages for starters, that means two range, which is attacking from a distance, not taking a counter that much. Soren also gets almost a sull SIX levels with the same amount of bexp as i stated for ranulf. Same for calill. Archsages also get extra durability in the form of flare. Indeed, they don't survive 8 enemies at once, but at least they damage the four enemies that attack them. Instead of the one that has one range, and the others just whittling away your gauge.

I'm not even taking nephenee seriously. I mean, you are criticizing a unit that has an amazing speed growth for starters, and are then bashing her "pitiful" two range combat. Haha, want to take a look at pitiful two range combat? Look at ranulf! Also, how are javelins, short spears and jav forges pitiful? She might just get javelins, but i'll gladly take those over a 1-range claw.



As for Boyd, take a DAMN look at what i just calculated.





Couldn't be arsed to throw this in Lyre's topic.

[Starwave]

You're out of your mind if you think Ranulf "requires" 4 levels of BEXP to be good for most of the game. (He requires it for part IV IF YOU WANT TO USE HIM (realistically he'll be benched for the royals), but its not needed in part III where he's relevant for most of it!). His bases are enough to take him through as a high tier combat unit part III alone. You're making a mountain out of a molehill sal and focusing on insubstantial clainm. Regardless, the fact that you consider Soren and Calill to better than Ranulf is trouble. The two don't conceivably promote in part III (unless you're willing to make them under-statted, especially Calill) and neither of them are very good units at all. Killing 4 units? You give them too much credit. The rest of your post doesn't really cover new ground. Ranulf sounds poor on paper, but anyone with a shred of foresight can plan ahead to avoid having Ranulf de-transform on the EP. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp.


Whatever, at this point its just people who "get it" (akuchi and Tyranel M) against people who don't.

Colonel M and starwave- Is it that hard to understand that having limited EP exposure is bad? Like, he cant go in and rip everything apart like other characters can for fear of his gauge and lack of 1-2 range. I myself rated him that low based on personal experience LOW TURNING THE GAME MULTIPLE TIMES. His bases are great and he has pretty good combat, thats for sure. But he cant go in and murder everything in an EP compared to other characters. Sure, you can avoid this problem by not exposing him as much, grassing, etc, but that just proves that his gauge gets in the way of him murdering things.

Yes, yes, you're great at playing through hard mode with a low turn count, however you're wrong in that you CAN use Ranulf efficiently. I still think you're using him the wrong way... he should be used as efficiently as possible; he's not like haar, ike or titania (you can't just throw him out there and expect him to kill 7+ enemies in one turn.) However, he's one of the most reliable members on the GMs in terms of ACTUALLY KILLING THINGS (if you want something dead then they're dead)


BTW, PEMN dude (it's like the FE tenant), we're supposed to be objective as possible. Otherwise i'd be giving out oddball scores on a 24/7 basis.

Edited by Starwave, 22 June 2012 - 06:06 AM.

[aku chi]

Once again. 4 levels of BEXP is a MAJOR INVESTMENT. Ranulf won't be taking at least three quarters of that for himself.

I have not argued that Ranulf needs to take any Bexp to be valuable. Nobody has argued that it is wise to give Ranulf 4 levels of Bexp in 3-4. Ranulf is valuable in Part 3 at base. If we want him to be particularly useful in Part 4, we can Bexp-Blossom slowplay him 4 levels in the latter half of Part 3 and give him Rend. If not, he's still a small help in 4-2 at base.

Also, it takes 8 enemies to deplete ranulfs gauge in one go, assumin the damn thing is full. That isnt good, espacially if it means you detransform after and are a sitting duck. Hell, he detransforms on PP if he gets attacked 7 times. Cat gauge SUCKS, get it?

The number of units you can safely throw into 7-8 units is tiny (just Haar, Gatrie, and Mordecai - but all are vulnerable to Sages), so Ranulf is hardly alone in this limitation.

Also, If you need to chug an olivi grass every PP you don't get the option of healing yourself, and no, ranulf is not indestructible.

He's pretty damn close to it in Part 3. He has more concrete durability than Haar and Gatrie (plus decent Res) and more avoid than Mia (sans supports). So maybe Ranulf will need to be staff-healed once on some chapters. Maybe.

He gets back 15 points, to stay on MAX gauge, he is allowed to be attacked TWICE per enemy phase. Just to keep his gauge full after grassing. Wow, two whole enemies...

Ranulf can sustain 3 enemy phase attacks for 7 turns (in other words, the whole chapter). Ranulf can also sustain up to 7 attacks on an enemy phase, untransform and grass the next turn (taking a turn off), and retransform the following turn at at least 27 gauge.

Also, A strike is suckish as it is for every laguz. He levels incredibly slow, and this is HM, so as stated before, BEXP is LOW.

Still, Ranulf's 36 base Atk is better than what the likes of Mia and Nephenee can realistically reach in Part 3 with Steel forges. It even matches Oscar's tier 2 1-range attack. And Ranulf can put Adept to use at least as well as Mia and Nephenee, turning his many 3HKOs into ORKOs (51% chance at base). And if you actually use Ranulf, he will reach S-Strike in the tail end of Part 3, boosting his Atk to a respectable 41. An Energy Drop also boosts Ranulf's Atk by 4, which is more than can be said for Mia, Nephenee, and Oscar.

Soren and calill are mages for starters, that means two range, which is attacking from a distance, not taking a counter that much.

You were criticizing Ranulf's enemy phase, because he can't safely engage 4+ enemies per turn. What restrains you from criticizing Soren and Calill for not being able to safely engage 2-3 enemies on enemy phase due to poor durability?

Soren also gets almost a sull SIX levels with the same amount of bexp as i stated for ranulf. Same for calill. Archsages also get extra durability in the form of flare.

I'll engage in this straw man for a moment: so what? Six Bexp levels still won't enable Soren or Calill to safely engage more than 3 enemies on enemy phase. Archsage performance is pretty irrelevant for Soren and Calill (they take a Master Crown just so that they have a chance to survive 3-4 enemies on EP in Part 4, while failing to double and occasionally failing to 2HKO (especially Calill)).

Indeed, they don't survive 8 enemies at once, but at least they damage the four enemies that attack them. Instead of the one that has one range, and the others just whittling away your gauge.

~70% of all enemies are 1-range locked. I'd prefer Ranulf's ability to 2RKO every 1-range enemy and ORKO some of those enemies (especially with Adept) to Soren and Calill's inability to double and occasional inability to 2RKO.

I'm not even taking nephenee seriously. I mean, you are criticizing a unit that has an amazing speed growth for starters, and are then bashing her "pitiful" two range combat. Haha, want to take a look at pitiful two range combat? Look at ranulf! Also, how are javelins, short spears and jav forges pitiful? She might just get javelins, but i'll gladly take those over a 1-range claw.

Yes, I'm criticizing a unit that can take 15 levels and still be flat out worse than Ranulf at base. Nephenee needs to be ~level 7 to double Halberdiers and Warriors in 3-2. That isn't happening in HM, unless we give Nephenee all of our Part 2 Bexp. Nepehenee needs to be ~level 9 to double Halberdiers and Warriors in 3-5. Ranulf doubles even Swordmasters throughout all of Part 3 at base.

As for Atk, Ranulf's 36 base Atk may not be great, but it's much better than Nephenee's. Nephenee needs to be ~level 18 or 10/1 before she can match Ranulf's base Atk with a Steel Lance forge. By the time Nephenee reaches that level, if she ever does, Ranulf will have S-Strike anyway. Ranulf may have no 1-2 range, but he can outdamage Javelin Nephenee with Quickclaw! Nephenee's base 21 Atk with a Javelin is so pitiful that even Lyre out-damages her. A level 7 Nephenee with a Short Spear isn't tons better (ooh, 27 Atk with imperfect Hit). She still deals less damage than a crappy Crossbow (and Quickclaw Ranulf). Even with a Javelin forge in 3-8, Nephenee struggles to ORKO Sages or 2RKO physical units. So forgive me if I'm not impressed by Nephenee's 1-2 range combat.

As for Boyd, take a DAMN look at what i just calculated.

Now attempt an argument that doesn't rely on the Bexp straw-man. How is Boyd (N) ever doubling in HM? And if he isn't doubling, how is he ever out-damaging Ranulf? And if he doesn't have better combat, how is he a more valuable unit?

Edited by aku chi, 22 June 2012 - 07:46 AM.

[Colonel M]

Colonel M and starwave- Is it that hard to understand that having limited EP exposure is bad? Like, he cant go in and rip everything apart like other characters can for fear of his gauge and lack of 1-2 range. I myself rated him that low based on personal experience LOW TURNING THE GAME MULTIPLE TIMES. His bases are great and he has pretty good combat, thats for sure. But he cant go in and murder everything in an EP compared to other characters. Sure, you can avoid this problem by not exposing him as much, grassing, etc, but that just proves that his gauge gets in the way of him murdering things.

Even in the scenario that gauge gets in the way, it's a little more forgiving than not being able to double anything without major investment within other units that are above him to get there. For fucks sake, in my playthrough I almost wish I put more investment into Ranulf than Nephenee. Nephenee was nearly trash.

Also Vicious Sal - Spd and Skl are tied for fourth highest growths. HP is first at 80%, Str at 65%, Def at 50%, then Skl and Spd at 45%. Luck is also kind of high at 40%. You would have to throw the Seraph Robe on Boyd to assure yourself that Skl / Spd are tied for third highest growths.

Edited by Tyranel M, 22 June 2012 - 10:29 AM.

[Vicious Sal]

Before you read this, it'll be my last reply about this, so i don't care how much you try to shred it apart. Ranulfs rating stands, and that wont change anyway.

I have not argued that Ranulf needs to take any Bexp to be valuable. Nobody has argued that it is wise to give Ranulf 4 levels of Bexp in 3-4. Ranulf is valuable in Part 3 at base. If we want him to be particularly useful in Part 4, we can Bexp-Blossom slowplay him 4 levels in the latter half of Part 3 and give him Rend. If not, he's still a small help in 4-2 at base.

This was not aimed at you anyway for starters, Starwave had a statement about the bexp. "Giving him 4 levels of BEXP isn't that big of a deal at all (even in hard mode) unless you're dead set on not using him". And because of that I threw those basic examples on the table. Taking 2/3 out of your BEXP in 3-7 is shit. That Bexp is better invested elsewhere, and you aren't even guaranteed to get all of it. So realistically Ranulf is indeed getting Rend at the very end of part three. Or at Part four base.

The number of units you can safely throw into 7-8 units is tiny (just Haar, Gatrie, and Mordecai - but all are vulnerable to Sages), so Ranulf is hardly alone in this limitation.

True, but the number of Units that can actually counter half of those enmies is way higher. Also, since we enter 3-4 3-4, Titania should be in that list. Gatire, Titania, Haar. They all have two range. Mordecai is just that huge tank, has no 2 range either, but at least he doesnt detransform if he takes on 7-8 units.

He's pretty damn close to it in Part 3. He has more concrete durability than Haar and Gatrie (plus decent Res) and more avoid than Mia (sans supports). So maybe Ranulf will need to be staff-healed once on some chapters. Maybe.

I assume we are talking base haar etc here. How on earth is Haar not leveling up 5 times in his entire part two, and 3-2 and 3-3. It's not that big of a stretch, he is the best unit in the game, we kinda expect to throw him in the fray every turn.Gatrie has to level up 4 times to match the Defense. He probably wont get that in 3-4, but he'll be damn close. Actually, since gatrie hates his T2 Speed cap, he can be a viable user of the 3-3 Crown, boosting his defense and offense quite a bit. It's not a set given, but it's a possibility. Also, I do concede that Ranulf will have the Hp lead for quite a while.

Ranulf can sustain 3 enemy phase attacks for 7 turns (in other words, the whole chapter). Ranulf can also sustain up to 7 attacks on an enemy phase, untransform and grass the next turn (taking a turn off), and retransform the following turn at at least 27 gauge.

So Ranulf get's to take out three enemies on a turn, if they are all one range, then has to grass on PP, and repeat the cycle? Remember me why that is just as good as just throwing haar in the middle of the map and having him destroy stuff? Or having titania or gatrie either ORKO or at least severely damage a lot of stuff with either a Hand axe, possibly forged?

Still, Ranulf's 36 base Atk is better than what the likes of Mia and Nephenee can realistically reach in Part 3 with Steel forges. It even matches Oscar's tier 2 1-range attack. And Ranulf can put Adept to use at least as well as Mia and Nephenee, turning his many 3HKOs into ORKOs (51% chance at base). And if you actually use Ranulf, he will reach S-Strike in the tail end of Part 3, boosting his Atk to a respectable 41. An Energy Drop also boosts Ranulf's Atk by 4, which is more than can be said for Mia, Nephenee, and Oscar.

I assume we talk Part three as in 3-4. Indeed, Neph has to be Level 18 for that, And then needs a + 5 might steel forge. That isn't happening. She needs to be rougly 20/20/1 With a forge. However your first argument that she needs resources to double is ludicrous, because even as a level 8-9 unit she starts doubling 3-4 Units. And your argument was that their flaws are more severe, which is entirely false. Since Soren and Calill are not pure combat orientated, they arent designed to take a poleaxe to the fface because they can just lol at the warrior from a distance. (Have a little not towards starwave for this same argument at the bottom) Nephenee has no troubles doubling. I derped on Boyd's growths (Thanks for pointing that out Tyranel M), so i'll give you that. But if you take a look at what I have listed later on, you will notice how much 2 range there actually is in this game.

You were criticizing Ranulf's enemy phase, because he can't safely engage 4+ enemies per turn. What restrains you from criticizing Soren and Calill for not being able to safely engage 2-3 enemies on enemy phase due to poor durability?

As stated before, because they function differently, as sagesthey attack from a range, to avoid most counters, or take a hit from mages back. They are made out of paper, but 2 range is incredibly valuable. As a last note, I was criticizing Ranulf his EP because of his Gauge, which of course, sages do not have.

I'll engage in this straw man for a moment: so what? Six Bexp levels still won't enable Soren or Calill to safely engage more than 3 enemies on enemy phase. Archsage performance is pretty irrelevant for Soren and Calill (they take a Master Crown just so that they have a chance to survive 3-4 enemies on EP in Part 4, while failing to double and occasionally failing to 2HKO (especially Calill)).

I never said it did, I just pointed out that the amount of BExp is just a huge amount for only a few levels of bexp for ranulf. Also, Sages are mostly used for the desert with Resolve, it's why Sages are very valuable in drafts as well. Anyway, not my main point.

~70% of all enemies are 1-range locked. I'd prefer Ranulf's ability to 2RKO every 1-range enemy and ORKO some of those enemies (especially with Adept) to Soren and Calill's inability to double and occasional inability to 2RKO.

HAHA


here is a list:
3-4: 17/37 ,5 Elfire [Yes, 17 out of 37 enemies are 2 range or 1-2 range]
3-7: 24/48, 2 Elfire [Half of the map, this is without DB, because their inventory switches ofc]
3-8: 18/40 , 5 Elfire [ Almost half again! These were all with reinforcements taken into account btw]
I couldn't be arsed to note down the rest, but it's not 70 % One range, trust me.


3-8: 18/40 , 5 Elfire
Yes, I'm criticizing a unit that can take 15 levels and still be flat out worse than Ranulf at base. Nephenee needs to be ~level 7 to double Halberdiers and Warriors in 3-2. That isn't happening in HM, unless we give Nephenee all of our Part 2 Bexp. Nepehenee needs to be ~level 9 to double Halberdiers and Warriors in 3-5. Ranulf doubles even Swordmasters throughout all of Part 3 at base.

As for Atk, Ranulf's 36 base Atk may not be great, but it's much better than Nephenee's. Nephenee needs to be ~level 18 or 10/1 before she can match Ranulf's base Atk with a Steel Lance forge. By the time Nephenee reaches that level, if she ever does, Ranulf will have S-Strike anyway. Ranulf may have no 1-2 range, but he can outdamage Javelin Nephenee with Quickclaw! Nephenee's base 21 Atk with a Javelin is so pitiful that even Lyre out-damages her. A level 7 Nephenee with a Short Spear isn't tons better (ooh, 27 Atk with imperfect Hit). She still deals less damage than a crappy Crossbow (and Quickclaw Ranulf). Even with a Javelin forge in 3-8, Nephenee struggles to ORKO Sages or 2RKO physical units. So forgive me if I'm not impressed by Nephenee's 1-2 range combat.

This you had adressed earlier, the speed at least, so not bothering the comment anymore, we disagree on this anyhow. And I once again refer to the 2 range list, quickclaw is better off sold, since it doesnt help reliably anyway.

Now attempt an argument that doesn't rely on the Bexp straw-man. How is Boyd (N) ever doubling in HM? And if he isn't doubling, how is he ever out-damaging Ranulf? And if he doesn't have better combat, how is he a more valuable unit?

As I said, I depred on the growths, so the BEXp doesn't help him on that. But i'll say it again, Hand axe. I once again refer to that nice list of the amount of two range.



You brought a lot of good arguments against Neph and Boyd, although Imo you are underleveling Neph, but anyway. Yeah, It's a huge list of 2 range units. Almost half of the maps is 2 range, that's not good for any 1 range locked unit. Especially with lolcatgauge.


Anyway, Í'm done iwth this, since this has lingered long enough.





Last tibbits for star wave:



"Calill to better than Ranulf is trouble. The two don't conceivably promote in part III (unless you're willing to make them under-statted, especially Calill) and neither of them are very good units at all. Killing 4 units? You give them too much credit. The rest of your post doesn't really cover new ground. Ranulf sounds poor on paper, but anyone with a shred of foresight can plan ahead to avoid having Ranulf de-transform on the EP. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp."



Because I never said Killing 4 enemies, I said Damaging, so learn to read before you start yelling. And the concept isn't hard to grasp at all, on averge every other enemy Ranulf faces lols at him from a distance. FYI, That sucks. If you can't attack every other enemy that targets you. And if you lose gauge from it to boot.... Yeah, Suckish unit.



And the very last bit:

"Whatever, at this point its just people who "get it" (akuchi and Tyranel M) against people who don't."


So you are basically saying we are right and that makes us smart and the rest is stupid. Very mature...

[Florina Stark]

Yet they're assed to trying to make units like Boyd and Soren, who need more work than Ranulf? That's a gigantic contradiction!

Ummm...if you saw Soren's rating topic, you'd see that most people either hate his poor little guts or are not arsed to use him at all outside like a couple of chapters.

Boyd...Doesnt require a lot of resources except maybe a speedwing and maybe a forge?