Pokemon Black/White 2 Ingame Tier List

[Bluedoom]

Tbh I don't know if Riolu is really worth it in high. (I agree I haven't used this yet- currently in my 1st playthrough and I'm going to get to the 7th gym soon) But honestly I question running off of force palm for most of the game.

[dondon151]

So I tried playing this game, and desmume doesn't give more than 50% speed on my computer, so fuck this shit.

[grandjackal]

Bumping, Red said I could.

Anywho, since hte game is now released internationally, surprised to not see more discussion on this. Taking a sort of glance at this...

-Why in the holy hell is Growlithe in mid? Before I say anything on Growlithe's behalf, I just wanna hear the rationale on something that is obviously wrong.

-Reading through the previous posts, I see a sort of argument for Volcarona getting a Heart Scale for Ember? It's not quite like a TM in past games, since I'm sure there is most certainly better recipients. Lucario is definitely one of them with Dark Pulse giving him a great coverage move. Like, Volcarona has the issue that it literally has no good moves until like way later. Great stats sure, but they aren't so great as being able to work with like 30-35 BP moves. Unless I'm missing something big,which I could be. I'm not fully familiar with a game that is still a bit new to me. I guess it has a pretty great lategame though with move tutors and such, so I can't give it too much shit.

-Ehhhh, not sure about Tepig being mid. Has similar problems to Volcarona, but trades lategame for very very very minimal earlygame goodness (Burgh and that's it. Imo, at least). I feel he has a lot of similar problems to Snivy in that he requires a bit too much setup, though replace Snivy's bad offense stats with Tepig's terribad movepool and no good TMs available to him.

-Anyone feel Sandshrew should be high? Great typing, comes at the perfect time (elesa's gym, a gym he destroys), can learn Rock Tomb/Rock Slide for flying types, great Atk and physical bulk, also learns X Scissor from the TM outside the flying gym town, gets Earthquake naturally before the 7th gym in a game where you don't have a lot of answers to Dragons. His only real problem is that he's slow, which I don't feel is that impacting since not a lot of mons in this game seem consistantly fast.

Can't think of much else at the moment. Haven't quite experimented with a huge amount of mons quite yet. Only played through 4 times so far, and I tend to keep my team size at 3 until Lucky Egg where I catch a 4th, and then like maaaaaaaybe a 5th at super lategame (like Metang or Terrakion).

Edited November 4, 2012 by grandjackal

[Breezy Kanzaki]

-Anyone feel Sandshrew should be high? Great typing, comes at the perfect time (elesa's gym, a gym he destroys), can learn Rock Tomb/Rock Slide for flying types, great Atk and physical bulk, also learns X Scissor from the TM outside the flying gym town, gets Earthquake naturally before the 7th gym in a game where you don't have a lot of answers to Dragons. His only real problem is that he's slow, which I don't feel is that impacting since not a lot of mons in this game seem consistantly fast.

Also coming from the fact Earthquake only comes post-game, Sandslash is a good Pokemon. Great Physical Defense and a decent movepool.

[Samias]

Gigalith, even though it's available in an in-game trade, should not be in high. It can basically only take on Skyla, and then he's just slow and gets reamed by special attacks. Sturdy means he'll be able to hit at least one thing, but so can Aron, who I might add is caught at a time where he takes only two or so levels to evolve into Lairon. And then Lairon/Aggron at least has Elite 4 coverage with Shadow Claw, Dig, Low Kick, and elemental punches at its disposal (though you have to pick carefully with those last ones due to shard rarity). Gigalith has rock moves, Bulldoze, and MAYBE Superpower if you had the shards to get it, but Lairon/Aggron can also get Superpower. Overall, Lairon's lower stats are made up with by excellent coverage and a solid ability. Gigalith is just rock moves in a game where rock coverage isn't actually that good after you get him. If Aron is too slow to be considered higher than mid, then Gigalith isn't any higher.

I am going to advocate Growlith for high. Intimidate is an awesome ability (though Flash Fire is not awful), Growlithe takes less time now to gain good moves, his level-up coverage includes fire, dark, and dragon, he comes in before Burgh and decimates the gym, he can use the Dig TM, and a fire stone is available in the early mid game so you can decide when you've had enough of Growlithe and want to move onto Arcanine. Arcanine has a really nice BST spread with nothing lower than 80, and his speed and attack, while not THE best, are still fairly impressive, especially by in-game standards. The whole midgame really wants something that uses a fire (or flying) moves, and Growlithe did not disappoint. Then, with his dragon moves, he is a great choice against Drayden, and later Iris.

Edited November 4, 2012 by Samias

[Zkirsche]

The only things I can think of is that Petilil might be too high, mono grass is not that great for anything besides Clay, and we'll *probably* have Oshawott for that. I don't see what it does which is so special which puts it about Seawaddle/Cottonee.

Speaking of grass types I kinda want to see Ferroseed go to mid. Ok it has appalling speed but tanks really well and grass/stell is a lot better coverage than what a lot of mid has to offer. Very few pokemon use fire attacks and as long as it stays away from them it should be fine. Dunno how much we're penalising that speed, though, which is undoutably awful.

It'd help things if the tiers weren't so big, as it just feels so hard to argue anything. There may be one or two major mistakes but having an upper and lower mid would perhaps liven discussion as well as making things tidier (look at how big low tier is).

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 5, 2020 by Don Draper

[Shadow Mir]

Azurill skyrocketed to high? What the...? Could you please explain?

Edited November 5, 2012 by Golden Cucco

[dondon151]

On the other hand, you could evolve him at Level 34 (after Flamethrower) but then he's very one-dimensional, and doesn't really shine against anyone outside of Colress.

aren't most pokemon one-dimensional

like magnemite

also i don't get the azurill to high tier thing either; azumarill is so slow

Edited November 5, 2012 by dondon151

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 5, 2020 by Don Draper

[dondon151]

Azurill's earlygame performance is unjustifiably considered terrible because most people overestimate the importance of base stats earlygame. The difference between Azurill and somebody like Lillipup is almost negligible until around Level 15. Azurill's evolving shortly after then.

L15 seems really early for a happiness evolution

[grandjackal]

Not really buying the Growlithe hype yet.

Sure he'll eventually get moves such as Crunch and Outrage, but it'll take until Level 43 for the latter. Handy for Drayden, but terrible vs, Marlon and then Crunch w/out STAB is only doing so much vs. the Elite 4. I really don't like the fact that you get it before the second gym and then, Burgh aside, he's rather unspectacular until Drayden. Especially since he spends so much time NFE.

On the other hand, you could evolve him at Level 34 (after Flamethrower) but then he's very one-dimensional, and doesn't really shine against anyone outside of Colress.

Well we could start with STAB Ember on gym 2, considering Whirlipede is bug type. Unless you picked Tepig, who are some of your better mons vs that gym in general? Then of course, Burgh is naturally stuffed by Growlithe. I'm guessing that's pretty much what has him where he is right now.

But then there's that whole issue on "but I wanna evolve it now". Why? Growlithe is actually super solid even unevolved. Flame Wheel STAB with great physical attack and an actual speed stat makes for pretty decent use, along with Bite and eventually Crunch for further coverage, and ultimately Outrage for the anti-dragon power. Bite can work on the many Claydols on Clay's gym, Sandiles are hardly durable...Then there's that kind of large expanse of dead space between Skyla and Drayden's gym....I guess I'm just kinda mehing about here.

As a note, if you evolve it at...some point? I was talking to Espinosa about this, but you can also have Arcanine learn Thunder Fang if you'd prefer him to be good against Skyla/not be quite as assy vs Merlon. I guess it's a way to trade lategame for midgame. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that he's not as one dimensional as you claim.

EDIT: Concerning Azumarill, SDS tells me outside of Driftveil on the route to Chargestone, you can catch an Azumarill in shaking grass that has Aqua Tail already learned. No happiness evo required, and STAB Huge Power Aqua Tail.

Edited November 5, 2012 by grandjackal

[Samias]

I also want to add that you might have enough shards for Dragon Pulse instead of Outrage if you want to evolve Growlithe early, though I found I could wait with eviolite equipped and still eat through the huge swath of fire and dark weak Mons between Clay all the way to Drayden.

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 5, 2020 by Don Draper

[grandjackal]

Growlithe w/ Bite is rarely sufficient for an OHKO.

Example:

Level 30 Growlithe (15 IVs, 30 EVs, neutral): 53 Atk, 47 Spd

Level 30 Baltoy (15 IVs, no EVs, neutral): 68 HP, 42 Def, 42 Spd

Growlithe w/ Bite does 39-46 damage. 2HKO. Considering he's weak to everything in the gym, 2HKOing isn't really cutting it.

Then later against say...a trainer's Yamask in Celestial Tower...

Level 37 Growlithe (15 IVs, 30 EVs, neutral): 64 Atk

Level 36 Yamask (15 IVs, no EVs, neutral): 76 HP, 69 Def

Growlithe w/ Bite does 35-41 damage. Chance of a 3HKO which is pretty mediocre. Even Lvl 39 Growlithe w/ Crunch does 51-60 damage. No OHKO.

To be honest, I really don't see where he's supposed to stand out. Burgh is cool. Drayden, maybe. Other than that...eh.

These levels look kinda low...Like I had at least Outrage by the time I got on the plane to Fake Mexico (I cannot for the life of me remember the name of some of these towns.).

[Sasori]

I'm no expert, but should Zorua be so high? I used one and it did't impress me at all.

Yeah illusion screws the enemy over, but its really frail. Not only that, but snarl is his only special stab move untill night daze. His entire level up movepool consists of nothing, but physical dark attacks untill level 64 and some status attacks.

You could teach him dark pulse, but 10 shards is a heavy investment. And I don't recall him having a good tm selection either except shadow ball and a flametrower that comes late.

And I can't recall any situation before the e4 that dark was a handy type to have around.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Sasori

[FrostyFireMage]

Darumaka is overrated. I tried using it once and it missed about half the time.

That and I just plain hate it in general.

[Samias]

Growlithe wasn't TOP tier amazing but unless you run around with repel on all the time, Growlithe is an great lead to take on the routes between Clay and Skyla, and also Celestial Tower because he can't suffer from burn status from the Litwicks and cleanly 1 or 2HKOs them while taking a pittance of damage (or no damage) back. With the exp he gets from that stretch where he's not as helpful for gym coverage, he can get Outrage for Drayden and absolutely trash the gym with a 120 BP dragon move on 110 base attack. He lands a lot of easy OHKOs, and anything he doesn't OHKO probably doesn't have the power to KO Arcanine back. After that, he sits out for Marlon unless you're insane enough to try Thunder Fang, but then he handles Colress with ease, and can also help take out Kyurem. Then he's got a solid Elite 4 coverage with Crunch and Outrage and a powerful neutral hit on most things with Flamethrower, not to mention Intimidate just helps the whole team out.

Why's Sandile moved down to High? I would keep him in Top. He was my team's MVP, hands down. Hits hard, hits fast, he'll probably have earthquake by the Plasma Frigate but he actually DOES make good use of Bulldoze beforehand. He trashes Elesa's gym, he can take on Excadrill in Clay's gym, crunches ghosts and psychics in Celestial Tower, is awesome in every double and triple battle because of rock slide + bulldoze/EQ, and dominates the Plasma Frigate. Against the Elite 4 he mows down Chauntal and Caitlin, and even Iris if you make it to level 60 and learn Outrage (not implausible). If he had Intimidate, he's a great team player and can be used in tandem with a defensive mon for attack-killing shenanigans (aka how I cheesed Cynthia's Garchomp to harmlessness despite being 10 levels below her), but if he has Moxie, even his neutral hits will become haymakers. Absolutely a quality Pokemon.

Quality water types are so rare in Unova so I dunno about Oshawott moving down from Top, but at the same time, I don't love Oshawott as much as I ever loved any of the other water starters. I'm too lazy to argue why he shouldn't have been moved down, but at the same time, Oshawott is in a speed tier that noticeably lacks.

I might suggest splitting up the tiers even more, splitting up mid and low into Upper Mid, Mid, Lower Mid, and Low, since if we're just leaving things in alphabetical order, it'll be easier to see the worth of the mons that way. Growlithe and Magmar might be described as Upper Mid quality, Psyduck and Buizel in Lower Mid (or maybe even Mid but I won't make that argument), and so on and so forth. Right now Mid and Low are so dense and some mons are really borderline in their respective tiers.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Samias

[Ema Skye]

@Sasori: Zorua also gets trade exp though, which is pretty awesome since it means you can have a slightly bigger team pre-Lucky Egg. It's also 5 levels away from evolution, which is when it gets Night Slash, whic can function as it's main STAB for most of the game, because Zoroark still has a solid attack stat. Night Slash, Low Kick (Driftveil Tutor) hit everything except for Toxicroak and Heracross for neutral, which is pretty sweet. It does kinda suck that it lacks special Dark-type STAB until either Lv.64 or you collect 10 Blue Shards, but it is capable to work around it. It's also worth mentioning that the gift Zorua comes with 30 IVs in every stat (which does give Hidden Power Fighting if you wanna go that route), and I believe the nature is predetermined as well (I believe it's Hasty nature (+Spe, -Def)).

@Frosty Fire Mage: Darmanitan's stat spread is perfect for in-game (140 Attack and 95 Speed is only beaten by Haxorus (on the physical side) and Volcarona/Espeon (on the special side)). Then consider than Darmanitan's Flare Blitz is the strongest attack in the game, after you factor in Sheer Force. Fire still hits most of mid-game for at least neutral, and when it starts to falter for Drayden and Marlon, it can fall back on Hammer Arm or Rock Slide. Totally deserving of a top tier slot imo. Hustle is kinda lame, but Fire Fang is still 76% accurate with it (and Fire Punch is 80%, so you've got either a lot of bad luck or a pretty big hyperbole).

Also agreeing with Samias about splitting the tiers up more (probably by introducing Upper and Lower Middle tiers). Middle and Low tiers are really huge.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Piss Sick Lawyer Lucina

[eclipse]

Growlithe's problem in Celestial Tower is that the lower-level Litwicks know Night Shade, and that WILL hurt. Thanks to doing stupid things like slapping Eviolite on it, I was able to keep it viable until it learned Flare Blitz (Giant Chasm, first visit), and then things went much more smoothly.

[Raven]

I had my Riolu evolved by Lv19, which I thought was really early. Lv15 seems very low for a happiness evolution. I dropped it for Aron though, since Force Palm wasn't going to carry much further.

My Arcanine blitzed the Plasma Frigate. I had him evolve after he'd learned Crunch. Definitely better than most in mid tier.

As for Crobat, I've been surprisingly impressed with his performance. Fly hits very hard, and it out-speeds everything. With Confuse Ray, Toxic/Poison Fang and Venoshock for backup, I find him very useful. But there are undoubtedly better movesets out there for him. My example is just what I'd been using throughout my adventure.

Edit: Just remembered I used Crobat to destroy about 80% of Drayden's gym.

Caught Aron before the 6th gym, and the thing solo'd it all with Rock Slide. Then it went and evolved into Aggron at Lv42. Its defense is through the roof. Aside from decent ground and fighting attacks, it walls every physical move going. But then again Iron Defense can help it last even longer. If an attack does happen to take it down, Sturdy is there to back its shit up and give him at least one STAB Iron Head/Rock Slide in before you switch pokes. And the range of TMs it can learn is crazy. A very versatile tank, if anything. One of my favourites. I think should be up there in High.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Raven

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 5, 2020 by Don Draper

[Samias]

[on Sandile]

I'm not a huge fan of his poor defenses before evolution, late final evolution and sparse movepool until Earthquake at Level 54.

Although durability might be an issue without Intimidate, I found Krokorok KOed things before they could even touch him, even with his "sparse" movepool including Bulldoze/Dig/EQ, Rock Smash as early filler, Rock tomb/slide, Crunch, Aqua Tail, and Outrage. There's also Shadow Claw but that's more or less redundant with Crunch. He hits damn hard with just Dig, cripples things and almost always outspeeds anything he hits with Bulldoze, and he gets crunch pretty early. With Intimidate and Eviolite, Krokorok could take hits on the physical side without much trouble. After evolution, he isn't the sturdiest, but he's not exactly frail. I ran both Dig and Bulldoze in the parts where Krokorok doesn't have all of his coverage moves available yet, except it was great for the not-insignificant number of double and triple battles. Partnered with something that can Fly\Levitate at the top of the roster and he is an exceptional lead for doubles and a good center for triples. This is especially useful in Reversal Mountain, where your first trip through will be nothing but wild double battles and Krokorok deals with everything in both versions.

Also, isn't it a double standard to suggest that Sandile is frail when Darumaka evolves only 5 levels earlier with similar defences (Krokorok only loses out by 10 base HP), worse speed and with no type immunities?

Edited November 6, 2012 by Samias

[Sasori]

@Sasori: Zorua also gets trade exp though, which is pretty awesome since it means you can have a slightly bigger team pre-Lucky Egg. It's also 5 levels away from evolution, which is when it gets Night Slash, whic can function as it's main STAB for most of the game, because Zoroark still has a solid attack stat. Night Slash, Low Kick (Driftveil Tutor) hit everything except for Toxicroak and Heracross for neutral, which is pretty sweet. It does kinda suck that it lacks special Dark-type STAB until either Lv.64 or you collect 10 Blue Shards, but it is capable to work around it. It's also worth mentioning that the gift Zorua comes with 30 IVs in every stat (which does give Hidden Power Fighting if you wanna go that route), and I believe the nature is predetermined as well (I believe it's Hasty nature (+Spe, -Def)).

Oh yeah I keep forgetting about that. Probably because I try to keep my whole team around the same level as each other.

I have another question though. Why is Magby so low? Its fast, hits pretty hard and gets some decent coverage. I know its outclassed by Arcanine and is a little on the frail side, but still.

Edit: Oops nevermind thought I saw him in low. Lower mid isn't all that bad for him.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Sasori

[Bluedoom]

Is it possibly to raise trapinch? Its pretty awesome in Elesa's gym, especially with Rockslide, and it can use faint attacks on the Baltoy in Clay's gym(actually does it have FA at base?) it also has rockslide for Skyle even though her Skarmory walls that and Swanna is part water but it should probably be a Vibrava by then. Having Levitate also means its resistant to lategame EQ, and as a Flygon it improves greatly, 'nuff said.