17 replies to this topic

[Psych]

I really am this bored. Plus I am currently playing Gaiden right now.


Assume no to minimal grinding. Characters who start as villagers will not have one specific path, but I might break them up into different people later on. Also, no grinding Thief Shrine forever waiting for an Angel Ring in Chapter 1. This also assumes characters are in their natural team, not killed off and revived on the other one. I tried to organize the tiers themselves, but there are likely issues.

Spoiler (Alm's Team)

--Top Tier--
Alm
Silk
Clea
Teeta

--High Tier--
Ruka
Cliff
Matilda
Gray

--Mid Tier--
Python
Force
Zeke
Clerbe
Ryuto

--Low Tier--
Maisen
Robin
Dyute

Spoiler (Celica's Team)

--Top Tier--
Catria
Palla
Sevr
Jenny

--High Tier--
Celica
Leo
Kamui

--Mid Tier--
Est
Deen
Sonia
May
Jesey
Valbo

--Low Tier--
Norma
Booey
Atlas

Start telling me how this is wrong.

Edited by Psych, 20 July 2012 - 12:53 PM.

[BamBamMan]

Atlas should be at the very bottom so that he can carry the whole tier list on his shoulders.

[Heavy Weapons Ike]

It's decent, but here's my two cents.For Alm's party, Gray needs to be on top and Cliff needs to be abit higher. Switcheroo from Clerbe with MAtilda and Silk with Alm.
As for Celica's, Switcheroo Celica with Est, and add Kamui and Jesey in high tier

[Psych]

Est isn't that good, since she joins extremely late and underleveled. Her only feature is the triangle attack. Cliff and Gray might be able to rise, but I don't want a bunch of people in Top. Warp is good enough for Silk to be top of top. Kamui and Jesey really shouldn't be that high at all. Kamui is good, but Jesey is usually redundant.

[WindMage25]

With my no grinding runs, I've always found Maisen extremely useful. I don't think he deserves to be all on the bottom. Sure, he joins late, but when he joins he can be used until endgame, that's something, isn't it? I think he deserves at least mid tier.

Also Zeke is one of the better characters in the game if you don't grind at all, I think he deserves top tier for that, at least >Clerbe please. Also Cliff and Python should be a bit higher I think. If you promote Cliff at level 3, he won't be too far behind on a promoted Grey and will very soon surpass him. Grey was only useful in earlygame and early-midgame to me.

Also Norma>Atlas, Norma can heal at least. And like Callum said, Clerbe should be way lower and Matilda higher, switching them would be more appropriate IMO.

In Celica's team, I suggest Sevr>Celica, Leo>May (Archer+promotions are best classes in game), Valbo should be higher IMO, he's pretty reliable and the only armor in Celica's team.

And Alm>Silk, but that's been said before. Alm is easily the best character on his team, he may even deserve his own tier.

[SRC]

Okay, here is my laundry list of thoughts on the placements:

Reusable warp is pretty cool but I don't know if it's gamebreaking enough for Silk to be in top (due to no seize missions, of course). If your guys are well trained they won't even take all that much damage for a while. Whatever her utility I guess she does shave some turns if that is the emphasis of the list. EDIT: Oh yeah, she can summon demon fighters too. Yeah, that should be useful too hahaha.

Clea starts off terrible but becomes incredible as a falcon knight. She's a real mixed bag.

Clerbe is actually pretty terrible. I want him to be good but he's simply has little going for him.

Zeek joins too late and levels too slow to really take advantage of his hax growth rates, so he's mostly a faster Maisen. At least you get him for a bit longer, though.

Cliff is gamebreaking later on and is really only terrible for like 10 minutes. He's one of the most useful Alm route characters imo.

I'm not sure if Force's later join time is enough for a two tier difference between him and Ruka. Force also has better growths because defense growth is so superficial for armored units.

Matilda might just be the best paladin in the game for whatever that's worth. She starts out fast with great growths and is basically a magic tank.

Robin's growths suck, but he isn't all that terrible due to promotion bonuses. He can promote to Mercenary and spam thundersword effectively just like the other two villagers.

Maisen is a pretty hilarious high move meatwall. That probably doesn't make him useful though, because you only get him for like one map.

Palla and Catria: Like Clea, pretty game breaking as Falconknights, but they aren't all that special beforehand. They totally break chapter 4 though, so a high placement might be fair.

Celica is actually pretty useless past her decent early game. Angel has its moments, but eventually Celica lags behind with her 4 move and complete lack of promotion gains. She also doesn't have any better healing utility than, say, Norma.

May is similar to Celica except she basically cannot promote at all. She's helpful early on, but later she's a worse Dyute who isn't impressive to begin with.

Leo's stats are too horrible to do anything particularly well. The steel bow is also later than in Alm's route.

Est is somewhat similar to her sisters. She can break late game at least as well as her sisters, but she doesn't help in chapter 3 at all and is even more underleveled. Angel Ring, mummies, and her amazing growths also help her get up to speed very quickly. I don't know if she should be moved up much, but she's deifnitely better than Jesse.

Valbo's bases might look bad, but he's actually quite a tank. With a leather shield, he helps a lot in getting rid of some problematic chapter 3 enemies. (The steel bow sniper and the demon fighter) His movement is too low to be much of a help for chapter 4, though.

I really like Atlas as a glass cannon mercenary, but this probably doesn't make him good hahaha.

I more or less agree with all of the placements that I did not respond to.

(Archer+promotions are best classes in game)

Sure, they have the best class, but all of the non Cliff archers have pathetic stats and have trouble utilizing them. We're talking single digit speed at endgame AND all of the bows except the holy bow weigh them down.

Edited by SRC, 18 July 2012 - 02:49 PM.

[Psych]

I do think Gray could go lower, and agree with most of the other stuff you said.

Only things I'm curious about is why Clerbe should go lower and Matilda higher. What's the though in that?

Leo also isn't as good as the archers in Alm's team, as terrain is bad in Celica, same thing with Valbo, plus he's super slow. You have desert and swamp, both of which will likely prevent Valbo from ever seeing combat. I suppose Sevr could tie with Celica.

Why is Alm better? Besides maybe bows. I just think Warp is too useful for Silk to drop.




This is at Windmage by the way.

Edited by Psych, 18 July 2012 - 02:32 PM.

[WindMage25]

Alm has perfect availability, is easier to level up and he's from beginning to end the strongest character in his team, he has 1-3 range when equipped with bows and he's one of the easiest to level up (because of some solo maps in chapter 5 and two PRF swords, he's usually the only one at max level in my whole playthrough). Silk's warp and illusion is great and I do agree she should be in top tier, but she has low movement and can't compensate that with physic or fortify, is pretty frail and can't attack decently until promotion (nosferatu's low accuracy makes it a pain to level her up before promotion).

Desert and swamp slows almost everyone down to 1 tile movement, so that may actually be an advantage to Valbo.

From what I experienced with Clerbe and Matilda is that Clerbe is pretty useful when he joins in chapter 1, he has very decent bases. Unfortunately, the remainder of chapter 1 consists of one battle. Chapter 3A is always the most difficult part for my no-grinding run, because most units are severely underleveled and it's the only part in the game that Alm is not very good to me (until he gets the regal sword, that is). By then, Clerbe's mediocre growths prevent him from being a very useful unit any longer. Usually, he's already a burden on map 3 or 4 in chapter 3A. He can't use any weapon effectively because it slows him down (except the holy lance perhaps, but more units could use that one).

But right at the most difficult part in the game, with all slow and underleveled units, Matilda shows up, the only one who can double Gargoyles with a weapon equipped, hell yeah! And she compensates good bases with good growths (for Gaiden) and she usually makes the remainder of Chapter 3A a lot easier and she stays useful till endgame IMO. She's also a great tank for magic units. Clerbe, with his 1 resistance, should be kept away from magic units all the time. She's always a great addition to Alm's team in no-grinding runs, just when some units like Clerbe or Robin start to fall behind, in Clerbe's case after about 4 or 5 battles.

[SRC]

Alm is definitely your best guy in the beginning and end but probably not in the middle. He's always rather strong and sturdy, but he's actually kind of slow before he promotes. I sometimes don't even bother leveling him since he turns out more or less the same promoted either way. Once he hits promotion, he is practically unstoppable, attacking at range, doubling constantly, gaining exp and level ups at a startling rate, and being pretty durable partly thanks to his free HP regenerating Regal Sword. Alm is awesome and all, but let's not pretend that he is breaking the entire game in half or anything.

I didn't find Silk particularly hard to level, and she could even frontline somewhat decently with a few lionhead bonuses in speed and the leather shield. Her class also gains exp at the same rate as villagers, so even though feeding her kills isn't always easy she gets lots of benefits from them. This isn't to say that her offense is all that great or anything (though magic damage+1-2 range is always nice), but she can level up at a fairly good rate. Her placement is probably more of a question of the usefulness of warp and dear, which are nice but don't quite compare with what Alm does lategame. Warping Alm onto terrain into the middle of a pile of enemies is always fun, though.

[Byte2222]

Looks alright. The only things I can think are that Claire (Clea) should come down a bit (probably down into high tier) because she's weak and fragile before promotion and flying utility isn't amazing in Gaiden (it's still pretty good though). I also think that Noma (Norma) should come down: if you promote Boey (Booey), which given his availability is feasible, he'll be better than Noma and that's saying something.

I'm for Alm>Silk, everyone has trouble in chapter 3 if you're not grinding and there's no escaping Nosferatu's accuracy (or lack thereof).

[Psych]

I'm going to leave Clerbe at the moment, cause I'm not too sure where he should go. Alm can claim top I guess.

I think Booey is fine, as you have both Celica and May who get more spells, I suppose Jenny too. Booey is stuck with Fire and Thunder till promo practically, and even then he's slow as hell.

[SRC]

I'm for Alm>Silk, everyone has trouble in chapter 3 if you're not grinding and there's no escaping Nosferatu's accuracy (or lack thereof).

Everyone having trouble in chapter 3 is kind of a sweeping statement. Just use a few characters that you like and by the end of chapter 2, you'll have a few 2nd tier characters that can mop the floor with chapter 3. I mean, Alm can hold on his own, but having a high leveled Cliff is so much of an asset. Lots of experience lets him promote back to villager and then eventually to bow knight to even compete with Alm's promotion.

I also think that Noma (Norma) should come down: if you promote Boey (Booey), which given his availability is feasible, he'll be better than Noma and that's saying something.

Leveling up Boey is kind of a waste. He just becomes a more durable Noma which isn't too useful anyway. Still, I agree Boey should move up because his early game is much better than whatever Noma can do. Seriously, chapter 4 is basically the death of 4 move characters with all that nasty terrain.

[Byte2222]

Everyone having trouble in chapter 3 is kind of a sweeping statement. Just use a few characters that you like and by the end of chapter 2, you'll have a few 2nd tier characters that can mop the floor with chapter 3. I mean, Alm can hold on his own, but having a high leveled Cliff is so much of an asset. Lots of experience lets him promote back to villager and then eventually to bow knight to even compete with Alm's promotion.

Ok, fair enough, my point was that his middle is no worse than a lot of units: Cliff will be doing better than Alm but no others really spring to mind. Also, for the purposes of a tier list nobody is going to be promoting back to villager, let alone Bow Knight.

By the way, I'm new to tiers and embarrassed myself last time I tried but with Gaiden's... lower entry requirements I'm hoping I can say something constructive at some point.

[SRC]

Ok, fair enough, my point was that his middle is no worse than a lot of units: Cliff will be doing better than Alm but no others really spring to mind. Also, for the purposes of a tier list nobody is going to be promoting back to villager, let alone Bow Knight.

By the way, I'm new to tiers and embarrassed myself last time I tried but with Gaiden's... lower entry requirements I'm hoping I can say something constructive at some point.

I got him there with minimal grinding, just revisiting the fear shrine each time he was ready for promotion. The only problem is that I forgot it happened in an easy mode playthrough. Just forget about that point.

Any 2nd tier unit promoted to either Swordfighter or Armor will be better than Alm since most characters simply have their promoted classes' base stats. Swordfighters double everything with thunderswords with similar durability to Alm while Armorknights are practically invincible and tear apart Paladins with horseslayers. However, Regal sword might narrow the gap enough so that it's not a big strike against him. All the characters have enough flaws that Alm can be the best despite having a somewhat average chapter 3.

Edited by SRC, 19 July 2012 - 06:41 PM.

[WindMage25]

I agree on Boey>Norma. Also I still think Valbo should be a bit higher, because he's your only tank unit during chapter 2/3C and you'll need a high defense unit if you're not grinding. I think he should at least be higher than Jesey, even if it's only for durability.

And maybe Catria>Palla? Catria has more balanced growths and similar base stats (except for much better luck). Palla may get some slight speed issues later on when equipped with a weapon, Catria does not have that problem.

[Byte2222]

And maybe Catria>Palla? Catria has more balanced growths and similar base stats (except for much better luck). Palla may get some slight speed issues later on when equipped with a weapon, Catria does not have that problem.

I'd support this: where Palla's better she's only marginally better and where Catria's better she's much better.

[WindMage25]

The tier list looks pretty much fine to me. Just a few other pointers:

Clea should move down to high tier, probably even below Ruka, having a very rough start is a pretty bad thing in a no-grinding run (she's usually not very good in my runs until chapter 4 or so). At least Teeta and Ruka should be above her IMO.

Zeke perhaps a bit higher? He's a prepromo tier 3 unit and beside great bases he also has great growths. His availability makes him drop a few places, but especially for a no-grinding run he's one of the most useful units.

For Celica's team I'm still for Valbo>Jesey: Jesey is practically useless for no-grinding because he comes too late with not-impressive base stats (like Atlas) and Booey>Norma: Booey can at least take a hit if you used him earlygame, that makes him a better staffbot.

[ポーラ]

Cliff is gamebreaking later on and is really only terrible for like 10 minutes. He's one of the most useful Alm route characters imo.

Palla and Catria: Like Clea, pretty game breaking as Falconknights, but they aren't all that special beforehand. They totally break chapter 4 though, so a high placement might be fair.

Est is somewhat similar to her sisters. She can break late game at least as well as her sisters, but she doesn't help in chapter 3 at all and is even more underleveled. Angel Ring, mummies, and her amazing growths also help her get up to speed very quickly. I don't know if she should be moved up much, but she's deifnitely better than Jesse.

They all make this game a joke.