383 replies to this topic

[BBM]

IMO, Ephraim is very Stu-like on the surface. Everyone refers to him as great at everything, and the Lyon bit. But he's also the only one who DOESN'T have the love of his people (in the main story anyways), and this is one of my favourite lines of FE8:

Seth:
...They’re not cheering for you. They cheer because Orson’s misrule is at an end. They cheer the possibility of a better tomorrow, not the deeds we did today. But how will the hearts of the people move tomorrow and the next day? That is for you to decide.

[Sangyul]

Er, I don't know if we're still talking about the Mary Sue test, but I just want to say one last thing on it: those tests are bogus. It's not so much the "traits" themselves that matter but the way those traits are written and portrayed. I believe the Mary Sue test I once ran my characters through had a disclaimer that "not all characters with high scores are Sues" and that the real-life singer of U2 scored a 72 or something on the test. So a high score does not mean everything, but how those traits are written.

[Kon]

The most. The main villain's motivation is to become more like him- I don't think it gets much worse than that lol.

Wut? Lyon wanted to become more like Ephraim before he even went evil because the kid's always had self confidence issues. That's hardly an argument for Ephy's Stu-ness. Personally, I think Ephraim is one of the least "perfect" of the lords story-wise. He's brash, stupid, irresponsible, extremely reckless and is scolded repeatedly even by his own subordinates for his actions.

[General Banzai]

Yeah, Ephraim's also not very Sue-like. His own man questions his sanity (Forde) and there's the aforementioned "They aren't cheering for you" line. In fact, Seth is pretty much an ass towards Ephraim all throughout the game, especially in Ephraim's route. Not to mention Ephraim follows one of the most clearly-defined character arcs in the series (most clearly-defined in a series of main characters who don't develop at all). He starts out as a romantic cavalier who desires to be a great fighter more than a great leader, and his disappearance in Grado at the beginning of the game is indicated from the very start to have been completely irresponsible (Fado: Ephraim's missing and we can expect no help from his men. Better surrender.) By the end of the game, however, he has realized the responsibility that he has to live up to and ultimately does become the King of Renais, rather than dropping it all on Eirika and becoming a mercenary. While certain characters like Duessel praise him, other characters like Father MacGregor (admittedly offscreen, but it's something) scold him as a lout and an imbecile, and of course we all know Innes's feelings towards Ephraim.

Also, about Lyon. I'm gonna pull out one of my favorite conversations in the game (this is from the flashback in the interlude between Ch 8 and 9):


Lyon:
Well, how about you, Ephraim?

Ephraim:
Me? Let's see... I guess I'll pray to become a stronger fighter.

Lyon:
That's just like you, Ephraim.

Eirika:
Just like you indeed, Brother.

Ephraim:
... I can never tell if you're complimenting me or mocking me.

Lyon:
Praising you, of course! Right, Eirika?

Eirika:
Hee hee... Yes, that's right.

Ephraim:
And you, Lyon? What will you pray for?

Lyon:
What? Me? Hm... I suppose all I really want is for all our people to be happy.

Ephraim:
...That's very, uh... That's very much like you.

Eirika:
Very much so, Lyon.

Lyon:
...Now, I'm the one who cannot tell if he's being praised or...

Ephraim:
You're being praised, as always, Lyon.

[Jimmy_Smith]

Oh thats ok! I was the one who misunderstood you! Don't worry about it, I could hardly tell you seem to at least write english pretty well so yea.

We can agree to disagree on Ike? xD I can see some sueish traits now but I don't think he is a full blown one

Yup

And IMO about Ike, maybe he has many sue traits but he also has many de-sue traits, either.

- He has to rely to other a lot just to run a mercenary group.
- He has very normal background compare to a real sue or ever other lord in the series (WTF background is a prime sue traits)
,he is not a descendant of great legendary hero, doesn't have any special ability exclusive to him, has a normal family ,live in a normal life etc.
- Somethings he is good at(fighting), he has to earn it hard way, through countless battle and countless days of training, not just a normal farmboy to battlemaster in 2 weeks.

and many many etc.

Edited by Jimmy_Smith, 02 August 2012 - 11:53 PM.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Tell that to Ike in Chapter 8 of path or radiance when he nearly got his whole company killed or when Shinon and Gatrie left, or when he nearly got Rolf and Mist killed in chapter 2 due to his and Boyd's recklessness

He failed to defeat the Black Knight twice, he was on the run from Daein for almost a year. Perfect? Ha

i suppose you could say the same stuff for micaiah.

nearly got her army ruined by Ike/failed to defeat Ike twice, having to play hit and run tactics on Begion...

and to the poster above me who i didn't see until after i posted this comment.

>he is not a descendant of great legendary hero, doesn't have any special ability exclusive to him, has a normal family ,live in a normal life etc.

so Greil wasn't anyone importent like the Amazingly powerful Swordmaster Gawain?

Edited by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai, 03 August 2012 - 12:24 AM.

[-Cynthia-]

Yup

And IMO about Ike, maybe he has many sue traits but he also has many de-sue traits, either.

- He has to rely to other a lot just to run a mercenary group.
- He has very normal background compare to a real sue or ever other lord in the series (WTF background is a prime sue traits)
,he is not a descendant of great legendary hero, doesn't have any special ability exclusive to him, has a normal family ,live in a normal life etc.
- Somethings he is good at(fighting), he has to earn it hard way, through countless battle and countless days of training, not just a normal farmboy to battlemaster in 2 weeks.

and many many etc.

Really every FE Lord heavily relies on others (they all do run an army of some sort after all), so maybe none of them are Sues? :p
(Note: not really getting into the Ephraim stuff here, I feel it's somewhat off topic as it's an entirely different game)

[bottlegnomes]

Just playing devil's advocate/answering questions here.

- He has very normal background compare to a real sue or ever other lord in the series (WTF background is a prime sue traits)

Basically one that doesn't make sense for the character's line of work or the path that he/she follows in the story. This doesn't mean you can't do it, many have, and quite well, but generally Sue's have this trait.

,he is not a descendant of great legendary hero, doesn't have any special ability exclusive to him, has a normal family ,live in a normal life etc.

Greil is essentially a legendary hero, and even has the hidden past thingy. Ike has aether all to himself, is the best swordsman in the world, and is the only one who can use Ragnell. His mother was killed by his father, who's the greatest swordsman in the world and has a former pupil obsessed with beating him, and his sister and mother are two of the few beorc not over by madness upon touching the medallion.

- Somethings he is good at(fighting), he has to earn it hard way, through countless battle and countless days of training, not just a normal farmboy to battlemaster in 2 weeks.

He still surpasses his teacher despite his teacher dying before he'd finished teaching Ike.

All that said, who really gives a fuck if a character has every trait that "defines a sue?" They could still be a perfectly fine character if done well. Odysseus, for example, scored a 36 when I did it, and I doubt anyone would call him a Sue as his flaws come back to bite him pretty hard in the ass.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Bottle gnomes said what I wanted to say alot better then I ever could've.

While sure you can share alot of sue traits and still be an excellent character, others can be sueish and still come off pretty likeable if given proper writing, two that come to my mind are Goku from DBZ and Judou from ZZ gundam.(granted these may not be the best possible examples and I am aware of that.)

[Anouleth]

In all seriousness, I do think most FE lords are about as Sue as each other, but it never really bothers me. FE isn't exactly high literature, and video games as a whole often intend for the players to insert themselves as the main character, so it's no surprise that most FE lords have Sue traits.

I don't think they are Sues: or even close. The Mary Sue "disease" is a writer having a favourite darling in the class and throwing them a ton of cool powers and abilities, always making them the hero and saving the day. I don't get that impression from either Ike or Micaiah. What bothers me is when people write "oh Ike can't be a sue because of XYZ" when Micaiah also has XYZ and gets called a Sue every five minutes.

[ClLoulD]

I don't think either Ike or Micaiah are stu's they both make reckless and rash decisions I mean when in "Solo" Micaiaih walks out into the woods alone which was stupid and is ambushed by Jared I mean C'mon that's not the smartest thing to do when you have an entire liberation army that believe in you and only you, if the Black Knight didn't show up when he did then she would have been killed straight away.

[Florina Stark]

Bottle gnomes said what I wanted to say alot better then I ever could've.

While sure you can share alot of sue traits and still be an excellent character, others can be sueish and still come off pretty likeable if given proper writing, two that come to my mind are Goku from DBZ and Judou from ZZ gundam.(granted these may not be the best possible examples and I am aware of that.)

Actually yes. There are Canon Sues that are really likable. Mostly because they tend to not be all in-yer-face. (Like Citan from Xenogears for example)

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Actually yes. There are Canon Sues that are really likable. Mostly because they tend to not be all in-yer-face. (Like Citan from Xenogears for example)

I have to agree here, Citan was a much more likeable sue then someone like Shion from Xenosaga. Then again i couldn't tell if Shion was a sue or just a terribly written character.

Can anyone tell me how mutipost is suppost to work now? Cause i want to reply to Anouleth as well.

> What bothers me is when people write "oh Ike can't be a sue because of XYZ" when Micaiah also has XYZ and gets called a Sue every five minutes.
Anyways Anouleth i understand what you mean by this and notice this far more often then it should be appearing. Either Both Ike and Micaiah are sues or they aren't.

EDIT: and now that i think about it, this doublestandard thing with Ike/Micaiah is the same one as Joshua/Makalov in my qoute, which is also by Anouleth

Edited by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai, 03 August 2012 - 05:57 PM.

[Florina Stark]

I never thought of Shion as a Sue. Just a terribly written character. Most of Xenosaga was badly written.
I might actually just pass Micaiah off as a horribly written character with Sue tendencies. (her plot wrap up stuff was just too...wtf.)

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

I never thought of Shion as a Sue. Just a terribly written character. Most of Xenosaga was badly written.
I might actually just pass Micaiah off as a horribly written character with Sue tendencies. (her plot wrap up stuff was just too...wtf.)

now that is something that makes sense and is reasonable, i can understand what you mean by this statement more then someone just saying 'she's a mary sue but ike isn't".

Speaking of, i've never heard of a non mary sue out doing a mary sue in any given series.

[bottlegnomes]

Can anyone tell me how mutipost is suppost to work now? Cause i want to reply to Anouleth as well.

Just click multiquote on each post and then click add reply like you would when not "reply"ing to anyone. The quotes will automatically show up in your text box. It also works between topics.

EDIT: and now that i think about it, this doublestandard thing with Ike/Micaiah is the same one as Joshua/Makalov in my qoute, which is also by Anouleth

And this is why I support Makalov being the shit and Josh being massively overrated. If Josh had a pink fro everyone would hate him, and if Mak looked like Renning everyone would love him.

Edited by bottlegnomes, 04 August 2012 - 12:19 AM.

[Florina Stark]

But Makalov looks like Pauly Shore! Whats not to love?!

[Rehab]

Makalov also half-looks and talks like he's either stoned or ADHD :p Joshua at least seems vaguely self-aware. Makalov owns as he is, though, ofc

Edited by Rehab, 04 August 2012 - 07:05 PM.

[HeroMystic]

To be honest, this whole thing sounds really misogynistic. Ike does a bunch of awesome shit (and, as Cynthia pointed out, pretty much easily and without fault) and is a badass who deserves the praise he gets. But when Micaiah does similar things (the similarity of part 1 RD to PoR is even referenced in RD) and even makes mistakes along the way, she's a Mary Sue. If Micaiah were male, had her dialogue edited such that it sounded more "badass," and perhaps even used a physical weapon, but otherwise has the same effect on the plot...would people have any problem with this character?

I would appreciate it if you wouldn't imply I have a natural dislike of women. My favorite characters in Fire Emblem (such as Marcia) and other franchises happen to be women, and I find female characters such as Samus far more interesting than your generic male hero.

I said Micaiah has more mary sue qualities than Ike does, not that she -is- one, and Ike being a badass has nothing to do with my defense of him. I just believe he's wrongly mislabeled as a Stu in Radiant Dawn because all of his fame is, in actuality, well-deserved due to his achievements in Path of Radiance.

Micaiah is only referenced in Path of Radiance by Sothe and has no past history to the audience otherwise. Yet, she starts out rather (in)famous in the game. What Micaiah did was similiar to Ike yes, but it was all condensed in ten chapters and lacked substance. Ike's "Hero's Journey" lasted for 30 chapters long, and we see him grow along the way. Micaiah had extremely poor growth throughout the game and roughly stayed the same outside of a few tidbits such as gaining respect for Ike. Micaiah is a character who had a pretty good basis to start off of but failed to grow. The people who like her simply like her for who she is, and she is disliked by people who dislikes her lack of growth, or just plainly dislikes the story of RD in general.

EDIT: Also, easily winning battles does not mean you're a Mary Sue. If that was the case, then damn near every hero in any game would be labeled as a Mary Sue.

Edited by HeroMystic, 07 August 2012 - 05:39 PM.

[Rapier]

Micaiah is only referenced in Path of Radiance by Sothe and has no past history to the audience otherwise. Yet, she starts out rather (in)famous in the game. What Micaiah did was similiar to Ike yes, but it was all condensed in ten chapters and lacked substance. Ike's "Hero's Journey" lasted for 30 chapters long, and we see him grow along the way. Micaiah had extremely poor growth throughout the game and roughly stayed the same outside of a few tidbits such as gaining respect for Ike. Micaiah is a character who had a pretty good basis to start off of but failed to grow. The people who like her simply like her for who she is, and she is disliked by people who dislikes her lack of growth, or just plainly dislikes the story of RD in general.

That is exactly what I think about her: Ike had a lot of time to develop his fame, but Micaiah didn't. Her story was too rushed up in order to give space for the other Parts. Imo, Part 2 could have been mixed with Part 3, and Part 1 could've had more chapters focusing on developing each member of the Dawn's Brigade personality and story.

One of the main reasons for me to believe in that is the narrative itself. It says that Pelleas' army liberated a lot of important tactical points of Daein and got larger and stronger from those victories, when we only get to participate in two of them gameplay-wise (I think).

I love Micaiah as a character, but her portraying on the game is bad.