48 replies to this topic

[BBM]

Well, as for pre-promotes being bad in other games, while other early-joining character might end up with higher stats than them, the pre-promotes don't need training, and don't need to be given EXP to be functional. Plus, while their stats are not as high, in many of the games, they're still good enough. Not ALL pre-promotes are good, but there are always ones that are. Marcus, Pent, Seth, Duessel, Titania... The list is fairly long.

[Lakmé]

Does anyone know the Double bonus given by the Dancer class ? (I can't see it in the Awakening section)

[arvilino]

Does anyone know the Double bonus given by the Dancer class ? (I can't see it in the Awakening section)

3 speed, 3 luck, same as the Lord Class.

[Walhart]

I can claim it, because it's true. Performance comparisons at equal levels don't matter when they won't be at equal levels. Pre-promoted units generally start with a substantial lead, and many of them keep it, at least for long enough to attain notable value overall.

I won't say you know nothing, but if you're making such broad and wrong generalizations, you don't know anywhere near as much as you think you do. It's a common pattern: an FE player gets a bit of knowledge and starts drawing conclusions from it, usually including that very conclusion, when in fact there's far more to consider in each individual case.

This isn't the place for this, so I won't discuss it farther here. All I'll say is, most FE fans temporarily end up with the views you're going through, then learn better by paying attention. I suggest you do the same.

I know my playing style differs from most people, and it usually consists of training the units who have the best average stats by any means necessary, and in all of the other games this is possible and results in units with higher average stats (sure there are some exceptions like Seth, but even he had some stat disadvantages to someone like Cormag). I'm not talking about value, because I recognize that I have a somewhat skewed concept of it, and I'm sure that when you consider the fact that prepromotes are stronger for the first 10 chapters they have more "value" perse, but I'd still rather train a bunch of characters who are initially weak but end up with the best possible stats when this is manageable, of course, I was even able to apply this strategy on H5 of Fe11, so I can't imagine it would be impossible here, but if you say that the game cannot be beaten on Lunatic without using mainly prepromotes I will take your word for it. But, I have no desire to sit around debating a subjective notion of "value." The only generalization I was making was that in games 6-11, characters who do not start out promoted generally have the best average stats. That's all I'm saying, do you disagree with that statement?

Well, as for pre-promotes being bad in other games, while other early-joining character might end up with higher stats than them, the pre-promotes don't need training, and don't need to be given EXP to be functional. Plus, while their stats are not as high, in many of the games, they're still good enough. Not ALL pre-promotes are good, but there are always ones that are. Marcus, Pent, Seth, Duessel, Titania... The list is fairly long.

Like I said, I acknowledge that I have a different definition of "good" than most people. But we weren't talking about something subjective as "good", we were discussing in terms of purely statistical potential. At least that's what I was talking about, I apologize if I should have been clearer and was misinterpreted.

Edited by darkkfan, 03 August 2012 - 10:17 AM.

[arvilino]

I know my playing style differs from most people, and it usually consists of training the units who have the best average stats by any means necessary, and in all of the other games this is possible and results in units with higher average stats (sure there are some exceptions like Seth, but even he had some stat disadvantages to someone like Cormag). I'm not talking about value, because I recognize that I have a somewhat skewed concept of it, and I'm sure that when you consider the fact that prepromotes are stronger for the first 10 chapters they have more "value" perse, but I'd still rather train a bunch of characters who are initially weak but end up with the best possible stats when this is manageable, of course, I was even able to apply this strategy on H5 of Fe11, so I can't imagine it would be impossible here, but if you say that the game cannot be beaten on Lunatic without using mainly prepromotes I will take your word for it. But, I have no desire to sit around debating a subjective notion of "value." The only generalization I was making was that in games 6-11, characters who do not start out promoted generally have the best average stats. That's all I'm saying, do you disagree with that statement?

Think of it as if in your FE11 H5 run and you used a team of Marth,Cain then Matthis, Vyland, Roshe, Gordin, Caeser, Rickard and Radd lets say excluding Marth and Cain the rest suddenly the best averages(by 1 point) but the same bases. In FE11 the units with the best averages are units like Abel,Cain,Barst,Shiida which are already the best units you have when you get them.

But in FE13 Lunatic the vast majority of the unpromoted units, especially the ones from the first few chapters don't have above average bases.

[Walhart]

Think of it as if in your FE11 H5 run and you used a team of Marth,Cain then Matthis, Vyland, Roshe, Gordin, Caeser, Rickard and Radd lets say excluding Marth and Cain the rest suddenly the best averages(by 1 point) but the same bases. In FE11 the units with the best averages are units like Abel,Cain,Barst,Shiida which are already the best units you have when you get them.

But in FE13 Lunatic the vast majority of the unpromoted units, especially the ones from the first few chapters don't have above average bases.

Ok, I understand, but don't they have above average growths? I'm a little bit confused about what you are saying about FE11, are you saying Vyland has good growths? Also, I'd hardly call Caeda one of the best units when you get her.

[arvilino]

Ok, I understand, but don't they have above average growths? I'm a little bit confused about what you are saying about FE11, are you saying Vyland has good growths? Also, I'd hardly call Caeda one of the best units when you get her.

The way I'm putting it is that using a team involving alot of FE13's unpromoted characters is alot like using Vyland if hypothetically he had very slightly better growths and averages than Kain or Abel, using a unit that perform very poorly for quite a while and at the end only end up a few points better than the previous lot. Or more bluntly filling your teams with Ests.

[Walhart]

Well, as for pre-promotes being bad in other games, while other early-joining character might end up with higher stats than them, the pre-promotes don't need training, and don't need to be given EXP to be functional. Plus, while their stats are not as high, in many of the games, they're still good enough. Not ALL pre-promotes are good, but there are always ones that are. Marcus, Pent, Seth, Duessel, Titania... The list is fairly long.

Thanks for your input. Like I said above, while we weren't arguing about the "bad" piece, the only thing that I was saying was that non-prepromotes did end up with higher stats in other games.

Apparently others (who I won't mention by name) claim that this is not the case.

The way I'm putting it is that using a team involving alot of FE13's unpromoted characters is alot like using Vyland if hypothetically he had very slightly better growths and averages than Kain or Abel, using a unit that perform very poorly for quite a while and at the end only end up a few points better than the previous lot. Or more bluntly filling your teams with Ests.

I understand the Est analogy, because that is often exactly what I am doing in these games: filling my team with Ests. But Est still ends up much better than other units, if not significantly better than Catria. Besides, at least in other games, using non-prepromoted units and using Ests were to completely different things. But you have clarified that the Lunatic levels of Fe13 make all non-prepromotes seem like Ests, breaking the established trend (which Othin will probably claim doesn't exist). All the same, I'm not sure that using Vyland is a good comparison, since he is quite frankly a crappy unit with regards to both bases and growths, and I was asking about units with good growths and low starting levels (especially those with good availability).

On another note, does the addition of the ability to shift prepromotes back to their non-promoted classes counterbalance the good growths and more levels gained by non-prepromoted units? It seems to me like this is the only possible way that prepromotes would have competitive endgame stats and the only way that they could be head and shoulders above all other units for the entire game.

Again, I thank you for explaining this patiently, clearly, and civilly.

Edited by darkkfan, 20 August 2012 - 08:59 AM.

[Little Al]

You're confusing the word "better" with the word "stronger" in this case. "Ending up stronger" isn't gonna mean much anyways if other units can perform their duties just fine before that one unit that "ends up stronger" joins. And once that unit that "ends up stronger" is trained up to par with the rest of the group, the pure statistical value that the unit that "ends up stronger" has in comparison to other units is typically merely marginal at best. (Cases in point: Your comparison between Catria and Est. And there's also the thing with Pent and Nino in FE7.) As such, units that "end up stronger" aren't seen as better as other units. Regardless of whether there's any prepromoted unit in your group at the time or not.

Edited by Little Al, 20 August 2012 - 08:05 PM.