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Great Knights vs Paladins


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Poll: Great Knights vs Paladins (35 member(s) have cast votes)

Which class is better for NC?

  1. Paladin (29 votes [82.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 82.86%

  2. GK (6 votes [17.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.14%

Which class is better for CC?

  1. Paladin (24 votes [68.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 68.57%

  2. GK (11 votes [31.43%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.43%

Who would be your Great Knight?

  1. Gilliam (18 votes [42.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.86%

  2. Kyle (12 votes [28.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.57%

  3. Frode (2 votes [4.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.76%

  4. Franz (2 votes [4.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.76%

  5. Amelia (1 votes [2.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.38%

  6. None of them (7 votes [16.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.67%

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#1 Nicolas

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:13 AM

Hi again!

In FE8 you can get higher amount of GK (max. 6) than any other class. When I beat this game first time(that was my first Fire Emblem game in life) I thought they is much better than Paladins, but I was wrong. For only NC, they are much worser and only who should really be in this class is Gilliam ( and maybe Kyle). Why?

  1. 6 MOV and almost worst movement type
  2. Better caps isn't very helpful in that easy game( but GK in FE7 would be almost perfect replacing Generals)

But, for CC they are better, since they will be stronger than Gerik, Cormag, Seth and many other(only Generals, Warriors and Berserks has higher STR cap), but they don't ORKO Cyclops ( to do this you need 30 STR and Devil Axe or just magic). They are good for other tank-like units, but they have only 6 movement, so you just pick another stronger unit for job like that.

Paladins in CC also isn't really good. They has the same STR like Erika and Sniper!Nemi, so not good. They movement isn't really helpful since you have Cormag, Tana, both Ranger, both Lords, Valkyries...

So finally I think:

For NC: Paladin>>>GK

For CC: GK<<Paladins

Agreed or not?


Edited by Nicolas, 23 June 2013 - 07:14 AM.


#2 Rin Nakai

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:25 AM

I don't know if the possibility of a GK promotion in FE7 would make me consider using Oswin. Would probably be very cool for draft context where many of the best options are taken.

 

Anyway, for the maingame, having 2 less move is very bad even if you account for the superior promo gains in some other stats (a whopping one point in str and speed) and access to axes for strongest 1-2 range and WT control. If we look at the caps, Paladin even do better there with the same speed cap and +2 strength... Yeah. Not like we're reaching those caps during the maingame.



#3 Levant Caprice

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:33 AM

I generally found Paladins better both in the maingame and in CC because Great Knights are essentially foot units with worse movement penalties, which defeats the purpose of being mounted.



#4 Sir Humphrey Appleby

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:10 AM

GK is probobly best left to Gilliam and Duessel.

 

Thinking about it, Franz/Forde/Amelia won't benefit from the high str/def caps and lower spd caps. 

Kyle might be able to cap str, but the normal pally cap works just fine in CC. He's probobly better as a pally imo due to higher aid and move.

 

Gilliam WANTS it for the move it gives him. Amelia would most likely suffer.



#5 ZMę

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:16 AM

I don't know if the possibility of a GK promotion in FE7 would make me consider using Oswin. Would probably be very cool for draft context where many of the best options are taken.

 

Anyway, for the maingame, having 2 less move is very bad even if you account for the superior promo gains in some other stats (a whopping one point in str and speed) and access to axes for strongest 1-2 range and WT control. If we look at the caps, Paladin even do better there with the same speed cap and +2 strength... Yeah. Not like we're reaching those caps during the maingame.

 

Oswin's still a high pick in drafts, because he laughs at everything during the earlygame. If his SPD growth (30%) cooperates with him, he's a monster. Especially when aided by Florina, or something I'd imagine he'd like GK a ton.

 

Anyway, Gilliam makes a pretty rad GK, and we all know how bro Duessel is. Franz, Amelia, and Forde would rather go pally, but Kyle could go either way. Though, he prefers pally for the better SPD and movement.



#6 Anti-Fun

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:26 AM

Paladin is > GK in Story for obvious reason

 

Also FE7 Paladin would be brokencool in FE8



#7 Sir Humphrey Appleby

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 09:29 AM

To be fair, the GK promo gains are higher.

 

But if we're just assuming any sort of efficiency, then GK would hinder anyone but Gilliam due to more terrain bonuses.

 

Not to mention the double weakness. Gilliam benefits so much from the horse that he doesn't care about the double slayer weakness. The other three aren't as fortunate and would rather have 8 move and higher spd caps imo.



#8 Pukuriripo

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 10:17 AM

While Paladin sounds cool and agile, they tend to be fragile in certain cases, and Losing a small def for A Worth amount of Def doesn't hurt at all

 

plus, not so many monsters were that fast in Sacred stones, even the Three head dogs (which would double) doesn't hurt much,,

so, Greatknight wins,,



#9 Levant Caprice

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 10:42 AM

While Paladin sounds cool and agile, they tend to be fragile in certain cases, and Losing a small def for A Worth amount of Def doesn't hurt at all

 

plus, not so many monsters were that fast in Sacred stones, even the Three head dogs (which would double) doesn't hurt much,,

so, Greatknight wins,,

What...? I never really saw Paladins as fragile...



#10 General Horace

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 10:51 AM

they have the same promo gain in defence as great knights, so unless they're capramming (unlikely) paladin's will be just as tanky as great knights



#11 Shin

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 11:05 AM

Axes really don't justify the loss of move. Gilliam appreciates not having 5 move, but the others quite enjoy their 8.



#12 Nicolas

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 11:29 AM

If you call truly something like "GK has lower speed than Paladins", you must know there is as truly as something like "Gerik has no CON to wield Axes". Both Paladins and GK( and even Generals) has max. 24 Speed (Amelia has only 25 max speed).

Also GK has:

  • 3 more STR ( important for CC)
  • 2 less SKL
  • 3 more DEF
  • 2 less MOV (God, why not 1 less?)

All other stats is the same, but GK has better promotion gains( D in Axe what is more than "enough", 2 more HP, 1 more STR, 1 more DEF.

For NC 2 more MOV win, but better stats win in CC. 

Also armorslayer/horseslayer mean nothing(dealing 0 damage) for 20/20 GK Gillian and IIRC Kyle.


Edited by Nicolas, 23 June 2013 - 11:31 AM.


#13 Levant Caprice

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 12:23 PM

If you call truly something like "GK has lower speed than Paladins", you must know there is as truly as something like "Gerik has no CON to wield Axes". Both Paladins and GK( and even Generals) has max. 24 Speed (Amelia has only 25 max speed).

Also GK has:

  • 3 more STR ( important for CC)
  • 2 less SKL
  • 3 more DEF
  • 2 less MOV (God, why not 1 less?)

All other stats is the same, but GK has better promotion gains( D in Axe what is more than "enough", 2 more HP, 1 more STR, 1 more DEF.

For NC 2 more MOV win, but better stats win in CC. 

Also armorslayer/horseslayer mean nothing(dealing 0 damage) for 20/20 GK Gillian and IIRC Kyle.

I don't see the marginally higher Str and Def caps, nor the marginally better promotion gains, to mean enough relative to the fact that GKs are essentially foot units that take worse movement penalties, not to mention the fact that Gilliam's the only one who would conceivably benefit from GK.



#14 Nicolas

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 01:20 PM

I don't see the marginally higher Str and Def caps, nor the marginally better promotion gains, to mean enough relative to the fact that GKs are essentially foot units that take worse movement penalties, not to mention the fact that Gilliam's the only one who would conceivably benefit from GK.

Promotion gains isn't very better, agreed.

+3 DEF also isn't really important since only Gillian would have full 28 point.

But +3 to STR mean the ORKO without expensive brave everything weaker than Cyclops and cyclops with attack support ( even Kyle with A&B attack support with Devil Axe can do this). Kyle is second candidate to the GK.

Also in CC you don't need Paladins as much as in NC, because you can get:

  1. Two Valkyries (L'Arachel and Natasha
  2. Two Great Lords
  3. Two Wyvern Knight with two Fili Shield
  4. Two Mage Knight (they are not good in CC, but they has 7 movement)
  5. Two Rangers

With they all 7 movement units who need 8 movement Paladins (who will be weaker in combat than they). When you look at your 6 movement units they all (without Bishop) will be weaker overall than Kyle and Gilliam as GK.



#15 Levant Caprice

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 02:24 PM

Promotion gains isn't very better, agreed.

+3 DEF also isn't really important since only Gillian would have full 28 point.

But +3 to STR mean the ORKO without expensive brave everything weaker than Cyclops and cyclops with attack support ( even Kyle with A&B attack support with Devil Axe can do this). Kyle is second candidate to the GK.

Also in CC you don't need Paladins as much as in NC, because you can get:

  1. Two Valkyries (L'Arachel and Natasha
  2. Two Great Lords
  3. Two Wyvern Knight with two Fili Shield
  4. Two Mage Knight (they are not good in CC, but they has 7 movement)
  5. Two Rangers

With they all 7 movement units who need 8 movement Paladins (who will be weaker in combat than they). When you look at your 6 movement units they all (without Bishop) will be weaker overall than Kyle and Gilliam as GK.

You're just digging yourself an even deeper hole... Why would I want a Great Knight on a team like that when they can't keep up due to only having 6 move? And axes and more strength don't make up for the movement loss relative to Paladins. And why would Kyle want to be a Great Knight anyhow when even he still gets more from being a Paladin?


Edited by Levant Fortner, 23 June 2013 - 02:30 PM.


#16 Vorena

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:46 PM

I just want to say that Oswin in FE7 is a good example of a good unit despite having the worst movement possible. There are plenty of locations in FE7 to simply give Oswin a quick plant into a location and have him sit in that general location. Not all maps are like this, but he does have many spots to be useable.

 

-The first chapter you get him is a good example.

-Merlinus's chapter for the side quest is a good spot too for tanking.

-The chapter before merlinus's side quest chapter is not too shabby either. 

-Hector's first unique chapter.  

-Chapter 14 is not necessary, but with such a large map and enemies you can give him many spots to be useful. 

-The Pirate Ship chapter is another good one due to defend chapter. He can just wall for the whole time or simply cut off some spots for your units to get to the boss.

-Dragon's Gate is slightly usable location.

-19xx is potentially good as well. 

-First encounter with Euban's Mercenaries. Another defend chapter.

-Vaida's survival chapter.

 

After this is usage sort of drops out, but you can still find some usage for him in the first couple of turns on some chapters to keep his levels up. Again, there are tons of areas for Oswin to do nothing except get moved to a spot and just tank for the whole map while you quickly wrap things up with other units. 

 

So, movement is not everything if all you need is a quick wall to get deployed in some locations. Not sure how well a wall would be useful in FE8 though. Too many chapters requiring you to move throughout the whole chapter. 


Edited by Vorena, 23 June 2013 - 07:47 PM.


#17 Refa

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 09:33 PM

Great Knights are better in 0% growths 10/10.



#18 Nicolas

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 03:34 AM

 

You're just digging yourself an even deeper hole...

My choices, my problems. 

 

And axes and more strength don't make up for the movement loss relative to Paladins.

In NC, when you have only one FIli Shield, when you don't have enough money to Barrier spam to training healers, when you only hi-move unit is paladins, yes they are better. But when you need someone to kill something annoying 25 STR is too low (excluding case when you use rare sacred or expensive brave weapons). 

 

And why would Kyle want to be a Great Knight anyhow when even he still gets more from being a Paladin?

If you only want to play NC Kyle is better as Paladin, but in CC when stats is matter and you can have a lot of hi-movement unit(which all without Ranger!Nemi is better in combat than Paladins) GK strength win. Kyle at 20/20 GK also max his cap without any stat booster (Frode an Franz need 2 energy ring to do this).

 

Why would I want a Great Knight on a team like that when they can't keep up due to only having 6 move?

For the same reason why you want Bishop/Warrior/Berserk/Sage in your team. For they battle strength.



#19 Sir Humphrey Appleby

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 03:49 AM

My choices, my problems. 

In NC, when you have only one FIli Shield, when you don't have enough money to Barrier spam to training healers, when you only hi-move unit is paladins, yes they are better. But when you need someone to kill something annoying 25 STR is too low (excluding case when you use rare sacred or expensive brave weapons). 

If you only want to play NC Kyle is better as Paladin, but in CC when stats is matter and you can have a lot of hi-movement unit(which all without Ranger!Nemi is better in combat than Paladins) GK strength win. Kyle at 20/20 GK also max his cap without any stat booster (Frode an Franz need 2 energy ring to do this).

For the same reason why you want Bishop/Warrior/Berserk/Sage in your team. For they battle strength.

Conventional weapons work just fine. Silver/Killer work for all but the odd rare thing you fail to ORKO ingame. Caellach/Valter/Orson come to mind, but that's it.  Brave Weapons are buyable if we're talking CC. And money shouldn't be an issue with the silver card+items we can sell+drops we don't need

 

Stats don't really matter for CC LTC. Go look for some CC drafts.



#20 CT075

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 04:23 AM

if there's something 25 STR fails to ORKO (rare...) there isn't really a reason not to just pull out something stronger and then trade it away




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