FE6 Localization Patch v1.2.1 - Full localization with new features, including Support Conversation reader

[gringe]

Thanks for the thorough comments, A2ZOMG. Maybe I should focus more on improving Archers/Snipers rather than nerfing the Nomads. Is Bors too powerful I wonder? I'll give the Knights another look in any case.

[Klokinator]

Personally, I think Knights should have 5 movement and simply not gain any additional movement when they promote. 4 movement is just useless.

[A2ZOMG]

Thanks for the thorough comments, A2ZOMG. Maybe I should focus more on improving Archers/Snipers rather than nerfing the Nomads. Is Bors too powerful I wonder? I'll give the Knights another look in any case.

I think Bors's base stats are perfectly fine and his base 13 defense at level 4 is good enough to bring consistency to the earlygame, but arguably his Def growth is overkill. His original 35% Defense growth rate I think is balanced on him and averages about 29.25 Def at 20/20.

Anyhow, the real issue that I'm bringing up is Barth is sorta pointless, outside of Bors getting majorly RNG screwed. Barth's big niche is his defense, but Bors gets so much Def anyway that he's not really losing out by much once they both easily reach caps, and more importantly Bors is more likely to reach critical speed thresholds that prevent him from being doubled by things like Armorslayer Mercs (there's a few in chapter 8).

Another thing to consider is by the time Barth joins, Bors is likely to be beating out Barth in weapon lvls by a pretty significant margin. iirc when I got to chapter 8, Bors was pretty close to A lances if I'm not mistaken. There's two things that can be considered. Either a weapon level nerf to Bors, or a weapon level buff to Barth (or both, maybe. Barth having noticeably later access to Silver Lances is a kinda non-trivial disadvantage).

The armors imo are pretty close to where they need to be, honestly. It's okay for Bors to be really strong when you still have to find a way to keep him in position of all the important stuff. If our goal is to give Barth a niche other than replacing RNG screwed Bors, looking at Defense or weapon levels is the way to go.

As for Archers vs Nomads, honestly I think the Archers are probably okay right now given their join time. Dorothy's 5% defense buff as well as her base Luck buff seems random when her original shtick in FE6 was having better offensive growths than Wolt but slightly fewer defensive stats, so it likely would make more sense to move that buff to her Speed, to improve her chances of taking advantage of the higher speed caps as a female Archer. Could give her 1 point in base defense if you want to be in line with the base buffs Wolt got. Even if the Archer class is a bit strategically weak, I'd say Wolt is actually pretty good given his join time, good base durability (20 HP and 30% defense growth = surprisingly hard to twoshot), and access to highly desirable supports + having time to reach C bows earlier than the other Bow units.

Sue out of all the Bow units is the main one that's seriously underpowered. She has Wolt's starting speed and str 6 chapters into the game but nowhere near his tankiness or strength growth. While nerfing her Skl is probably fine, she should still be a really fast unit to justify her really low Str. Probably buffing her Luck isn't out of the question either. Shin has HM bonuses on top of passable bases so he's decent though, just not super crazy anymore.

Personally, I think Knights should have 5 movement and simply not gain any additional movement when they promote. 4 movement is just useless.

imo, well-designed Knights are fair when you actually need to use other units to efficiently transport them into combat where they can own things.

Wendy obviously doesn't own things until babied, so that sucks for her in a serious run (story of every Est archetype ever). However post promotion she's the only General that can be rescue-dropped by mounts (and from that point, she's strong enough to kill most things she touches), so I think that works out.

Edited May 20, 2015 by A2ZOMG

[The Iron Rose]

Archers and snipers are completely terrible in general and even with the minor buffs you've given them they're still next to useless.

They can't counterattack on the enemy phase, which means the only way to give them any utility is to give them the ability to erase any unit on your turn. That means they need significant stat buffs - all characters who only use bows do

Otherwise there's literally no reason to take them rather than a cavalier with a javelin.

[A2ZOMG]

Archers and snipers are completely terrible in general and even with the minor buffs you've given them they're still next to useless.

They can't counterattack on the enemy phase, which means the only way to give them any utility is to give them the ability to erase any unit on your turn. That means they need significant stat buffs - all characters who only use bows do

Otherwise there's literally no reason to take them rather than a cavalier with a javelin.

Don't completely agree. Enemies in FE6 aren't a joke, and Bows are still the most cost efficient ranged weaponry. In any FE game where enemies are a serious threat, not taking a counter on the player phase is pretty important, especially when enemies actually have respectable accuracy. Tanking the enemy phase is not something you want to do as much with most characters except with like Zealot or Bors. Even Marcus runs into difficulty tanking around chapter 5.

Shin is pretty good even after nerfs thanks to HM bonuses giving him kinda ridiculous bases. Wolt joins early, isn't super frail, and has access to great supports and C bows giving him access to the Killer Bow from chapter 8. Dorothy probably wants a minor speed buff, while Sue really needs her original speed values.

Then the prepromote Snipers to my recollection are pretty decent thanks to their strong bases. Enemy flying units are also a fairly big deal in this game, and you need mages or Bows to easily take them out.

Bow users don't have to be god tier amazing from the get go when they have a niche. On the player phase they're your most efficient units from 2 range aside from mages, and all the mages except for Hugh are a lot squishier and don't want to take random hits from enemy Javelins/Handaxes. Especially for Wolt, this helps him develop supports easily when you can have Roy, Allen, or Lance attack something in 1 range, and have Wolt behind that unit in 2 range on the player phase.

EDIT: New impressions up to chapter 14

I just noticed now that FE6 generally doesn't give you very many Guiding Rings early (Chapter 16x is a bit late for an extra ring if you want to play a Mage heavy run, though I guess arguably Staves are OP given how much EXP you can get from them). Putting the Elysian Whip on the ch 13 boss was a bit awkward, especially since it's not a drop item. There isn't much incentive to use any Thieves that chapter given all the lance wielding enemies, so I skipped acquiring it. For the record, not including that one, you have access to at least three Elysian Whips, one from chapter 8, another from chapter 11A/10B, and one more from chapter 12 (and you get another from chapter 20A if you go that route). Unless you want to go crazy with all the flying units in the game, this is already pretty overkill in a normal run. I would personally recommend putting a Guiding Ring on the Chapter 12x Druid. You probably will field a thief on this chapter anyway.

Getting a support for Bors is really important. Even though he should be practically invincible upon promotion (I promoted him Chapter 12x, a more optimized run probably could get him promoted by possibly chapter 10? He only takes single digit damage from Silver Lance Paladins on chapter 13) he REALLY wants a support to improve his offense, given his hitrates are not perfect (especially when chucking Handaxes and Javelins). Wendy and Lilina are the fastest options and also provide the best bonuses. Barth is possible to work with as well. Ogier is less than ideal due to being slower and also because Ogier gets no early defensive stats from it.

Sophia is...undoubtedly the worst unit in the game, probably to nobody's surprise. Having the best growths in the game is pretty funny, but unlike Wendy's joining situation, enemies actually have decent evade by this point of the game. Wendy also can at least support Bors for a nice full offense bonus or pick off a few enemies with the Triangle Attack on her joining chapter. Wendy actually has semi-existent base stats that make her more difficult to oneround, while Sophia gets killed by anything sneezing on her when she joins, and struggles a lot to maintain hitrates above 50%.

Oh also, according to your excel document, Snipers gain 5 res on promotion? From what I've observed, this is false (it's +2 on your most recent patch).

Edited May 22, 2015 by A2ZOMG

[gringe]

Oh also, according to your excel document, Snipers gain 5 res on promotion? From what I've observed, this is false (it's +2 on your most recent patch).

It must have been a mistake on my part. I didn't change promotion gains.

Sophia is...undoubtedly the worst unit in the game, probably to nobody's surprise. Having the best growths in the game is pretty funny, but unlike Wendy's joining situation, enemies actually have decent evade by this point of the game. Wendy also can at least support Bors for a nice full offense bonus or pick off a few enemies with the Triangle Attack on her joining chapter. Wendy actually has semi-existent base stats that make her more difficult to oneround, while Sophia gets killed by anything sneezing on her when she joins, and struggles a lot to maintain hitrates above 50%.

I decided to just make her an extreme growth unit. She's still useless for a normal playthrough but put up with her crap for a while and she'll be an unkillable god queen! Okay, probably not that extreme, but she'll be near unstoppable. ...Her unusableness is a little bit extreme though, and I've felt that even in Normal mode. Maybe she could use a slight level (maybe to level 5 or so) and base stat boost, at the cost of some of her godlike growths.

All right, most of A2ZOMG's feedback seems pretty sensible to me so here's a rundown of changes to make when I can to the numbers patch.

Noah: Increase Res base and growth

Bors: Decrease Def growth a bit, MAYBE decrease weapon level

Barth: Increase weapon level

Sue (maybe Shin, too): Restore nerfed stats a bit

Dorothy: Increase Spd a little bit

Hugh: Increase weapon level

I've felt the same way about Guiding Rings, so maybe I'll follow that idea, too. Do note that items actually CAN'T be set to drop upon the defeat of an enemy in FE6.

I'm curious how Zephiel will be in Hard Mode... Keep letting me know your thoughts! I want to make this as good as I can.

[FionordeQuester]

Personally, for me, the problem with archers is that they literally cannot do anything that magic users cannot do, and they always, ALWAYS stink on Enemy Phase. The ability to counter-attack on Enemy Phase is a pretty big deal in Fire Emblem, so to not have any ability to do that...that's a pretty big deal, especially when mages fill the exact same role you do, and ARE able to counter-attack...

But, if you give archers 1-2 range, then you kind of make the different ranged classes redundant by making them too similar. So personally, what I would suggest is making all Bows have 2-3 range rather than just 2 range, and then after that, give Snipers a massive crit boost.

That way, they'd be like Aira from FE4. They may not be very good at killing multiple enemies at once, but they will be VERY good at ORKOing enemies that no one else can, you know what I mean?

Edited May 25, 2015 by FionordeQuester

[graphite_falcon]

Sorry if this has been answered previously, but is the Numbers Patch supposed to make Gonzales start at level 5 regardless of whether you choose Lalum's or Elphin's route?

Just checking if it's that or if I've done something else by accident.

[gringe]

Wow, lots of attention for the Numbers Patch recently.

No, it's supposed to make him level 11 for both routes.

[graphite_falcon]

Whoops, I actually did mean to write 11! Cool, just checking, thanks. I'm guessing his growths will still make him pretty decent anyway.

Also nice job with the translation patch, I'm really liking the extra effort you went to to localise rather than just re-translate.

[A2ZOMG]

Personally, for me, the problem with archers is that they literally cannot do anything that magic users cannot do, and they always, ALWAYS stink on Enemy Phase. The ability to counter-attack on Enemy Phase is a pretty big deal in Fire Emblem, so to not have any ability to do that...that's a pretty big deal, especially when mages fill the exact same role you do, and ARE able to counter-attack...

But, if you give archers 1-2 range, then you kind of make the different ranged classes redundant by making them too similar. So personally, what I would suggest is making all Bows have 2-3 range rather than just 2 range, and then after that, give Snipers a massive crit boost.

That way, they'd be like Aira from FE4. They may not be very good at killing multiple enemies at once, but they will be VERY good at ORKOing enemies that no one else can, you know what I mean?

The Sniper's critical bonus probably is something they should have, if it actually can be programmed back into the game.

They probably could also use easier access to Longbows, given you get only one for most of the game. But I doubt there's an easy way to implement this.

Also, I think you might be underestimating just how drastic of a change getting 2-3 range universally would be, when you consider enemy Archers. There's several chapters with narrow corridors which were probably explicitly designed around the power of 2 range. I kinda doubt you want to play around a Steel Bow archer killing your mages almost instantly from an uncounterable range.

[MCProductions]

Yeah, giving archers 2-3 range bows would make accessing chapter 8x a complete and total nightmare.

In my own hack, Binding Blade+ , a reskin/rebalenceing hack, I gave iron bows 1-2 range and other bow types 2-3 range in order to emulate FE Gaiden within the limits of 6's Nightmare modules. In order for all the gaidens to be accessable, I had to make sure EVERY bow user in several chapters had an Iron Bow just to keep the game reletivly beatable. So 2-3 range for all bows is a bad idea from a balence standpoint in this game.

[The Iron Rose]

2-3 range generally is a bad idea.

Rebalancing archers is a big topic. Giving snipers the crit boost helps, but honestly they just suffer in general from being way less useful than a cavalier with a javelin or a mage, and they tend to have shitty stats on top of it all. That needs to radically change (or other 1-2 range options need to be nerfed) in order for the atrocious drawback of not contributing in enemy phase to be surmountable.

[MCProductions]

2-3 range can work

if and only if the level design accomodates this, Binding Blade's does not so it's a bad idea.

[A2ZOMG]

Probably the most absolutely radical change I'd be okay with for this game is making the Short Bow a 1-2 range weapon. They're expensive as hell to actually purchase and only available to buy on Chapter 17B and Chapter 23. And they generally suck even with that little 10% bonus crit.

Then after giving Snipers the crit bonus and maybe give either Bartre or Shin a Long Bow in their starting inventory, there! Now Archers are balanced when they have the most accurate physical 1-2 range in the game as well as access to 2-3 range, but only in limited supply.

I think statwise aside from Sue getting unnecessarily nerfed they're pretty fine otherwise. Klein and Igrene are pretty solid when they join, and the other Archers join early and have good overall growths.

As for other character balance issues, off the top of my head, Garret's huge durability buffs are a bit nonsensical when what he probably really wants are more practical support options...or higher Skill so that his hitrates (and crit rates for that matter) are respectable. I have no idea though if it's even possible to change support growth rates, but aside from weapon levels it's probably the one other thing worth considering on a fundamental level for balancing character usability.

Bartre especially compared to someone like Garret is still pretty underpowered, and really only as a Fir support and access to Bows to barely save his niche usability (though with my suggested Bow changes, he'd be a very interesting user of the Short Bow given his really high Str). In Bartre's case, since he's a manly guy with a mustache, he should have 16 Con so that he doesn't lose AS from the Brave Axe. He probably also wants some of Garret's base durability buffs. I mean come on, Bartre joins one level higher than Garret, but Garret has 14 starting defense (15 factoring HM bonus) while Bartre only has 10? I actually watched Bartre almost get killed during his joining chapter before I recruited him.

Yeah I think more logically, these are the kind of stat spreads I would give Garret and Bartre.

Garret:

49 HP (55 HM, original value)

17 STR (21-22 HM, original value)

15 SKL (18 HM)

10 SPD (11 HM, original value)

12 LUK (14 HM, original value)

11 DEF (12 HM)

5 RES (6 HM)

13 CON (original value)

Bartre:

48 HP (original value)

22 STR (original value)

12 SKL (recent patch)

11 SPD (recent patch)

14 LUK (original value)

12 DEF

5 RES

16 CON

Echidna has generally been a great unit thanks to her good base speed, skill, and weapon levels, but since the S-ranked weapons all got heavier and since enemies also got more accurate, I think giving her 1 more Con wouldn't be an unreasonable compensatory buff. If we want to be extra funny about differentiating the Western Isles routes, changing her starting inventory could be considered, but I don't have any really serious ideas for that currently.

Anyhow I'm currently around chapter 20 Sacae. I don't know if I have any other really creative impressions at this point, so I'll just see how the final bosses turn out.

Edited May 26, 2015 by A2ZOMG

[gringe]

All right, well, I'll just say I am NOT planning on making any major changes to the Sniper class or weapons as I think this would go against the "minimalist" philosophy of the patch.

I've been playing through the game on Hard Mode recently, so I had some additional thoughts, and I also wanted to sum up the general plan as far as changes go.

[spoiler=Changes]

PLAYABLE CHARACTERS:

Wolt + Dorothy: Improve just a LITTLE BIT more, with a miscellaneous boost to stat growths or bases here and there.

Noah: Increase base Res to 5, increase Res growth to 25%

Bors: Decrease Def growth to 35%

Barth: Increase Lance weapon level to B, increase base HP to 35

Sue: Restore nerfed stats

Shin: Restore nerfed stats to a degree (not all of them), add Longbow to inventory

Hugh: Increase Anima weapon level to B

Sophia: Increase base level to 3, improve bases all around, tone down stat growths a little bit

Garret: Remove Def buffs, add a point or two to Skl, increase Res growth to 25% (Res is an unusual trait he has in the original game)

Bartre: Add a point or two to Def, increase Con by 1 (to make it the same as FE7 Bartre :P)

Ogier: Add some base points to Luck

ITEMS:

Add a Guiding Ring to steal to 12x

Remove Flaer's Elysian Whip on 13

I'm worried that Zephiel may be too hard (Jahn and Idun should still be easy with their inability to counter from a range, but with much higher stats). Let me know what you think when you get to him.

[dondon151]

here's how to balance bow users in this game:

...

you don't have to. bow users are at their best in FE6 and FE12.

i'm not sure why a hackneyed FE6 rebalance patch is in the same thread as an excellent fan localization.

[A2ZOMG]

here's how to balance bow users in this game:

...

you don't have to. bow users are at their best in FE6 and FE12.

i'm not sure why a hackneyed FE6 rebalance patch is in the same thread as an excellent fan localization.

Not entirely sure how you are using the word "best". At any rate, I would mostly agree for the most part Bow users are by design in a fairly decent spot in FE6 where the average enemy unit does a crapton of damage, which makes having good backline units more important, and of course when enemy flying units are also pretty serious business in FE6. Also the rebalance patch is totally optional, and realistically to be fair, other FEs in fact got (admittedly minor) gameplay changes when localized. This in no way is trying to claim that FE6 isn't great the way it was made, of course.

That being said, rebalancing is an interesting goal when you consider that even for normal ranked runs, FE6's balance is pretty sketchy. Off the top of my head just looking at FEs 7-9, it's evident FE6's character balance was probably experimental in several ways.

Edited May 31, 2015 by A2ZOMG

[gringe]

A lot of people, myself included, have trouble getting into FE6 due to what we perceive as limits in feasible gameplay options. These changes are another aspect of localization in a way, because players outside Japan have, for the most part, been exposed to FE7 and FE8 before playing FE6. The numbers patch is definitely made with casual play in mind, rather than LTC. I respect your opinion that this kind of patch is unnecessary and that's why it's separate from the "actual" localization patch.

As for why it's in this thread, if it weren't it would get buried pretty quickly. There are plenty of extensive overhauls of FE6 and massive hacks including sweeping changes and new classes and weapons, but there aren't any well-known hacks that just change numbers to make it consistent with later games--at least, not that I'm aware of.

[dondon151]

That being said, rebalancing is an interesting goal when you consider that even for normal ranked runs, FE6's balance is pretty sketchy. Off the top of my head just looking at FEs 7-9, it's evident FE6's character balance was probably experimental in several ways.

of course FE6's balance is pretty sketchy for "normal ranked runs" because the ranking requirements are a joke.

A lot of people, myself included, have trouble getting into FE6 due to what we perceive as limits in feasible gameplay options. These changes are another aspect of localization in a way, because players outside Japan have, for the most part, been exposed to FE7 and FE8 before playing FE6. The numbers patch is definitely made with casual play in mind, rather than LTC. I respect your opinion that this kind of patch is unnecessary and that's why it's separate from the "actual" localization patch.

that's a pretty disingenuous assumption, but that's what i get for being the face of LTC. it's frustrating when people assume that i only speak from the perspective of LTC play.

many of the characteristics that you change are what make FE6 what it is. you're advertising your patch as a "better" version of the game than the original. your numbers patch is similar to if you were to, for example, implement true hit in FE4 or implement GBA staff accuracy in FE5 or change maniac mode to easy mode in FE9 (hmmm) because players outside japan have been exposed to other games in the series before playing FE6.

As for why it's in this thread, if it weren't it would get buried pretty quickly. There are plenty of extensive overhauls of FE6 and massive hacks including sweeping changes and new classes and weapons, but there aren't any well-known hacks that just change numbers to make it consistent with later games--at least, not that I'm aware of.

why shouldn't it get buried pretty quickly? this is a thread for your translation, not for your little side hack. if i were to make my version of an FE6 numbers patch (which in all likelihood is going to be better than your version), is my patch also going to go into the OP? what if someone else (like this guy) who was terrible at the game makes his version of an FE6 numbers patch?

i'm not keen on directing players to this thread for a translation patch if it's coupled with an advertisement to play fake-FE6. if nothing else, it's at least a bit confusing that you're offering a translation patch at the top of the post and a patch that fixes parts of FE6 that players "don't like" at the bottom of the post. i certainly don't like having to explain to someone half the time that i link to this topic that one patch is vanilla FE6 and the other patch is fake-FE6.

you should make your own thread in the ROM hacking forum like the rest of us and leave here what people are actually looking for.

Edited May 31, 2015 by dondon151

[gringe]

you should make your own thread in the ROM hacking forum like the rest of us and leave here what people are actually looking for.

All right, that's fair enough.

I have to admit, though, the somewhat hostile attitude from the start didn't help convince me. It's a lot easier on the Internet to get what you want just by being clear and friendly.

Let's keep discussion of the Numbers Patch to the Numbers Patch thread now, shall we?

Edited May 31, 2015 by gringe

[dondon151]

I have to admit, though, the somewhat hostile attitude from the start didn't help convince me.

i'm sorry, i have great respect for your work on the translation patch and i was trying to convey the contrast between my opinion of the translation patch itself and the numbers patch that keeps getting more attention.

it's especially odd when this thread is linked on the main site; it kind of gives the impression that the community as a whole is supportive of the numbers patch as a way to balance FE6.

Edited May 31, 2015 by dondon151

[gringe]

No hard feelings. I didn't take the responsibility I probably should have when the topic was linked on the front page.

[Book of Ereshkigal]

So.

SSB4 leak spoilers

https://sourcegaming.wordpress.com/2015/06/13/e3-update-pre-patch-notes/

Roy's tropy description calls the sword the "Sword of Seals", but still calls the game subtitle "The Binding Blade". I don't remember how seriously you take SSB translations (I know they aren't the end-all-be-all) but just pointing this out.

Edited June 14, 2015 by L95

[gringe]

Hmmm, so the name of the sword and the title are different, and they essentially mean the same things. That's a real pain in the butt. Thanks for the info, though!

I'm not sure what to do with SSB names now... I want names and such to be as official as possible, but SSB has a muddy track record with translation consistency. I guess I'll just put it off and continue waiting for the next FE games. :P If we implement "Sword of Seals" into the game, I think it'll take a little creative rewriting in a few places to make it seem like it fits, so it'd be more than just a quick fix. Note that if we do implement "Sword of Seals," I guess "Rutoga" is in as well.

I thought the character count might be an issue, but I tested it and truncating the name like we've already done with Binding Bld seems to juuuuust fit so at least that's not an issue.

Edited June 14, 2015 by gringe