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Consensual incest


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Poll: Consensual incest (54 member(s) have cast votes)

Where would you draw the line?

  1. Grandparent-child consensual relationships (1 votes [1.85%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.85%

  2. Parent-child consensual relationships (4 votes [7.41%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.41%

  3. Sibling consensual relationships (10 votes [18.52%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 18.52%

  4. Uncle/aunt-nephew/niece consensual relationships (3 votes [5.56%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.56%

  5. Cousin consensual relationships (8 votes [14.81%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.81%

  6. Never (28 votes [51.85%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 51.85%

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#1 Chiki

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 03:37 PM

Assume all relationships here are 100% consensual and no abuse is going on.

 

And there is no chance of pregnancy due to multiple contraception methods.

 

Where would you draw the line?


Edited by Chiki, 19 August 2013 - 03:58 PM.


#2 xXHoshiHeartsXx

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 03:41 PM

uhm...do you mean for ourselves...? i mean, if you're talking about ourselves, then i would never get into a relationship like that with a relative. if you're talking about other people then...that's really none of my business.



#3 Chiki

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 03:43 PM

Let me elaborate. Where'd you draw the moral line? At what point does it become wrong to have a consensual relationship for everyone?



#4 cyron

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 03:47 PM

My opinion is that it really isnt a good idea, for genetic reasons, so i dont approve, but if other people want to do it, then its not really my business and i'm not going to stop them



#5 Chiki

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 03:48 PM

Ah, another elaboration. Assume that the couples involved are using both condoms and birth control pills so the chance of pregnancy is almost zero.



#6 Phoenix Wright

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 03:53 PM

i think a parent-child or uncle/aunt-niece/nephew would be pretty disgusting. i mean, i don't think incest is a good idea, but i find those relationships (also grandparent-grandchild fits here too) worse than a cousin-cousin relationship or something.

 

that being said, if it's all consensual, i'm not gonna stop anyone.



#7 Klokinator

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 03:54 PM

So two topics with the exact same goal posted in less than an hour? Is that really necessary?



#8 Rin Nakai

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 03:56 PM

If two folks have the same great-grandparent (or further up the line), then a union might be acceptable assuming it's a serious relationship. This sort of thing was common not too long ago and is still practiced in certain communities. Anywhere closer is really pushing it. Otherwise, a really bad idea - find a different lay or something.



#9 Chiki

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 03:57 PM

So two topics with the exact same goal posted in less than an hour? Is that really necessary?

 

Wrong. This is a serious discussion about the morality of different contexts of incest in real life. The other thread was on whether one would mind having sibling to sibling incestuous relationships in a game or not.

 

Try contributing to the discussion, please. How about voting in the poll?



#10 Miikaya

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 04:22 PM

It's squicky, but incest under the conditions specified in the OP shouldn't be made illegal IMO. Whether it's immoral is less clear; for all we know, there may be an absolute moral standard (e.g. God) that condemns incest. However, from a humanistic standpoint I don't see consensual, no-births incest as unethical.

 

it's not clear what you mean by "never:" does that mean one would never draw any sort of line since all are ethical, or does it mean that incest is never OK under any circumstances?


Edited by Redwall, 19 August 2013 - 04:35 PM.


#11 Balcerzak

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 04:35 PM

When dealing in relationships of people with sizable age differences, or where one party is naturally subordinate to another (parent/child, teacher/student, boss/employee), there can often be a troubling disparity in power, for lack of a better way to phrase it. When one person is in more of a position of authority over the other person, that can lead to some very undesirable consequences, even when unintended by the party in the position of power. Even if they never intend to leverage their power, the subordinate person may feel a sense of responsibility beyond what should actually exist, and succumb under pressure to things they ordinarily would not take part in.

That said, if things are truly consensual, there is never any moral problem between any actions, including sexual relations, between two consenting parties. Barring of course the obvious cases where force or fraud has been leveraged to obtain consent where it would not be freely given.

Edited by Balcerzak, 19 August 2013 - 04:36 PM.
typos/grammar


#12 Chiki

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 04:36 PM

 

it's not clear what you mean by "never:" does that mean one would never draw any sort of line since all are ethical, or does it mean that incest is never OK under any circumstances?

 

The bolded bit.



#13 Roxas

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 04:59 PM

I would be fine with everything up to and including consensual relationships between siblings, but anything intergenerational just rubs me the wrong way.



#14 Blademaster!

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 06:05 PM

If those involved couldn't result in someone getting pregnant I guess I could see it as something okay, but as an older sibling Incest has always seemed rather disgusting outside of a fictional setting to me.



#15 The Gluttony

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 06:05 PM

I think it's not so bad between cousins. Other than that it's fucking creepy and gross.



#16 Rehab

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 06:08 PM

When dealing in relationships of people with sizable age differences, or where one party is naturally subordinate to another (parent/child, teacher/student, boss/employee), there can often be a troubling disparity in power, for lack of a better way to phrase it. When one person is in more of a position of authority over the other person, that can lead to some very undesirable consequences, even when unintended by the party in the position of power. Even if they never intend to leverage their power, the subordinate person may feel a sense of responsibility beyond what should actually exist, and succumb under pressure to things they ordinarily would not take part in.

That said, if things are truly consensual, there is never any moral problem between any actions, including sexual relations, between two consenting parties. Barring of course the obvious cases where force or fraud has been leveraged to obtain consent where it would not be freely given.

This came up in a conversation I had with a therapist, and according to them it's even a wrinkle present for people who have as few years between them as relatively close siblings might- even if it's not intended, there can be a power dynamic there influencing the thought processes of both of them. This can make it hard to separate the "we're together because we love each other" bit that's (ideally) the case in normal, healthy consensual relationships, and the "[I/you] [am/are] obligated to please/defer to [you/me]," aspect that people tend to expect to be present in familial relationships, especially in close ones.

 

Like, I think we were talking with the assumption that the traditional dynamic is, "family elder protects/provides for younger member, and in return some deference is expected, even when the younger isn't actually relying on them any more." And I can't remember what the actual statistic the therapist cited was, but supposedly in a depressingly high share of all documented sibling incest cases, especially when one or both parties is underage, that power dynamic is openly invoked. So a great majority of (sibling) incest isn't consensual, and it might be hard/leaning towards impossible to get rid of that specter of power dynamics such that the relationship really isn't affected by them in the rest of those relationships. Especially if the siblings grew up in the same house, and especially if they're underage, I think they said.

 

But it's still kind of hard to tell if those are concerns innate to sibling relationships, or if we see them pop up because of how our cultures/societies have come to view family and siblinghood.

Tough call/situation, regarding people who really aren't doing anything intentionally coercive, and just want to have a union recognized. Not sure where I come down on it.

 

I mean personally, if a loving couple who never met before a certain point happened to somehow find out they were relatives, as was the case in at least one famous German example, kids aside, I don't think I'd really care that much about any of the above permutations. Otherwise, I guess I start to worry past cousins who happen to be of equalish age/standing.


Edited by Rehab, 19 August 2013 - 06:10 PM.


#17 nflchamp

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 06:24 PM

If it's really consensual and they're not getting pregnant then it only becomes a problem when no one is having babies anymore.



#18 Green Poet

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 06:32 PM

Oh, this reminds me of an older thread of the same line.

 

I'd have to say that I cannot endorse this, for the reason that this is still unaccepted by most religions and governments. While it is amiable that there is no abuse nor possibility of conception involved, which is close to an ideal case for a case such as this, I would disapprove because it is inherently "wrong." It's not that I am personally opposed to unorthodox relationships, and I don't mean to offend, I just feel that such widely unaccepted matter is too radical to support.



#19 Chiki

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 06:46 PM

Oh, this reminds me of an older thread of the same line.

 

I'd have to say that I cannot endorse this, for the reason that this is still unaccepted by most religions and governments. While it is amiable that there is no abuse nor possibility of conception involved, which is close to an ideal case for a case such as this, I would disapprove because it is inherently "wrong." It's not that I am personally opposed to unorthodox relationships, and I don't mean to offend, I just feel that such widely unaccepted matter is too radical to support.

 

So, just because something is unaccepted by religions and governments, that means it's immoral? Well, masturbation isn't accepted by Islam, Christianity and (I think) Judaism, so that means masturbation is wrong? Of course not.



#20 Green Poet

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 06:54 PM

 

So, just because something is unaccepted by religions and governments, that means it's immoral? Well, masturbation isn't accepted by Islam, Christianity and (I think) Judaism, so that means masturbation is wrong? Of course not.

Looks like I shouldn't have used such a blanket word. By "wrong," I don't mean definitively, objectively or provably wrong. I'd meant to cite that the general public (at least in respect to a majority of religions and the laws of countries that I'm familiar with) consider incest "wrong" for reasons nondescript.

 

Analogizing it with masturbation would necessitate that one apply the same filters of morality. Since both incest and masturbation are both physically viable and relatively safe, as far as I'm aware, one's consideration of them both come down to their own subjective ideas of morality.

So when you ask whether or not it's wrong because two religions are intolerant of it, I can only answer with my own opinion, or redirect you to your answer of "no," for I couldn't have a proper answer.


Edited by Green Poet, 19 August 2013 - 06:55 PM.





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