Best written villain?

[Book Bro]

He sees Validar and within 5 seconds decides that he's the evil guy they killed 2 years ago. It seemed kind of extremely random.

And when Avatar shows up with the "mark of evil-ness!!1!1! omg!!" Chrom is just like "I love u marry me <3", so Chrom is clearly blind. (which doesn't make Chrom evil, but the title says best written)

Actually, what bothered me about that Validar thing was that he was so obviously The Evil Guy and yet Chrom and the Avatar do nothing. And then he brings out a creepy person who looks exactly like the Avatar and mutters ominously, and still nothing. And then they act all shocked when he "betrays" them after Valm. -_-

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

Actually, what bothered me about that Validar thing was that he was so obviously The Evil Guy and yet Chrom and the Avatar do nothing. And then he brings out a creepy person who looks exactly like the Avatar and mutters ominously, and still nothing. And then they act all shocked when he "betrays" them after Valm. -_-

Expect they expected his betrayal to be a trap and they quite frankly needed the military assist against Valm and really did not have time to go de-throne a king?

[NobodiePichu]

Expect they expected his betrayal to be a trap and they quite frankly needed the military assist against Valm and really did not have time to go de-throne a king?

but they took no precautions when they practically knew he was going to betray them, and walked right into his trap with no real plan when they knew it was a trap.

[Jotari]

but they took no precautions when they practically knew he was going to betray them, and walked right into his trap with no real plan when they knew it was a trap.

And their reasoning for going there in the first place? We have four of these shiny stones. Right now no one is really trying to take over the world or anything but it'd be a real shame to have only four out of five shiny stones.

From what little we see of her, Pheros is actually somewhat well written. The Valkyrie who serves as the boss in the chapter where you can get the boots.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Jotari

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

but they took no precautions when they practically knew he was going to betray them, and walked right into his trap with no real plan when they knew it was a trap.

But they DID take precaution! They had no choice but to walk in the trap (because they need the stone), but they had an escape plan. Everything went to hell because Validar can mind control Avatar and you cannot possibly expect them to prepare for that.

[BrightBow]

I do at least agree that Chrom recognizing Validar seemed extremely random. Back then, they just walked over him and didn't gave him a second thought. I get why they didn't have a scene where he and Validar change a few words before he died, because then neither of them could at least pretend they are allies with a straight face but it's not like the characters needed to know that he was one of the assassins back then.

And for having a reason to be generally suspicious of him... well, he openly admits being a Grimleal, Robin remembers him from her dreams which we were never told she had, he associates with Aversa and has a clone from Robin running around. And you could include some stuff about reports saying that Validar does very little to actually take care of his people or something like that, which would also have the little side effect of sounding like Team Chrom actually gives a damn about the population of other countries.

Of course, Validar and Grima's behaviour is worse, seeing how Validar had absolutely no reason to reveal Grima at that time.

Insisting on revealing a clone of Robin, then acting like it's no big deal and cutting off the obvious questions before sending them on their way with a warning that "the highroads of Plegia can be quite treacherous..." ...aka, openly threatening them. I guess it was somehow vital to their plan that they come across as evil as possible. It's not like that might make our heroes overthink their decision to leave the continent and their homes unguarded or anything.

Anyway, the scene with Grima only serves as foreshadowing for the audience, which could have been done by simply giving Team Evil a scene without Robin around.

Edit:

On a positive note, their next meeting with Validar was handled surprisingly well, actually. Chrom's decision to take the Fire Emblem with him was justified quite well and they acted quite cautious and observant during the whole thing.

Then it gets ruined by Validar, as he reveals he could have gotten the Gems any time he wanted rather then just goofing around like that, as well as revealing his best cards to Chrom. Good for him that Chrom is stupid enough to follow the "sunk cost fallacy" (usually a flaw for tragic characters) and insists that Robin comes along for the final confrontation, hoping that A: Robin can make a saving throw against Validar despite already failing to do so in Lucina's timeline. B: Validar's control even allows a saving throw in the first place.

It's so irritating. It's bad enough if the villain has to do something stupid in order to be defeated. *glares at Manfroy*

But when the heroes are just going to ignore the advantage they are given, then both heroes and villains come across as morons for absolutely no reason at all.

Edited May 28, 2014 by BrightBow

[Jotari]

But they DID take precaution! They had no choice but to walk in the trap (because they need the stone), but they had an escape plan. Everything went to hell because Validar can mind control Avatar and you cannot possibly expect them to prepare for that.

And why did they need the stone again? As I said above no one was trying to take over the world or anything at that point, Grima was still safely sealed and everything's fine. It was pretty much let's go get that stone because the plot dictates we have them (and for good measure let's bring the other four stones so if the Fire Emblem gets stolen we loose all our MacGuffins).

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

-.-

Why do they need the stone?

Because they have first hand witness (Lucina) that world will go to hell unless they do something about it! LEGIONS OF UNDEAD ARE POURING INTO THE WORLD LOOTING THE PEOPLE AS WE SPEAK AND KIDS ARE COMING BACK FROM FUTURE OF NO HOPE TO WARN YOU AND YOU WONDER WHY YOU NEED THE GOD DAMN INSTAFIX TO THIS SHIT!?

Like seriously, did you even read the shit you are complaining about?

Frederick
They sent word to me, milord. They must have caught wind of my search... In any case, Validar asks that you visit him in person, that he might formally present it. Perhaps needless to say, milord, but I don't like this one bit.

Chrom
Neither do I, Frederick the Wary. Neither do I. At best, it's selfish political maneuvering at a time when the world can ill afford it. At worst, our run-in with those Risen last visit was no accident... But we will meet with him. Send word at once.

Frederick
Milord, are you...certain that's wise?

Chrom
No, but we haven't time to be certain. ...And my sister never refused a diplomatic gesture, no matter how foul smelling. If he doesn't give us the stone, he may at least reveal where it is. ...Don't worry, Frederick. I'm not walking into this blindly. We will make certain everyone is armed to the teeth.

Frederick
Then the Fire Emblem, milord—you ought at least leave it behind.

Chrom
Unless that's what Validar expects, and he comes to steal it with my best men away... No, it's safest with me, for now. We'll learn the truth of Validar's motive soon enough...

Edited May 28, 2014 by a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes

[Jotari]

-.-

Why do they need the stone?

Because they have first hand witness (Lucina) that world will go to hell unless they do something about it! LEGIONS OF UNDEAD ARE POURING INTO THE WORLD LOOTING THE PEOPLE AS WE SPEAK AND KIDS ARE COMING BACK FROM FUTURE OF NO HOPE TO WARN YOU AND YOU WONDER WHY YOU NEED THE GOD DAMN INSTAFIX TO THIS SHIT!?

Like seriously, did you even read the shit you are complaining about?

I was complaining about it yesterday but, though it is hard to tell, I was actually genuinely asking the reason today. Though I still maintain the game should have provided a more solid reasoning for going into the obvious trap, a smart idea would have been to split the Fire Emblem up from the stones, and the collecting of the stones should have had more presence in the plot aside from being something they happened to do as they were exploring Valm.

[NobodiePichu]

or just having someone try to steal the stone? there were plenty of other options then just going there with the thing the villian wanted and not taking any real precautions, and my god this game is way to poweroffreindshipshonenhohomomirightguys that it hurts me on a mental level.

okay that's an exaggeration but that is what it feels like with out any of the enjoyment.

[Czar_Yoshi]

And why did they need the stone again? As I said above no one was trying to take over the world or anything at that point, Grima was still safely sealed and everything's fine. It was pretty much let's go get that stone because the plot dictates we have them (and for good measure let's bring the other four stones so if the Fire Emblem gets stolen we loose all our MacGuffins).

Tiki

Here. Take Azure, exalted ones. With it, you possess two of the five Gemstones. Now you must seek out the others and perform the Awakening. Our world must be defended from Grima at all costs!

Chrom

But I'm confused... I thought Grima's power was sealed away.

Tiki

Yes, but ever since, there have been those who would change that. Grima's life force grows even now, and with it, the long shadows of despair.

Lucina

......

Chrom

When will he return? And where?

Tiki

I cannot know these things. But I can feel his presence... It looms, closer and closer... This task is a heavy burden, but as he of exalted blood, it must fall to you, Chrom.

They need it because Tiki said so.

Also, I'll say this again: unless it's a plot hole, the Stones aren't needed to resurrect Grima and he knows it.

[Jotari]

Tiki

Here. Take Azure, exalted ones. With it, you possess two of the five Gemstones. Now you must seek out the others and perform the Awakening. Our world must be defended from Grima at all costs!

Chrom

But I'm confused... I thought Grima's power was sealed away.

Tiki

Yes, but ever since, there have been those who would change that. Grima's life force grows even now, and with it, the long shadows of despair.

Lucina

......

Chrom

When will he return? And where?

Tiki

I cannot know these things. But I can feel his presence... It looms, closer and closer... This task is a heavy burden, but as he of exalted blood, it must fall to you, Chrom.

They need it because Tiki said so.

Also, I'll say this again: unless it's a plot hole, the Stones aren't needed to resurrect Grima and he knows it.

If the stones are unnecessary for awakening Grima then what was the point of Basilio's bait and switch? Did they think the stones were needed and then it turned out they weren't?

[Bloo]

Pheros is quite the interesting boss for me. Ex-priestess of Naga, took a pilgrimage to hear Emmeryn, and yet gave it up serve someone she believed could unite the world in peace. Her morals are good, and while her perspective of Walhart may have been slightly skewed, her lines when she fights Chrom are nice.

Also Morristan, the boss from Gerome's paralogue. One of the funniest lines in the game, along with a callousness to killing the inhabitants of the valley to prevent word from spreading.

[Logience]

Pheros is quite the interesting boss for me. Ex-priestess of Naga, took a pilgrimage to hear Emmeryn, and yet gave it up serve someone she believed could unite the world in peace. Her morals are good, and while her perspective of Walhart may have been slightly skewed, her lines when she fights Chrom are nice.

Also Morristan, the boss from Gerome's paralogue. One of the funniest lines in the game, along with a callousness to killing the inhabitants of the valley to prevent word from spreading.

Except it loses all meaning once you realize she's actually a Selena clone, thus nothing but her "they think a woman's garrison is weaker" line is original.

[Bloo]

Except it loses all meaning once you realize she's actually a Selena clone, thus nothing but her "they think a woman's garrison is weaker" line is original.

That's actually a good point, which disappoints me slightly. I didn't pick up on it because I haven't got around to finding a copy of Sacred Stones to play yet.

[Integrity]

Except it loses all meaning once you realize she's actually a Selena clone, thus nothing but her "they think a woman's garrison is weaker" line is original.

except that I already liked Selena so having another one didn't actually bother me?

[RJWalker]

I wouldn't mind cloned if they were done well. The various Camus clones are some of my favourite characters yet Mustafa is one of my most hatred characters along with A versa and Yen'fay. Apparently the only way any decent person could ever oppose the heroes is of these being blackmailed or brainwashed. It's disgusting.

[Elieson]

It's disgusting.

I've actually been curious; Is there anything about FE13 that doesn't make you physically ill?

[Jotari]

Except it loses all meaning once you realize she's actually a Selena clone, thus nothing but her "they think a woman's garrison is weaker" line is original.

There's nothing inherently wrong with archetypes. Fire Emblem does it all the time. It doesn't mean the later versions hold know meaning. With that being said in this case I don't think Pheros is a clone of Selena. Selena is a morally conflicted character who nevertheless follows the orders of the emperor she believes is wrong (in fact she could easily be considered a Camus clone. She even let's a valuable prisoner escape like he does). Pheros on the other hand is pretty much the opposite. She is someone who believes fully in what her emperor does and rationalizes acts of violence in the name of peace. Pheros seems closer to a clone of Riev than Selena as far as I can see. Really aside from there class I don't think you could have two more different characters unless there is something major I'm forgetting about one or both of them.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Jotari

[Czar_Yoshi]

If the stones are unnecessary for awakening Grima then what was the point of Basilio's bait and switch? Did they think the stones were needed and then it turned out they weren't?

It's probably a case like TTYD where the MacGuffins are needed to both unseal and seal the boss except that the boss will be unsealed without them anyway because story (except in Awakening's case, they forgot to mention that part). Or it's just a regular plot hole. Awakening doesn't really lend itself to close examination.

Basilio's trick was more likely in response to Validar and his mind control. Avatar acknowledges in Cht.23 that he didn't know he was Grima's vessel (unless he's both lying to trick Validar, hasn't told Chrom yet, and still decided that it would be a good idea to come along in Cht.21 and 23), and somewhere around Cht.21-23 they also find out that the Awakening works for Grima too. Thus, it's highly unlikely that Basilio knew exactly how Validar would try to resurrect Grima in advance.

Selena and Pheros: I'm inclined to agree with Jotari, the only thing the two have in connection are being mounted tome users with high positions in an Emperor's army, remaining civil to the lord before they fight, and having done something good in the past.

Hold on... Was it another topic, or did we just have this same exact Selena vs Pheros discussion a few pages back?

[Constable Reggie]

All the villains are pretty poorly written, but Walhart comes off as the most interesting. All the antagonists have the typical cliche reasons for opposing the protags (wants to rule the world, wants to bring darkness, wants to bring chaos, etc), but if Walhart won against Chrom, he would have also opposed Stereotypical Evil Darkness Cult #27 Grima. So the conflict between Walhart and protags is more than just "we have to stop him cause he's evil or crazy or something", but rather a clash of ideologies on the right/best way to deal with a mutually agreed problem. It's not particularly well done, but at least Walhart manages to bring something interesting to the antagonist table, unlike every other villain.

[NobodiePichu]

All the villains are pretty poorly written, but Walhart comes off as the most interesting. All the antagonists have the typical cliche reasons for opposing the protags (wants to rule the world, wants to bring darkness, wants to bring chaos, etc), but if Walhart won against Chrom, he would have also opposed Stereotypical Evil Darkness Cult #27 Grima. So the conflict between Walhart and protags is more than just "we have to stop him cause he's evil or crazy or something", but rather a clash of ideologies on the right/best way to deal with a mutually agreed problem. It's not particularly well done, but at least Walhart manages to bring something interesting to the antagonist table, unlike every other villain.

hmm true but walhart is kinda bland himself and the valm arc in general was shit so it only gets a few points in my opinion. gangral could have been fun to use as the main villain but did they take the opportunity? nooooooooo.

[Logience]

@Selena: I never said Pheros was a Camus archetype. I just said Pheros was so similar to Selena that she was probably just a ripoff for the sake of FE8 fanservice. I love the Camus archetype if it's done particularly well, and FE8's Quirky Miniboss Squad are probably the best non-final boss major antagonists of the GBA games.

@Walhart: Personally, the Valm arc was the best part of the game for me. After seeing the character descriptions for Pheros and the Chapter 15 boss, I kinda felt like every single enemy soldier was a fanatic psychopath like they were going for with the Grimleal lategame, except not brainwashed. Reminded me of FE10 and how the Daein army was convinced that Micaiah was Jesus Christ reborn, only this time Walhart ISN'T actually Jesus.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Again, how much do Selena and Pheros actually have in common besides class and rank?

[Logience]

Pheros has a backstory of being a former priest of Naga like Libra, which puts her in a sympathetic light. Also, she's in love with her ruler, uses a fire tome as her main weapon, and has blonde hair. Seems plenty like a clone of Selena, especially since they could have just thrown in another generic boss like they did for Chapters 14 and 15 to further emphasize how much Valm hates Excellus.