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ok I am also suspicious of eclipse. i think i would probably go weapons > eclipse > junko right now. i know my last few posts have been pretty waffly about junko but yeah whatever i don't have a lot of scumreads so firstly I do think it is an accurate assessment of eclipse's play to say that she's been pushing bad play over scum play. a lot of her posts on d1 especially are basically just telling people (zeus, fable, bibbon) to post more content and telling them the importance of posting content. that's not all her play but it does comprise a decent amount of it. this is all really easy content that makes it seem like she's doing a lot more than she is. other instances of her pushing people for doing something bad as opposed to scummy play are her saying she was slightly more suspicious of refa/via for following weapons's troll claim. if you remove stuff like this her content is basically only on athena and marth: her early d1 athena vote had really bad logic and never showed why there was scum intent. i remember being dissatisfied with it at the time but dropping it because i didn't think i would get more. it just doesn't make any sense. she says that there was a super large discrepancy in tone between when athena pushes people vs answering questions from other people. not only does she exaggerate the difference in tone: she never really says WHY it's suspicious, just that it is. her end of d1/start of d2 athena vote is mostly predicated on athena saying he didn't want to lynch marth and then putting him in a lynch priority. however it's quite clear that that lynch priority is specifically on who to consolidate on out of the major wagons at the time, not his reads overall. her day 1 marth vote is good but I really dislike her d2 marth vote. it just feels really weak. the second part about marth "throwing shade" at walrein sucks because walrein up to that point had not really given an excuse for flaking and has a history of flaking as scum. marth had a reason for having to go. that feels like the crux of her re-vote on him?

i know i didn't directly analyze a lot of his good posts but a lot of his good posts are really just "here are reasons for why all these people are town", with some sprinkles of athena suspicion thrown in on d1. they look good individually because the reasons behind those opinions are good, but then you put everything together and realize that that's really all his play is. i don't actually think he looks like demotivated scum so much as scum who just can't fabricate reads and is voteparking.

man you guys suck you made me think "bbm level reading skills" at myself before i went back and confirmed that i did not misread regardless if you misspoke there originally and what you meant was that you don't agree with the case anymore- i don't really think it's fair to scumread him for having a read different than yours unless you think that there's scum intent behind the vote. oh yeah @RADicate i don't think it makes much sense for you to focus on peoples cases on Junko. there isn't really anything you can do to explain his thinking. mostly just looking for content from you regarding who is scum, and reads on the leading wagons what do you think of my woopons case refa?

i think i'll put junko above kirsche in the order to lynch, because he has far fewer posts and it's easier to fake content with a smaller amount of posts, and because i agree with parts of refa's case upon rereading junko. i agree that junko's kirsche read focuses on just a small amount of kirsche's content, and I agree with refa's defence on himself. but I don't really agree with the athena bit. my understanding of junko's point is (paraphrased) "if you're still unsatisfied with a slot, how can you be okay with unvoting?" i disagree with junko on this bc I think there are times where you've just kind of reached an impasse and you don't see the point of continuing. but i don't think it's a misrep on junko's part. it's also unfair to criticize junko for not responding to refa's defence when junko never posted after refa's defence so it's not like he was ignoring it.

the tl dr got put in the spoiler for some reason: tl dr: a lot of vote parking without pushing anyone as scum. i think it's okay to go through those stretches where you're not confident about who's scum but weapons has basically never pushed anyone strongly at any point in the game. I think up to now I've been giving way too much of a pass to him because he sounds kind of like how I feel and I can sympathize with him not really being able to get a lot of scumreads. but it doesn't feel like his attempts to find scumreads are genuine because he doesn't really pressure them strongly.

ok confidence back not really ##Vote: Weapons

@Lord Gaius honestly i expect you'll update your reads as you go through the game so I at least would rather you type out all your notes and consolidate and post them at the end per person. like for example you're starting to feel concrete stuff about satsuma, but snike is about to sub in for the other half of his hydra and be supertown.

meh ##Unvote i read jb's last post with the spoilered cases and i'm not feeling him as my least townie read anymore. i still think that mack is a bad lynch but i think he makes some good points against nightmare and the weapons case is good i think. it kind of sucks that there were like 30-50 pages for all the subs to come in and read because i don't think most of them read them. so it's hard to know how much to read their posts for. i reread refa's junko case so i guess i'll reread junko again. i also forgot to reread eclipse so i'll do that too and then come up with a reads post and then i'm probably out for today. pretty demotivated to play mafia right now.

i disagree with the point that I'm picking against weaker play as opposed to scum play. i'm pretty sure that with all my cases after RVS i've been pointing out scum intent. this is particularly frustrating to me bc this is basically what I've seen the cases against zeus and satsuma and athena as being and I've been defending against those on d1/d2. @Refa i don't understand what you mean wrt me not explaining things about bartozio. when i first made that comment it was kind of a gutvibe and then I followed it up and was voting him later on in the day. i dropped bibbon because her frustration in her response to me felt genuine. i generally find that how people react to pressure is more important than what they did to garner that pressure. and like, as I made the large post after that responding to her, even as I was typing it out I was losing confidence in that read. to be perfectly honest this is also what's happening with jb's response to my read. but i don't know who else to vote. kirsche/junko/weapons and the pile of inactives/people who subbed in for them are next. junko said he didn't have time to make a lot of cases and that's why he was tunneling/parking. considering junko subbed out I think that this is believable. for me to vote junko/radicate right now would basically mean me believing that he was straight up lying about that. not that he couldn't have been scum who was also busy but I didn't have any other big problems with his play. @Zkirsche i have no idea what you mean by me being ok to lynch you through PoE being bad especially for me. i'm pretty sure i use PoE more than anyone else on SF. i guess i haven't had a single post going through every read and summarizing it. i can do that i guess. lynching a macho martyr claim this early is bad play. if they're town they'll probably get themselves killed soon. so if they don't die we'll know in a few day phases that they're scum. not down to lynch the nightmare/mack slot.

Sorry guys just got news that my grandma got rushed to the hospital so I'm not in a very mafia mood atm. I'll probably be back in the evening but quick thoughts: Don't want to lynch the marth/omega slot I'm still more confident about the JB vote than anything else. I think shinori brought up a good point wrt how it felt like he brushed aside the jailer claim. That feels similar to me as how he brushed aside fable's townmeta on her yesterday. I honestly have no other real scumreads but I guess at this point even though I'm not scumreading kirsche I'm finding everyone else less likely to be scum than him. So I'd probably vote jb > kirsche. Still not interested in the junko slot. People shouldnt just drop their reads on people who subbed out. Subbing out doesn't change alignment.

man I really wanted to find kirsche scummy so i'd have more scumreads but i can't do it. i think his junko vote has kind of become a park now on d2 but I really don't think he was tunneling on d1 and it's not just bc he switched away from me. he consistently had posts talking about other people in the game like nightmare, marth, etc. that being said his one d2 content post didn't really follow up on any of his d1 reads other than junko so I want to know what he still thinks about them. related to that, the only other suspicious thing was his athena read. the first time he talks about him near ed1 it's kind of waffly but as the day reaches its conclusion he pushes athena to be more and more suspicious until he finally switches to bartozio to consolidate, even though he never really says anything new about athena. so i'd like him to talk more about athena and why he was suspicious of him yesterday, and if he still is.

r i p so many sub requests imo mods should sub me back in after i die sorry for flaking today guys I was watching SPORTS all day, will do a kirsche reread now

if martyr and jailer both target the same person, martyr would draw the jailer to themselves and essentially be protected by the jailer while not suffering from the hook due to priority. so i think macho martyr and jailer still work together.

that's basically how I feel when I read athena's posts lol. i guess looking back at my case on JB I agree that I don't show many instances of scum intent on JB's part. but the fable stuff is genuinely really scummy and opportunistic imo and I read the rest of his posts and think "this isn't really a good post". like this post- it doesn't really benefit scum to claim when not necessary either. now scum!bibbon has to use the jailer in a way that satisfies town and the longer she survives people will think "why haven't scum killed this protective role yet". i don't really know what he's getting at in the second reason at all. just because she says that i'm town for dropping a case doesn't mean that everyone ever who doesn't drop a case has to be scum. anyways gonna take a break will be back later and reread kirsche and eclipse. i didn't like what jb really said in terms of content but his reaction under pressure and ratio of defence vs pushing cases seemed townie which is frustrating bc i dont know who else could be scum.

what are your opinions on fable now? i dislike it because it's like... you're discussing the validity of lynching one person in relation to another person you've never talked about. fair enough on the marth claim i did actually read the bibbon post but forgot to talk about it. this might be semantic but the way you opened the case made me uncomfortable. i know you obviously have no point of reference for fable's meta but it feels like rather than saying "yeah there's this reason for thinking she might be town but it's outweighed by other stuff" it's more like you said "yeah there's this reason for thinking she's town but I'm going to ignore it". reasons 1 and 2 are fine but are stuff that others pointed out. reason 3 is bad bc everyone gets frustrated when they perceive they're being pushed for shitty reasons. town moreso than scum if anything. and 4 flat out makes no sense because how is progressing from "zeus should be vigged" to "zeus should be lynched" waffling? if anything it's the opposite. and why is bibbon specifically the one looking for an easy zeus lynch over the others? i guess with your bibbon case i don't see much that I can point to and say "this has scum intent" but it just doesn't impress me as content because it's either not original or has stuff that I heavily disagree with.

same but now that attention has been drawn to it eclipse can you c/d?

every time I read a new athena case I reread his posts and I don't really agree with junko's case. i semi-agree with the timing of the satsuma vote removal being suspicious but all the stuff about athena's EoD actions is heavily overblown. there is a kind of inconsistency wrt athena originally being okay with lynching marth earlier on and then not being okay with it near phase end, but there isn't really any scum intent here unless athena and marth are buddies. however, athena does say why he doesn't like the marth wagon (although he's wrong about why the wagon exists) and his bart vote was a pretty clear not-me-over-me so detailed justification doesn't need to exist. idk it's like... athena isn't really a townread for me anymore because a bunch of the roleclaims today have shifted up towniness of other people and made it more likely he's scum through PoE. but all the cases feel like they're picking at small parts of his play which look bad rather than showing how his posts have an overarching scum motivation?

well you could also set up a connection between a scum and a town so the scum could get the townie's trust. and if one of the co-networkers is scum it's probably not the only part to their role, just the part that provides an easy and provable claim. so it's pretty null.

on SF, decoy (or reverse martyr) is used to refer to what smogon refers to as martyr. please use our GOOD and CORRECT rolenames walrein mack, co-networkers are two players who each pick a target. those two targets then get a quicktopic with each other. athena claimed to be one of the co-networkers near the end of D1. not sure if he was the one who targeted refa or the other co-networker did.

on SF, martyr means that actions aimed at the martyr's target get redirected to the martyr. I think you're using the BAD and WRONG martyr definition from smogon, where the martyr's target's actions get redirected to the martyr

no that just means someone tried targeting refa with the co-networker and got nightmare/mack instead

to use ISOs, you can also use the script in this post i would actually recommend not just ISOing people if you're subbing in though. you'll miss a lot of context and stuff and subbing in lets you look at the game with fresh eyes that people in the game miss @walrein- what, I'm pretty sure refa did not claim co-neighbourizer. athena did.

i think that while it's true that both town and mafia can have bad logic, I think it's going a step too far to say that town are MORE likely to have bad logic. scum can also have bad logic because they have to force reads and make up reasoning and sometimes they cant achieve that while maintaining good/consistent logic.

anyways I reread walrein. tbh he didn't actually have many suspicions beyond athena and then marth. the former was a kind of RVSy reason that he parked on for a bit too long and the latter was a pretty shallow one-liner. but when he was active he just felt more comfortable then he did as scum in cuphead? like there was a post where he was joking about how he was planning on using his reputation as a flaker to slack in this game, and i dont think he would have wanted to draw attention to that as scum. come back @Walrein :( just bc you realized rein's not playing doesn't mean you have to take his flaker mantle fwiw I also assumed weapons was trolling in my reread but I can see why via might not have. refa's sheeping of sully confused me more than his sheeping of weapons though. regardless what's the scum intent there on via/refa's part eclipse? if that action of weapons is null bc the odds of a turbolynch were so low, shouldn't the same logic be applied to the people who sheeped him? especially since town weapons would presumably say he was trolling before the lynch happened?

on a more serious note, I agree with via that shinori is a good scum player because he's very confident and can take advantage of uncertainty among townies in a game. i'm not suspicious of him in this game though. are there any specific posts or actions by him that are making you paranoid, or is it just a general vibe? this post confuses me. are you admitting that what you did was scummy?