Cyas

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  1. I asked VincentASM a while ago and according to his test runs (the results of which were also roughly in line with mine), the chance is (21-Lck)%. Dreadfighters halve that chance. Criticals also cannot backfire.
  2. I don't know what these Korean bots were supposed to accomplish but kudos to the Moderators for cleaning it all up so quickly and generally keeping the Forum in a good shape.
  3. Sorry for the late reply, I was busy. I agree that they aren’t good here but you can enter the Arcanists range without entering the Archers range. I’ve done that in this and my last playthrough. All true. As I said, Catria is better here. I was mostly trying to convey that Palla isn’t actually bad here, which Bowbow was strongly implying. While that’s true, all Arcanists bar one are accompanied by Snipers and the combination of Mire+Iron Bow kills both. If Palla procs either HP or Def once, she can survive them. If Catria procs HP twice/HP once and Def once/Def twice, she survives them as well (that is, for the Iron Bow Snipers). If the Witches don’t warp, they’re also in range of the Snipers and Catria and Palla are both killed by 2xWitches and 1xSniper. Catria is 4HKO’d and Palla 5HKO’d by Bonewalkers, which isn’t really a significant difference but at least they also appear in areas where Snipers don’t mess with Palla and Catria. I don’t think that either Palla or Catria has a noteworthy advantage over the other on this map. I can see why Catria would be more durable on paper but in practice they both die extremely fast here and their offensive parameters are both kind of mediocre. This map doesn’t change much in the grand scheme of things. I think you misunderstand the situation: Palla doesn’t 2RKO by doubling with 4HKO attacks, she kills them by 2HKOing them and not doubling. A 12/1 Palla with an unforged Steel Lance perfectly 2HKOs Gargoyles. A Steel Lance has Weight regardless of the forge level, by the way. It has already been mentioned but that’s not how the promotion works. The reason as to why I was arguing Palla>Catria was because Palla joins with a 300 EXP lead and thus needs less resources to get to Level 12 in time for the beginning of Act 4. By the way, I think Kaga wanted Res to be an inborn trait so that might be why nobody gains Res on promotion. I heard the Kaga thing from another user and don't know how reliable that was, though. That is definitely an inflated guess. Catria already struggles to reach 12/1 by Mila Temple. She won’t be 12/7 by Dolth Keep. There are only two maps and there is absolutely no way she can get 3 Levels in each. Dead Man’s Mire has so many Magic users overlapped with Snipers that Catria will only gain very little EXP. The following map is easier, but also way shorter. I would already question 12/3 but 12/7 is not happening. 12/11 is also extremely inflated. If we’re generous, we could say that Catria is 12/4 after Dolth. We’re doing minimal encounters so 0EXP in The Lost Treescape and the next battle is already Duma’s Gate where she’d have to gain 700 EXP to be Level 11 for the Swamps. 12/7 or 12/8 for Duma’s Gate also seems unreasonable since she needs to be at that Level after Dolth. Can you tell me when Catria gains how much EXP and how she goes about doing that? That is, for Act 4. I think that making these Level-up thresholds reasonable would validate your argument but I don’t see how Catria gains so much EXP in a run with minimal random encounters. Levelling fast does not mitigate having 300 less EXP. Even if Catria gained 100 EXP every time she leveled up at Level 5, 6 or 7, she would still need 3 more kills than Palla. Catria does not outperform Palla in Act 3 in any significant way outside of Southern Desert, where Palla is also good and can work towards promotion as well. They are the same on Mountain Graveyard, effectively the same in Wolff’s Fort, Catria beats Palla in the Southern Desert, they are about equal in Grieth’s Citadel, they are both overshadowed in the Valley and Palla can already be promoted by Mila's Temple. If “Minimal random encounters” does not actually include dungeon enemies, she can promote before Mila’s Temple but if we can't train in dungeons, she will have a hard time. Can you map out where Catria gets how much EXP and in what way she attains it? My guess: Catria only gains 30-40 EXP on Mountain Graveyard because EXP gain from these Terrors is terrible. She can perhaps gain 70 EXP in Wolff’s Fort after baiting Arcanists and killing one of them+Participation EXP. She might gain 150 Exp in the Southern Desert but it really depends on how much EXP Witches give, which I can’t remember. It could also just be a 100 EXP or something along those lines. That are 200-260 EXP before Grieth’s Citadel and I don’t suppose that she gains another 440 within the next two maps when she’s killed so easily in Grieth’s Citadel and largely unneeded in the Valley Approach. Their performance against Dreads is identical because Catria most likely won’t gain enough EXP to avoid being doubled. VS. Bosses needs to be evaluated: Both get 2HKO’d and can double Garcia. Their performance against the Necrodragons is nearly identical. Dolth 2HKOs both and is doubled by both (you forgot to consider Death's 9 Weight in your Catria Spd estimates). Jamil 2HKOs both and is doubled by both. Jedah 2HKOs both and is doubled by both. As for combat VS. Mages: Dead Man’s Mire: 12/1 Catria is 3HKOd by weaker Arcanists and 3HKOd by the stronger ones. Palla is 3HKOd by weaker ones and 2HKOd by stronger ones. Though, this comparison doesn’t say much considering that Snipers cover the range of Arcanists and 1 Sniper+any combination of 2 Arcanists kills both. Neither Catria nor Palla will be able to fight at the southern part of the map. The Dread Fighters will probably just solo it while the Whitewings approach the boss area and kill Gargoyles on the way. Catria fares slightly better against the Cantor standing next to the boss since she survives one more battle, though. The Necrodragon battle has no Magic users. Dolth Keep: Weak Arcanists 3HKO Palla and strong ones 2HKO her if she does not gain +HP after promotion. Weak Arcanists 4HKO Catria and strong ones 3HKO. Some of the Snipers are also wielding Iron Bows so Catria can survive combinations like Iron!Bow Sniper+2 weak Arcanists which Palla can’t. Catria’s durability is better here. Duma’s Gate: Thunder!Witches 5HKO Catria, Death!Arcanists 2HKO her, Palla is 3 or 4HKOd depending on HP by Witches but probably 3HKOd and 2HKO’d by Death Arcanists. Catria’s durability is better here as well. Duma Swamps: Both 2HKOd by Jedah. Overall, yes, Catria has better durability against magical units in Act 4. It probably doesn’t matter much in Dead Man’s Mire considering that neither of them are going to fight the bottom group but it helps in Dolth Keep and Duma’s Gate. Now, to summarize my opinion on this: Catria’s Spd lead seems to be irrelevant. She benefits from higher Res on a few maps but needs more investment to promote than Palla. The question of Palla>Catria or Catria>Palla mostly seems to come down to how much we value extra durability as a result of higher Res in some maps VS extra EXP for an easier promotion. In a run where dungeons are allowed, I could agree with Catria>Palla but in this case we don’t have any, or rather minimal, random encounters which I presume means no dungeon enemies and as few overworld spawns as possible. Knowing whether or not we're playing for turns would also help because Palla in an LTC is probably preferable since EXP allocation is more restricted by low turns. In a casual playthrough with unlimited EXP, Catria is probably better. Also, I’m not sure whether or not Palla’s Str lead actually matters much. You can send over a +3 Blessed Lance from Alm’s side and Catria would only need to proc Str once to ORKO Dolth’s Necrodragons as a Falcon Knight. There are probably more benchmarks but I’ve already calculated enough matchups for one post. In the end, I don’t really care if we end up with Catria>Palla or Palla>Catria. It really depends on the assumed playstyle. I was just arguing with Bowbow since they stated Catria>>Palla, which I can’t agree with no matter the playstyle. This thread is kinda dead so we might discuss this in PM if nobody else has anything to say about this.
  4. I don't think that we should take recruitment cost into consideration. A Tier list is just supposed to show how good the units are under certain conditions (no-grind, LTC etc.). Which character should be recruited and which not is already reflected by their placement in the tier list. Punishing her for not getting Deen will just falsify the tier list and put her below someone like Soldier!Atlas, who is worse in practice. I understand the opportunity cost argument, but I don't think that it's suited for a tier list because those are only meant to show how good/bad certain units are. You mentioned what makes a unit bad/good and established some rules, which is all good but the information I'm looking for is: Do we care about turn counts; yes or no? Agreed, their performance is nearly identical. They are both equally bad vs Archers and Mercenaries. However, you are overplaying Catria's Res stat and the importance of it. Firstly, Palla is 4HKO'd by the Arcanists and Catria will be 5HKO'd, both could be considered to be relatively tanky against the Arcanists with Catria having a small defensive lead and Palla having an extremely minor offensive lead. Secondly, there are only 2 Arcanists on this map. If this map mostly consisted out of magic users, this argument would be more relevant but as it stands, Catria is slightly better than Palla against 2 enemies and that's really not saying much. Palla can deal with these Arcanists well without Catria and replicate her performance with minimal issues, by the way: Turn 1, put her in range of both with a Javelin. She weakens both on EP. Turn 2, chip one Arcanist with Leon, finish him off with Palla. She fights the last one on EP and finishes him off with a Javelin on Player Phase. While it is true that Catria has a slight edge against the Arcanists, the fact stands that Palla can deal with them just as easily. They are about the same on this map. They are both terrible on Deen's map, I agree. We probably don't have to assume that we are playing that map since Deen is better anyway. Catria>Palla on Sonya's map. As I said, on a map full of mages, Catria is clearly better. Nonetheless, you're underselling Palla again. Palla is 3HKO'd by Fire Witches, Catria is 4HKO'd by Fire Witches. Both are 3HKO'd by Thunder Mages. If Catria is, say, your best unit on this map because of flight and good combat against mages, then Palla is your second best unit for having the same qualities and only slightly less durability against one enemy type. In any case, Palla's performance is definitely not poor as you said in your last post. Valbar getting ORKO'd by Witches, having little movement and no offense is poor. Or Boey getting knocked down to 25% HP and dealing 1 damage in return. Palla is good on this map. Snipers and Myrmidons are bad for both. The argument with regards to Mercenaries doesn't matter for three reasons: 1) It is RNG reliant. 2)Even if she's not being doubled, her combat against them is terrible. Neither Catria nor Palla have any business fighting them, that should be left to Saber and Kamui. 3) There are only 2 Mercenaries on the entire map. Catria fares better against Mages but it still mostly comes down to a 1 Hit difference. There are 3 Witches and 4 Arcanists. There are 2 Brigands and at least 8, but probably +10 Bonewalkers. This map is as good for Palla as it is for Catria. Vrai destroys both. The Myrmidon messes Catria up as much as he messes Palla up. The Mercenaries have 15 AS and the lightest Lance on Celica’s side at this point still has a -1 Speed penalty. Catria needs 17 AS to double which she reaches at Level 14 on average. It is safe to assume that Catria’s combat VS Vrai, Myrmidons and Mercenaries is just as terrible as Palla’s. Her combat VS Mages is, as usual, slightly but not meaningfully better. Catria can take one more hit. I know I’ve said it a few times but you’re putting too much emphasis on Catria’s Res lead. Palla can actually have the same durability against the magic enemies here depending on how often she procs HP (31 HP means that her durability is comparable to Catria’s), that only goes to show that Catria’s lead isn’t as big as you make it out to be and Palla can fight these guys too without dying. But anyway, I don’t think that this paragraph was even needed: Neither of the Whitewings are particularly important for Valley Approach. Wolff’s Fort, Northern and Southern Desert and Grieth’s Citadel all have annoying terrain and the Whitewings could reach enemies far more easily than other units. On this map, Myrmidons reach the bulk of the enemy force at the same time as the Whitewings. Saber/Kamui/Deen all have better combat parameters so there’s no reason for Catria or Palla to engage with the enemy group there. They might kill an enemy far away from the group but I don’t think that any of the two will contribute much or gain much EXP here. This is where our experience with the game diverts: Palla was promoted at this point in the game in both of my runs and it’s not too hard to do because Palla has a high base Level. Promoted Palla 2RKOs Gargoyles just like Catria does if she actually gains the necessary 16 AS, a +2 Steel Lance and +2 Strength. Promoted Palla has better durability even if she’s getting doubled and Catria is not. Palla is far better against Gargoyles if we raise her. Catria can’t tank a Sniper+Mire!Arcanist at full HP. Neither Palla nor Catria can contribute a lot until most of the enemies have been cleared out since there are many overlapping enemy ranges and all non-Gargoyles hit really hard. What I'm saying is that Catria's Res lead is irrelevant since they both get killed very easily. This is another map where the Whitewings aren’t as great as they could be. The Dreadfighters will most likely do the heavy lifting and the Whitewings will just pick up the scraps. From my viewpoint, Palla’s performance is identical with Catria’s outside of Southern Desert where the latter is better. They are identical on the Graveyard, I’ve already shown that Palla can easily substitute Catria’s role in Wolff’s Fort, Catria’s better in the Southern Desert, they break even in Grieth’s Citadel due to the amount of physical units Palla can fight, they are both mostly irrelevant in Valley’s Approach or are just on clean-up duty and Palla can be promoted by Mila’s temple. Now my line of thinking may strike you as odd since I’m arguing Palla>Catria but I’m just saying that Catria is better in one map and that they perform equally in the rest. Why do I think that Palla is better? She has a higher base Level, that’s all. You need fewer resources and don’t have to put as much effort into her to get to Falcon Knight. They’re both just meant to slay Terrors and Palla does it with fewer resources so that’s why I believe that she is better. Catria being better in one map doesn’t change that when she needs 300 extra EXP. Perhaps one can argue Catria>Palla because Catria can potentially double Gargoyles as a Falcon Knight in Act 4 but I have yet to crunch the numbers and I still think that Palla could be better overall. So yeah, Palla>Catria for me on basis of their similar performance and Palla’s Level lead but I’m open for discussion. He was Level 9 in my run so 8 is probably a good estimate. Deen is hardly much better. He might start doubling Dread Fighters one chapter earlier until Saber gains 2 more Level-ups but that’s about their performance gap. Their growths also hardly leave any room for stat differences. Even if Deen’s combat is great, he’s 5 Levels off of promotion and without random encounters there are few battles left. He has a bit of a harder time getting to promotion than Saber but that’s not why I’m arguing Saber>Deen. Saber killing enemies for 13 Chapters and being a huge asset for the team while Deen does not exist should be weighed more heavily than Deen having +1 Spd once he’s recruited.
  5. I don't believe that I can say much until I know what playstyle this tier list assumes. Are we playing at a leisurely pace? Are we playing efficiently and aiming for a Blitzkrieg medal? Are we doing a full blown LTC? We can't judge the value of a unit if we don't know what exactly they are supposed to accomplish. There seem to be some proposed changes to this list, most notably Genny moving up but also Pegs>Dreads and even Mages>Dreads but I don't think that we can 100% agree upon any of these changes until we know the assumed playstyle of this tier list. Some points I'd still like to talk about: Mage!Atlas needs to be lower. We assume minimal backtracking but promoting Atlas in a timely manner actually requires major backtracking (14 days + dungeon) as the last shrine is the Seabound Shrine. Mage!Atlas needs to gain 14 Level-ups before he can utilize Rescue and his combat as well as his move are underwhelming. I also question Sonya's position since her combat is actually good. Valbar and Boey never kill anything and are never or very rarely needed. Atlas in some classes (I'm thinking of Soldier or Mage) could also be below her. This argument lacks substance. You say that Palla is overrated, that she performs poorly and that Catria is far better but why is that the case? Please give us a reasoning otherwise these statements don't have any weight behind them. Are you assuming that Catria promotes in time for Act 4 but Palla doesn't? If so, that seems quite unreasonable. Palla has a 3 Level head start. If anything, Palla promotes but Catria might not. I also can't agree with Deen>Saber. Saber can very easily be higher levelled than Deen and will have relatively comparable bases. He can reach Dread Fighter easier in time for Act 4. However, that's not the main reason as to why I argue Saber>Deen. After promotion, they fulfill the same role and are interchangeable. The only difference is that Saber can contribute for 1.5 Acts longer due to better availability. Thus, he should be considered to be the better unit.
  6. Isn't Mikhail supposed to drop a Gold Mark? I just did his map and have 0 Gold Marks. Upon reloading an old save, I realized that he doesn't even carry it: I'm playing the european version on Hard/Classic, if that is in any way relevant. Edit: Soft resetting as well as exiting and re-entering the battle does not resolve this issue.
  7. Echoes PMU

    Dread Fighter Saber with the Shadow Sword.
  8. Help Final Boss

    A decently strong Alm can oneshot Mogalls with the Falchion so he can lead the charge against Jedah. The Bow Knights can be baited by your Bow Knights and you can probably take them out with Killer Bows and Magic. Attack Jedah with Dread Fighters/Bow Knights and anybody who doubles and has a good crit chance can try to ORKO him. In my case Alm with Double Lion and Celica in range had roughly a 70% chance to kill him in one round. The Witch on the right hand side can be baited out and killed with Bows. You can warp a Dread Fighter to kill the Witch on the left hand side and you can chip Gharn with Mage ring!Celica/Delthea using Ragnarok (you can't attack more than once when facing Medusa; unless you dodge the attack) and then finish off by warping in Alm and using Double Lion. Then it's just a matter of weakening Duma with people who can survive his attacks. Tatiana's Fortify is very useful to counteract Upheaval so I hope you've been training her. Invoke takes a lot of pressure off of your team but it also takes up a lot of space. A unit with really high Def and the Silver Shield can hold off the 2 Dread Fighters and the Gold Knight at the beginning or you just take 2 turns to kill them and then go to the middle.
  9. Ah, I see. That would be more in line with past recoil formulas as well. I'll take a wild guess and say that the game checks if the attacks recoils before it checks if the attack crits. If crits were able to cancel out recoil and not the other way around, Skl would decrease the backfire chance but recoils in past games and especially in Gaiden were always purely luck based.
  10. Do we know the exact formula for the Shadow Sword recoil chance? I couldn't find it anywhere so I ran a few trials and it seems to be somehwere along the lines of 25-Lck% (after Lck reduction) and (25-Lck)/2% for Dread Fighters but I'd appreciate a confirmation. Curiously, crits never backfired during my 600 attempts which leaves me wondering if crits with a Shadow Sword can even backfire. Of course it could just be chalked up to RNG as well.
  11. Best pre-legendary weapons?

    IIRC, Rhomphaia can only be attained by forging the Ridersbane and losing the passive Cavalry effectiveness is a bad trade-off. The list should definitely include forged Ridersbane for Alms side. Perhaps also forged Rapier, though that's not a necessity. Grimoire+Speed ring aren't too bad either if you run out of Mage Rings.
  12. You could use it to marginally boost Warp/Physic range. Though, that is not very useful outside of LTC/efficiency runs. Other than that, it's probably best to trade it. Don't take my word for it since I have yet to play the game. The SF side also calls the spice "Exotic Spice".
  13. Rare Weapons and Stat Boosters- Use or Hoard?

    The earlier you use a stat booster, the longer it is in effect. Hence why I hand them out early unless the best recipient happens to join later. FE games usually give you more weapon durability on legendaries than actually needed so I tend to use them quite deliberately as well. E.g.: In my last playthrough, I used Siegmund whenever something wouldn't be a ORKO (or XRKO in the case of Endgame Lyon and Fomortiis) otherwise and still had 17 uses left at the end. A little planning also helps and makes it possible to determine how often and when you can use a weapon without it breaking too early.
  14. Yes, one item for each character. Weapons have varying amounts of Arts. E.g.: The Darkness and Blessed Sword have none (though, they do have passives) but the Regal Sword has 3.
  15. From what I've heard from other players, witches only attack units at the edges of your formations. Keep low Res units in the middle of your formation and you'll be fine. Mila's Turnwheel also goes a long way in mitigating RNG mishaps.