Dean

Not much love for Amber in here. With promotion, his base stats are good enough to ORKO generics and bosses straight after his join, and high strength + ability to inherit Sigurd skills lets him fill a niche for... basically the whole game. Amber, Citrinne and Chloé are usually my recommendations for the first three Master Seal, with Alear getting the chapter 10 one.

Yeah it's kind of like, can he do it: yes; do you have to do it: no; should you do it: up to the player (but my personal preference is yes). Like he's hardly the MVP of these chapters or doing anything particularly unique or unreplaceable, but he is finding a way to contribute without sacrificing turncount or reliability and setting himself up for later in the game pretty well. For the list as a whole, from an efficiency standpoint, I think I'd echo what's been said in this thread previously. Amber, Citrinne and Vander all a bit low (Vander in particular), with Fogado, Veyle, Goldmary and Lapis standing out as the ones I think are a bit high.

On the surface I think this is a fair enough opinion, but we do have ways to feed Kagetsu kills pretty quickly in C12 and C13 and he makes pretty good use of the exp to slaughter the rest of the game. This playthrough is a pretty good demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zyWslFpDNA&list=PLarkWv8c6mgn8AEosaTvDq3B5lqGUJ9hE&index=14

Uhh yeah didn’t this thread used to have 100+ pages?

Hm. Are polls the best way to decide things? Most of the tier lists we've hosted on SF in the past have usually had the TC update the list in the OP responding to discussion in the thread. In practice, I've been very lazy with the thread (I got caught up in a game of forum mafia, sorry). If users think there are pressing issues with the list in the OP I'm happy to act on them. Although I'm still thinking that the overall structure might need an overhaul; I think S would look best if it was less populated (leaving Camilla, Azura and maybe Corrin) and units in other tiers would be pushed down through the flow-on effect. I wish there was more footage / detailed playlogs of this game available.

Gave Mozu a try. Was hoping to give Benny and Keaton a try as well if I ever get up to C13/C14 to give a proper response to earlier posts in the thread; I can theorise that they're bad fine but I don't think I've actually tried to use them on Lunatic more than once. The ignore list might help improve your enjoyment of the forum.

Are you in the Discord? A lot of active posters in there so it may be easier to sway opinions. Or not; I know people can be stubborn with opinions. I know I am. Haven’t posted in a while as I was hoping to have a quick play through to get some practical experience with some of the more contentious units. Unfortunately I’ve been a little busy and haven’t found much time to play. So I’ll just post the finished Reddit list. S: Corrin, Jakob 1, Azura, Camilla, Xander A: Niles, Kaze, Leo B: Felicia 1, Silas, Elise, Effie, Beruka, Gunter C: Arthur, Nyx, Selena, Peri, Keaton, Shura, Flora D: Odin, Laslow, Benny, Charlotte, Felicia 2, Jakob 2, Izana E: Mozu

Keaton's on track for C rank as well which is a big ??? from me. I think what you do with S tier kind of sets up the rest of the tier list. We could keep it fairly exclusive, e.g. Camilla and Azura are the two best units in the game; or we can keep the tiers roughly the same size (add in Corrin, Jakob and Niles like the current list); or I've seen arguments in various places to include more units such as Xander, Leo and even Kaze which seems kind of disgusting to me but who am I to judge? I was guilty of the Selena to B faction but Effie getting into B kind of opens the floodgates.

The disagreements we might be having seem to be a difference in tiering philosophy. The list being created now seems to be coming from a playthrough mindset where "Corrin, Jakob and Camilla are the best units so we focus available resources into them, while other units receive limited resources and are tiered based off whatever niche supporting role they can perform with no resources." I'm never quite sure how to view opportunity cost when it comes to tier lists. In today's round ft. Laslow, we saw a lot of discussion about Ninja Laslow. Say, hypothetically, I ranked Heart Seal Corrin S tier, Heart Seal Jakob S tier, Heart Seal Laslow C tier and Mercenary Laslow D tier. Should it be assumed that Corrin and Jakob, being the better units, will always receive the Heart Seal, leaving Laslow in D tier? Or can we say that Laslow is a capable user of Heart Seal, but not as good as Corrin and Jakob, which is already reflected in that they're in S and we're arguing him for C?

Thought I'd add my thoughts on the votes that had happened so far. S: Corrin, Jakob 1, Azura, Niles No issues here. A: Felicia 1, Kaze I think Felicia is closer to B. But I can understand A. Kaze I keep changing my opinion on but looking through the maps he's available for he has something useful to do in pretty much all of them so A seems fine. B: Silas, Elise, Effie, Gunter I don't like Silas and Effie in the same tier at all; I think Silas should be A or Effie should be C. Elise is an interesting case of opportunity cost, but I think Troubadour Elise is probably C or something. Gunter's good and I should probably move him to B in the list in the OP. C: Arthur E: Mozu Fair enough I guess. Today's round looks like C Odin and B Nyx which I would switch but w/e...

Sure, I'll add them. It looks like the stickied "useful links" thread hasn't been updated in a very long time.

Yes, this is my main line of thought, although I'm not sure about useless in C10; she can take tonics and a Vulnerary and clear out the west side easily enough if one wants. I would imagine she's mid-tier in an LTC list, but the more we slow down the worse Nyx becomes; being useful in four maps isn't an especially impressive contribution in standard efficiency. I often see in Discord arguments like "Heart Seal her and make her Leo's wife after C13" when that carries a chunk of opportunity cost (Heart Seal), can be replicated by a big number of other +Spd / +Mov pairs we have available at that point in the game and still doesn't give Leo wings. On the other hand, being useful for four maps is more maps than Benny/Keaton and friends in D are useful in.

So I've read through the arguments in this thread, and made some adjustments. Moved Niles from A to S. Move Silas from B to A. Moved Xander from S to A. Moved Odin from C to B, for now. I was curious about his mid-game (I already know his earlygame with Nosferatu is very solid). Some KO thresholds: C14 Archers: 20 Atk, 17 AS C14 Oni Savage: 21 Atk, 16 AS C16 Dark Mage: 27 Atk, 14 AS C16 Fighter: 23 Atk, 19 AS C16 Berserker: 27 Atk, 21 AS C16 Mercenary: 24 Atk, 21 AS He hits all of these pretty easily... Moved Leo to B. Added Jakob 2 to D. I have Felicia 2 in C right now, and I figured worse chip damage + weaker personal skill warranted a tier difference. Added Shura to D. Other things on my mind: Will have another look over Silas and Odin debates, as their position is still a bit up in the air. Kaze brings a lot of positive qualities, but he might be niche enough to drop to B. Elise is very close to A atm. Selena's probably not far off B. Gunter's another interesting one, from the current C rank. I think Peri's very underwhelming and close to D. Nyx can be pretty useful for a few chapters which is probably more than the rest of D. Voting on the Reddit list is starting within the next 12 hours I think? If people were interested in contributing to that.

I can see Odin up to B. I'm fairly bullish on Odin myself but I know the Conquest community in general is kind of iffy on him (except Serenes Forest which seems to love him). He's comparable to Leo in everything except Magic - he can be kind of borderline on picking up 2HKOs. If we're attributing paralogue loot to a father's tier position then that definitely favours Odin. I can see Leo down to B. Like above, he's statistically comparable to Odin - he doesn't need a forge and is more reliable at picking up 2HKOs but loses 6 maps of availability. I can see Xander down to A. He joins later than the rest of S, and unlike them he offers no utility outside of combat, outside of Shelter. He's also ground-locked to utilise his strongest combat unlike Corrin/Jakob/Camilla which hurts in maps like C20 and C24. I think Elise depends on our stance on visiting online castles. If we allow it, a lot of the opportunity cost of reclassing her goes. I don't care too much for Troubadour Elise but I can see that Wyvern Elise would be a tier above Leo, if we're moving him to B. She is a bit of an Arthur hog though. My guy feel on Shura would be C or D. His averages are comparable to Niles (a Niles that chose the weaker promotion path...) but he has about half the availability and no capture utility, in exchange for D staves.

@Shoblongoo My two main gripes with Troubadour Elise are probably: Physical durability. Lily's Poise mandates you be adjacent to the unit in question, unlike Azura's Sing. This means that Elise can only buff units that are already on the very edge of an enemy's range, which is very restricting for the positions you can put her in / the units she'd be buffing. Her Demoiselle is a little more flexible. Levelling speed. Staff EXP is pretty slow to gain, which impacts her ability to promote quickly and her offensive capabilities after promotion. I will admit it's been a long time since I've used Troubadour Elise in one of my playthroughs so I might be underselling her. The unit I'd think most comparable to her is probably Felicia 1, who I also have in B; where Elise has 1-2 more move and better combat after promotion, Felicia's personal skill is much easier to use and she can actually fight things in the early game (dependent on Corrin marriage to actually fight WELL, but still...). I'd have her in B at the moment but curious to see if others have anything to say on the matter. -- Actually Johnnie thinks she's A so I might be outnumbered. @Johnnie Capture is certainly factored into account when tiering Niles. The main issue is probably the stance on visiting online castles; if we can't gather resources effectively we have to spend a lot of IRL time to persuade prisoners which is a bit of a downer. With unrestricted resources Niles is borderline S - capture utility is fantastic.