Kaoz

Congrats to the mafia for somehow making it through this and good job not throwing in the towel after losing half your team like that. Maybe in 2021 or so. Step up your game till then guys.

I was actually under the impression that people (myself included) were voting him in spite of rather than because of his claim. I also don't like that some of you eased off on him because of the AtE. Not saying it couldn't have been town frustration, but it's not something I'm interested in rewarding (to be clear, that's an add-on, not the reason why I voted him). If you can't handle being suspected, then maybe mafia really isn't a game you should be playing. And if it's actually so bad, he could at least ask for another sub. Unless I missed it, SB and Iris didn't indicate that they're looking for more subs at the moment. Channeling Prims here, this is simply not a slot I'm comfortable having around in the later stages of the game. I'm not hellbent on getting rid of it today since nothing Arcanite has done has changed my mind on that slot and I think it's a good lynch, but I'll continue to push this until my concerns with this slot (and ideally the content if Gaius comes back at some point) are adequately addressed. Not much has changed for me since yesterday and I'm still fine with lynching either of the leading wagons. For the record, Kill's stuff didn't bother me like it apparently did others and hasn't changed my opinion on how I read Kirsche. I think your Sully compilation is interesting and has merit. Supposing that we lynch Arcanite and they flip scum, do you see a parallel there between the way she treats Arcanite now and the way she treated Junko on D2? Like, having them in the pool at first and only taking a more definitive stance once the wagon goes more strongly into one direction? Finally, regardless of what the second part of Sully's role is - should she get in here and claim it in time for the lynch - or whatever might happen, I once again urge everyone to stick to the work done in the past 60 hours instead of trying to throw it away in the last 40 minutes. We should be in a good spot and it'll benefit us more to see a flip with pretty much everyone having taken a stance on the slot than a scenario in which half the players on the wagon vote for consolidation purposes.

It seems like you've changed your mind already, but the way I read it, JB went after eclipse because that wagon was the one gaining momentum at the time and the mafia might have figured it would've been easier to deflect the lynch onto a third person than trying to change a direct confrontation a number of people already seemed to have made up their mind about. And Shinori may have missed the timing for switching to Kirsche while trying to not associate himself with the lynch. I actually don't have much to add outside of that, still cool with lynching Gaius or Arcanine, not particularly sold on any other cases from what I saw. The bookie claim doesn't outweigh my concerns about Gaius from yesterday and I dislike how he handled himself in the past 24 hours in general. If we get some clarification on how the bookie works exactly (which I believe we don't know outside of speculation?) and if it's predicting the lynch to get a vig at night (i.e. easily doable as long as we don't have a chaotic lynch), it may be worth considering doing a setup and vig one of the nulls, but that's about it from my perspective.

Just to confirm, that was indeed me. I can go into why I picked you if anyone is curious. Also, I received the Empower item. If the role isn't incredibly obvious from the character, I don't see a reason not to provide Via with the stuff he needs as long as you think he's town. But on to other matters. I find it a bit disturbing that we went from 9-2-1 wagons 6.5 hours before deadline (Kirsche switches over in the very next post) to a last second decision. I'd like to think that wasn't just all townies running around like headless chicken. The eclipse wagon starts taking off pretty quickly starting here, then the swing to Kirsche happens here. I think the latter is far less telling since it comes from likely town and then the remaining votes on Kirsche seemed to have gotten tacked on because people misread Kirsche's tone (I didn't think he was frustrated scum, I was close to tearing my hairs out while catching up even without getting turbo'd). As for the other counter-wagon, though, I don't really get your position in the post linked above @Lord Gaius. On the one hand you say you've skimmed the cases for the day and on the other hand you seem to not know why Junko's getting lynched even though he's the leading wagon? And if you didn't know what the case against Junko was, what made you so confident to try to get something else started right off the bat instead of waiting a few minutes for an explanation? Also agree with what others have already pointed out that JB's vote timing was very convenient and I can see more of a case being made here than from his position on the D1 wagon. Contrary to Refa's observation, if Baldrick is town, I think it also makes some sense with the way Junko eased off on Kirsche since that makes it easier for him to switch later on depending on how the wagons develop - he could easily stay on Kirsche but also switch to eclipse, which would've been a significant advantage if all 3 wagons had been close at the end. I'm curious what you think about that scenario @Makaze as well as how you evaluate eclipse's position on the Junko wagon yesterday (if memory serves you briefly said something about it yesterday, but not since the flip?). She had three options to tie the Junko wagon at that point (athena, Mack and Weapons) yet chose to put Junko one vote away from the lynch threshold instead. Taking into account that she explicitly didn't show up again for the rest of the phase, had she already given up on Junko at that point or what? And if that's the case, why not put some more conviction into it to at least gain some credit out of the bus? ##Vote: Lord Gaius I'm going here for now, at least until I get a better understanding of his thought process yesterday. I wouldn't mind settling on JB as mentioned above and Arcanite is viable to me still for the same reasons Weapons was yesterday.

I think it depends. Essentially, the question in my eyes isn't so much limited to who was on the wagon, but rather the wagon progression and when it actually became viable as a lynch. From what I gathered, both Fenrir and JB voted Bart pretty early on and then took different actions based on their deadline perceptions. Fenrir went actively against the wagon for consolidation purposes whereas JB doubled down on his earlier vote. But what actually made Bart a viable wagon were votes by Weapons and BBM, who brought it to 3 each and in case of the latter prompted switches from Kirsche and Refa (although Refa had already switched once earlier, curious if the Weapons vote had something to do with that?; as well as yourself, but not-me-over-me is null). I also find it noteworthy that Kirsche switched even though both the Bart and the Junko wagon had 3 votes before his change, which makes it seem as if BBM's vote held the most weight here overall and at best JB is about the same as Weapons in my eyes. For the record, I don't find Kirsche's switch suspicious in this context though because outside of votes, there seemed more vocal support for the Bart lynch, so despite the vote count his impression that his preferred lynch was unlikely strikes me as reasonable. That said, I didn't get the impression that BBM was scum from the cases he made since my last post. I hope you're not expecting me to address everything Refa wrote because that's not going to happen. I'll grant you opinions on Junko and Shinori though. Junko: To be frank, I'm not really getting anything from his posts. I guess what I find the most interesting is that he keeps holding on to the suspicion on you when he seems perfectly willing to change his mind on other stuff like how he went from not getting eclipse's reasoning to leaning town on her upon hearing an explanation. Coupled with the frustration eclipse (in my eyes correctly) pointed out in her assessment of your exchanges, it reads to me as if there's something going on in his mind beyond purely game content. That would also make sense in the context of his dismissal of your pg 18 post on pg 19. If he feels that strongly about you as scum, it would make much more sense to actually get into why your post doesn't do anything for him to get people on his side rather than hand waving it. In the same vein it's weird to me how he insists on the read when he had other options to switch to. That said, since we're close to deadline and he's easily the leading wagon right now, I'm still willing to lynch him without much of a second thought. Shinori: I think his ED1 stuff was fine. Even if you don't agree with the way he went about it, it reads to me as if he tried to push stuff he took issue with, even if it was more minor, to get more content out of the people he attacked and form better reads. For early in the game that's a legitimate strategy in my eyes. The post responding to Satsuma also makes sense to me. Satsuma gave reasons for the other reads, but when it came to Shinori it was just a "yeah, town" kinda deal, so being inquisitive about that is fine. There are some interesting points regarding the reads list though. I'm curious how much you and Refa took into account that those reads are apparently (?) better supported in previous posts. Or is the issue that he only talked about you and Athena before and the scum leans seemed to come out of nowhere? In that case, would it make sense to push those leans over the two hard scum reads he had? Finally, the fact that he left out Junko in the explanations might be telling, but only if Junko flips scum, so it's something to remember for later and not worth pushing right now. Just quoting this post to address the general trend. Overall this line of reasoning is nonsensical. If the general consensus was to lynch a slot if it doesn't die within a given time frame, the mafia certainly benefits from not killing it off and get an easy mislynch out of it. It's not like there are no other dangerous roles or players either, so at best this is meaningless and at worst you'll end up running in circles in your own head. I'm leaving it at this for today since I already spent about twice the amount of time in this thread I had originally intended. Like I said above, I'm fine with lynching Junko today, almost regardless of his claim. If you guys pull some giant shift as a result of it, you better be very confident about the new target and not do it as a panic reaction. If not Junko, my second candidate for today would probably be Weapons/Anime. As mentioned in the first paragraph, I find his position on the wagon yesterday interesting, remember thinking BBM's case on him was solid and Bibbon left me with him at the top of her lynch priority. ##Vote: Junko

Gonna check out some of the stuff that got linked tomorrow, but for now I want to say that I don't feel the JB case. As far as I understand, he's mostly been posting way past midnight and it makes sense to me if he doesn't have the most fleshed out cases at those times. Also, I take issue with several of BBM's points because they either neglect circumstances or, in my eyes, just don't interpret JB's intentions correctly. The Fable stuff from the first two posts reads to me as if JB came into the thread during break or whatever, saw something he thought was off and dropped a vote to get a better read on the situation, but didn't contribute much further due to time constraints. I agree that a bit more substance to the unvote would've been nice, but the question he pitched to Refa doesn't add to that in my eyes. Overall it reads to me as if he unvoted because his reason for the initial vote disappeared (apparently Fable posted some opinions in the meantime), but didn't understand Refa's point on why he thought Fable's initial post was flat-out townie. Those are separate issues. Same goes for the eclipse bit. If targeting people for playing in a certain way is something JB feels town!eclipse does, it's more like a "I don't like this on a content level, but coming from this person it's townie", similar to what he said about kirsche tunneling. It doesn't contradict the final post BBM linked in his case either because the reason for the shifting read is based on something else entirely. I don't quite follow some of the reasoning Athena laid out either. Why is it obvious that there was scum early on the Bart wagon? In this context though, @Refa, what's your take on JB not switching from Bart to Bibbon? And a couple more questions: @Jaybee You unvoted this slot because of the sub, but where is it in your lynch priority disregarding that? Still at the top or did one of the other people you cased now jump ahead? @Omega Can you enlighten me a bit regarding those interactions from past games you brought up?

It's been a while. To make one thing clear from the start, I subbed in under the condition that I won't go back and read anything that has happened so far. As I'm sure some of you saw me on the viewing list the past couple days, I only skimmed a bit, so my knowledge of what's going on is accordingly vague. In that sense, I'd like to ask everyone what their top 3 scum reads are right now. It'd be great if you could include approximately how certain you are of each read as well as why you are scum reading that slot. If you made a more detailed case that still applies, feel free to just link that post instead. Also, a list of role claims would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Could do first come first served after every 5 games (so you go through a queue of 5 until no games are on it anymore, then refill it with 5 new games at once). Alternatively people could vote on the game they want to play, but personally, I don't think that's too great of a system because it might mean some hosts never get a turn.

Just for the record, I didn't say that. I only responded to BBM saying that EIMM would stomp out the other formats if they shared a queue and that there are workarounds for that. It's good to hear you guys are organizing something though. Well, that's at least partially because I don't use Discord which is my own choice (and "fault" in this case). It's not a bad idea to announce difficulties publicly as they arise though.

Well, it depends on how it's done. If EIMMs are the main attraction these days, you're right that if you pit them against each other straight-up it'll hurt the other games. But in that case you could also just suspend EIMMs while (N)OC games are going on. It's not like activity in this subforum is so high anymore that people can't live without shooting each other in the face for two weeks even if they don't like playing the traditional styles. As for the rest of what happened, I don't know all the details, so I don't feel comfortable commenting on any specifics at this point. Just in general, however, there are two things I'd like to add: Please do remember that this is ultimately a game (and this applies to NOC and OC too, so while I understand that it can be annoying for other players if someone flakes in them, try to stay relaxed about it, especially if it's an exception for that person rather than the rule; it's not the end of the world). And while it is a social game like Mitsuki said, that's still a game regardless. So while I second her request that all players are mindful, that goes for everyone involved. On the one hand don't hit below the belt, on the other hand keep in mind that almost everything said and done in this environment concerns you as a player (often in just one specific game) rather than you as a person. Most of you know each other well enough by this point that you shouldn't severely worsen your relationships over this. To pick up on what Prims and Marth said, maybe it is time to sit down and have a proper talk about the rules. From what I recall the current ones more or less evolved naturally as games became more frequent, but that doesn't mean they're really optimal. As it stands, exactly three people can win with the standard win condition, so as soon as a fourth person comes into play, it's likely someone will be betrayed. Right now, that's a fact you need to accept when you sign up for one of these. If that's an issue for too many people, it's necessary to sit down and have a proper discussion about this in which as many interested parties as possible should come together to say what they really like about these games and what they really dislike and then hopefully come to an agreement to reconcile as many of those views as possible (please make a separate thread for that though, so it doesn't get lost).

I have a feeling the forest will burn down before that role gets buried for good.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=35097 You know the drill.

I'd like to hear a bit more about this. I watched the episode in both German and English and (as you might expect) it's not a 1:1 translation. For instance, at the very beginning Agatha has a line in the German version that flat-out doesn't exist in the English one and Blue's line at the end is also completely different. With that in mind I wonder about the other language versions and in exactly which ways they differ from each other, both in terms of completely new lines and also nuances. I did a pretty literal translation of the German script into English to highlight what changed between those if anyone is interested: [spoiler=English script] Agatha: I understand your impatience. It has been quite a while since a trainer has collected 8 gym badges. Lorelei: I'm sorry, but you won't be seeing him. I'll freeze him right into place. Bruno: Nrg. Lance: Well then, let us prepare. And I especially look forward to seeing... how good he really is. Blue: Just you wait, Elite 4. The greatest Pokemon Trainer in the world, that is me. Lorelei: Welcome to the Pokemon League. I'm here to greet you, challenger. Ready? Blue: I'll smash your ice into a million pieces. Lorelei: Oof. Blue: See that? I happen to be an incredible genius. Lorelei: Fine then, I will let you go on ahead. You won't be so lucky next time. Bruno: I'm Bruno of the Elite 4. The Pokemon you train... show them to me. MmmmRAAAAAARGH! Blue: I hope you can offer me more of a challenge. Bruno: Urrrgh uuah. How could I have... been defeated? Blue: That's all you've got? The truth is, my Pokemon and I, we haven't even come close to being serious. Agatha: Well, well, it's no surprise you've come this far. Blue: It's just exactly as I planned. Agatha: Really? Since you're the grandson of that old coot I'd thought you'd be completing the Pokedex. Blue: Don't you compare me with that old man! Agatha: Eheeh. Blue: Gathering data for the Pokedex is just a tool to become stronger. Agatha: How interesting. Now then, this is my last Pokemon. Go, Gengar! Lance: So I see that you've made it this far. Blue: I'll sit on the throne. You'll lose and I'll be champion. Lance: Show me what you've got. Let's see how you fare against the leader of the Elite 4 and my army of dragons! Blue: Blastoise, go! - This one is really strong, don't get scared. Lance: Attack. - That's a very powerful move. Blue: Call it a greeting. Now let's settle this! Lance: Do your worst! Blue: I finally did it. I'm the champion of the Pokemon League. Hurry up and come. Hmpf. Hey, so you're finally here. Haha. Fantastic. [spoiler=German script] Agatha: Was denn? Ich bin nicht zu spät. Aber ich kann eure Ungeduld durchaus verstehen. Schließlich passiert es nicht alles Tage, dass es einem Trainer gelingt alle 8 Arenaorden zu sammeln. Lorelei: Ich muss euch entäuschen, ihr werdet nicht zum Zug kommen. Ich werde ihn nämlich vorher einfrieren. Bruno: Hrg. Lance: Also dann, machen wir uns bereit. Ich bin wirklich überaus gespannt was er drauf hat. Blue: Endlich werd ich den Top 4 begegnen und ihnen den stärksten Trainer der Welt vorstellen können, nämlich mich. Lorelei: Willkommen in der Pokemon Liga. Ich bin deine erste Gegnerin. Bist du bereit? Blue: Und ob, ich werde dein Eis in tausend Stücke hauen. Lorelei: Ngh. Blue: Na was sagst du nun, ich bin eben ein echtes Genie. Lorelei: Nun gut, du hast gewonnen und darfst somit weitergehen, aber der nächste Kampf, der wird anders laufen. Bruno: Ich bin Bruno von den Top 4. Zeig mir die Pokemon... die du trainiert hast. MmmmRAAAAAARGH! Blue: Dann wollen wir mal sehen, ob du mich besiegen kannst. Bruno: Urrrrgh uuah. Wie konnte ich... konnte ich verlieren? Blue: Huh war das jetzt wirklich schon alles? Weil naja, meine Pokemon und ich, wir haben schließlich noch nicht mal ansatzweise Ernst gemacht. Agatha: Ohoho, du hast es tatsächlich ganz schön weit gebracht. Blue: Genau wir ich es geplant hatte. Agatha: Weißt du, wegen deines Großvaters hatte ich eigentlich angenommen, dass du gemütlich an deinem Pokedex arbeitest. Blue: Vergleich mich ja nicht mit meinem Opa! Agatha: Hehehe. Blue: Das Datensammeln für den Pokedex ist für mich nur ein Mittel zum Zweck, um noch stärker zu werden. Agatha: Äußerst interessant. So sei es also, hier kommt mein letztes Pokemon. Loos Gengaar! Lance: Du hast es also bis hierher geschafft. Blue: Und dich werd ich auch besiegen. Ich werde... auf dem Thron des Champs sitzen. Lance: Zeig mir was du ausrichten kannst... gegen meine Drachen und... gegen mich, das Oberhaupt der Top 4! Blue: Los Turtok, du bist dran! - Turtok ist wirklich stark, ich warne dich. Lance: Na los. - Welch beeindruckende Kraft. Blue: Nur ein kleiner Vorgeschmack. Mach dich auf was gefasst! Lance: Ich bin gespannt! Blue: Ich habs geschafft, ich bin der Champ der Pokemonliga. Na los, komm her. Da bist du ja. Auf diesen Moment warte ich schon lange - sehr lange. [spoiler=German script translation] Agatha: What is it? I am not late. But I can definitely understand your impatience. After all, it does not happen every day that a trainer manages to collect all 8 gym badges. Lorelei: I have to disappoint you, you won't get a turn. Because I will freeze him right away. Bruno: Hrg. Lance: Well then, let's get ready. I am very curious to see what he's capable of. Blue: Finally I'll get to face the Elite 4 and introduce them to the world's strongest trainer: me. Lorelei: Welcome to the Pokemon League. I'm your first opponent. Are you ready? Blue: But of course. I will chop your ice into a thousand pieces. Lorelei: Ngh. Blue: So, what do you say? I'm just a true genius. Lorelei: Very well, you've won and thus you're allowed to move on, however, the next fight, that one will be different. Bruno: I'm Bruno of the Elite 4. Show me the Pokemon... you've trained. MmmmRAAAAAARGH! Blue: Then let's see if you can defeat me. Bruno: Urrrgh uuah. How could I... could I lose? Blue: Huh was that already it, seriously? Because, well, my Pokemon and I, we aren't even close to being serious yet. Agatha: Ohoho, you really have achieved quite a bit. Blue: Just as I planned. Agatha: You know, because of your grandfather I had assumed you would be leisurely working on your Pokedex. Blue: Don't compare me to my grandad! Agatha: Hehehe. Blue: Gathering data for the Pokedex is only a means to an end to become even stronger. Agatha: Very interesting. So be it then, this is my last Pokemon. Goo Gengaar! Lance: So you've made it this far. Blue: And I'll defeat you too. I will... sit on the champ's throne. Lance: Show me what you can do... against my dragons and... against me, the leader of the Elite 4! Blue: Go Blastoise, it's your turn! - Blastoise is really strong, I'm warning you. Lance: Well, go. - What impressive power. Blue: Just a small taste of things to come. Prepare yourself! Lance: I'm looking forward to it! Blue: I've done it, I'm the Pokemon League champ. Come on, get over here. There you are. I've been waiting for this moment for a long time - a very long time. And like I said, if anyone else watched the episode in other languages, I'm very curious to hear about the differences there as well.

I've updated the queues, but if you submitted a game recently or somewhat recently you should check to make sure it's actually on there. Also, removed Monster Mafia, or did you change your mind on this?

1. Persuasion 2. Towniness 3. Accuracy