OMG it's a tier list

[XeKr]

Being stronger, more durable, more reliable, all in the name of using as few resources as possible to achieve the goal. That's another form of efficiency. I prefer it to turn-based efficiency because it's closer to my style and is less likely to favour certain classes, but that may not be enough to base a tier list on it.

I think your position is very fair and valid discussion material. I think, in most cases, people won’t disagree hugely with you or your conclusions. I am a bit curious what’s the purpose of having the bexp limit at all though. I don't think it adds anything very valuable.

The only other thing I would ask is how would you define stronger or more durable? As I understand it, we’ve gotten past looking at numbers in a void, so we try to compare to enemy stats. We’ve gotten past comparing to cherry-picked enemy stats in a database, so we prefer to add in-game context. In a given chapter, what enemies can a unit reach, or will they fight? What does it mean to be “better” at fighting certain enemies vs. others? In my eyes, the logical end to that thought process is something intricately connected to turncounts.

It's because I admit I don't have all the answers just yet. That's why I said I wanted to "play it by ear" to see where it goes. But instead of rolling with a new idea or at least asking me to expand a bit past the word "intuition," people immediately signed it off as not being worthwhile.

And that's what prompted me to say I know how the FEFF people felt, because they always said the SF tier community was a bunch of hotheads who aren't accepting of any ideas they aren't used to.

Forgive me if I'm a little bitter about it.

It is unfortunately incredibly difficult to break into the hivemind of commonly accepted thought, but that’s how these things go. Plus, changing community consensus toward an accepted standard is a whole different beast than examining the inherent self-consistency of a standard. Some arguments were admittedly the former (dismissing the argument because it was different/new/old) while some were the latter (pointing out obvious, potentially irreconcilable issues).

Re: Snowy’s stuff: Can I just briefly interject how utterly hilarious it would be if someone went into any other community, proposing to tier characters based on what would happen if a “casual” player refused to use certain dominant/useful tactics? >_>

EDIT: Not really seriously meaning it in any way. I just found it funny to consider, like in a FG list for example. <_<

Edited October 10, 2013 by XeKr

[Hawk King]

Snowy needs to be banned from posting in tier list discussions.

Im not joking at all. His posts on the last 3 page have been suggesting rescue-drops and shove/smites being banned when considering a units worth. And then he complains about units being too high on the list because of their rescue-drop utility, and their combat ability should be what they are ranked on. But the units he points out dont rescue-drop at all, and they ARE high on the list BECAUSE OF THEIR ABILITY TO KILL THINGS.

He has no knowledge of efficient play. He hates LTC and he has never played any FE efficiently. He has no idea what hes talking about 90% of the time. He is selective on the points he argues about.

He just wastes people's time.

[Espinosa]

'Efficiency' as a tiering criterion can be (and is continuously) challenged, so as long as we don't explicitly name it an 'efficiency tier list' Snowy has every right to walk into this topic to express dissenting opinions. Whether that is a productive discussion to indulge in is a different matter entirely.

I think the last few pages since this topic received its recentest bump have been tremendously confusing and messy, and Snowy cannot be blamed for that alone.

Question to drafters: the fliers who aren't dracos - Marcia, Tanith, Sigurd - how much potential do they have in the lategame? They're all pretty low.

[shadykid]

Re: Snowy’s stuff: Can I just briefly interject how utterly hilarious it would be if someone went into any other community, proposing to tier characters based on what would happen if a “casual” player refused to use certain dominant/useful tactics? >_>

EDIT: Not really seriously meaning it in any way. I just found it funny to consider, like in a FG list for example. <_<

"Soul Fist is cheap, ban pls"-Snowy, while playing UMvC3

[Redwall]

It's totally fine for Snowy to express dissenting opinions, as has been pointed out. If you don't like what he has to say, then you don't have to respond.

[Snowy_One]

What the frick is Soul Fist?

Anyways, I wouldn't be the one demanding bans, or at the least Rosealina would be banned when I played Mario Kart with my friends. Just that they stop doing the victory dances when they win.

That aside, here's one simple question. If no one has rescue-dropping, LTC strategizing, or any of the things I usually hate in a tier list as a reason for their placement, why did you opt to claim that these things were right instead of simply saying that it wasn't/isn't due to the nature of the game?

[General Banzai]

no keep snowy, if he's gone then i'll be the worst one here

[-Cynthia-]

Question to drafters: the fliers who aren't dracos - Marcia, Tanith, Sigurd - how much potential do they have in the lategame? They're all pretty low.

People vary on this, they certainly have less availability than the dracos so the resource expenditure into them doesn't have the same output. They also have fairly low base stats so some amount of resources is needed to get their combat to a decent level. Marcia and Tanith do have some long term potential though since they can double, although Marcia's Str is pretty low.

Edited October 10, 2013 by -Cynthia-

[PKL]

Espinosa- Marcia is second round in FE10 drafts. First pick in FE9.

[Irysa]

'Efficiency' as a tiering criterion can be (and is continuously) challenged, so as long as we don't explicitly name it an 'efficiency tier list' Snowy has every right to walk into this topic to express dissenting opinions. Whether that is a productive discussion to indulge in is a different matter entirely.

I think the last few pages since this topic received its recentest bump have been tremendously confusing and messy, and Snowy cannot be blamed for that alone.

Question to drafters: the fliers who aren't dracos - Marcia, Tanith, Sigurd - how much potential do they have in the lategame? They're all pretty low.

Sigurd has no potential because he's dead.

As for Sigrun...she's forced and close to a tier 3 so that...probably works in her favor a bit? Dunno how much though, litearlly never used her.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Irysa

[Ema Skye]

Marcia is usually round 2-3, Tanith goes after Marcia so usually round 3-4 and Sigrun is somewhere between late round 3 to early round 5. All three usually go before Janaff and Ulki, though sometimes Sigrun does go after the Hawks.

Thought drafts are on Normal Mode and I think the tier list assumes Hard mode so that changes things.

[PKL]

Yeah what doofina said. I'd say Tanith has more lategame potential than Marcia in HM. But Marcia has one or 2 more unique contributions to her name and is still serviceable. Sigrun is like, completely outclassed but she can still be useful by ferrying things i guess.

[dondon151]

No. We shouldn't reward them. If we did we would be rewarding the person who thought up the strategy that allowed them to become useful, not the unit itself. If a units entire value is in their ability to rescue-drop, something that not everyone who uses the unit will employ or in that manner, we aren't making a tier-list. We're making a LTC guide.

yeah let's just ignore an entire mechanic

meanwhile let's also not reward units for be able to use forges (would hurt hand axe and javelin users disproportionately) or for being able to use staves.

[shadykid]

yeah let's just ignore an entire mechanic

meanwhile let's also not reward units for be able to use forges (would hurt hand axe and javelin users disproportionately) or for being able to use staves.

k let's kick Laura to bottom tier

And Laura-down? Really? Until Micaiah promotes Laura is, literally, the ONLY unit who can use staves in the DB meaning, unless you fancy shelling out G/spending turns chugging vulneraries, having Micaiah sacrifice (which really doesn't do anything beyond move the damage to Micaiah) Laura will be your only healer. Ilyana can heal as well, but that requires promotions and Ilyana can switch sides. Just the fact that Laura *can* heal will make her very useful to the DB. Especially since her base healing is a whopping 18 with a heal staff (Micaiah doesn't even have that many hitpoints to sacrifice) and, when trained, she's at LEAST as capable as a sage in combat. Yea. I don't see why Laura should move anywhere.

darn

[Baldrick]

I think your position is very fair and valid discussion material. I think, in most cases, people wont disagree hugely with you or your conclusions. I am a bit curious whats the purpose of having the bexp limit at all though. I don't think it adds anything very valuable.

The only other thing I would ask is how would you define stronger or more durable? As I understand it, weve gotten past looking at numbers in a void, so we try to compare to enemy stats. Weve gotten past comparing to cherry-picked enemy stats in a database, so we prefer to add in-game context. In a given chapter, what enemies can a unit reach, or will they fight? What does it mean to be better at fighting certain enemies vs. others? In my eyes, the logical end to that thought process is something intricately connected to turncounts.

The BEXP limit is to prevent turtling and boss abuse, which will make tiering impossible, given time is an infinite resource.

My view is to take combat in a "horses for courses" manner, primarily on performance but also taking into account what they gain from the (combat) experience and what benefit they will provide if properly levelled. Lower turncounts will naturally result from using higher-tier units but (imho) they are meant to be a pleasant side-effect, not the aim, so removing them from the equation makes sure we don't put the cart before the horse. To use an example, if we had Mia and Gatrie against a large group of far-off enemies the best solution is not to spend resources beforehand to pump Mia up to Gatrie's level and have her engage them because she can reach them quicker, but to have Gatrie engage them and go a bit slower.

It's totally fine for Snowy to express dissenting opinions, as has been pointed out. If you don't like what he has to say, then you don't have to respond.

Dude you should stop trying to squash discussion with your anti-intellectualist agenda ;)

[BBM]

The BEXP limit is to prevent turtling and boss abuse, which will make tiering impossible, given time is an infinite resource.

My view is to take combat in a "horses for courses" manner, primarily on performance but also taking into account what they gain from the (combat) experience and what benefit they will provide if properly levelled. Lower turncounts will naturally result from using higher-tier units but (imho) they are meant to be a pleasant side-effect, not the aim, so removing them from the equation makes sure we don't put the cart before the horse. To use an example, if we had Mia and Gatrie against a large group of far-off enemies the best solution is not to spend resources beforehand to pump Mia up to Gatrie's level and have her engage them because she can reach them quicker, but to have Gatrie engage them and go a bit slower.

This doesn't make sense. A trained Gatrie is not as useful as a trained Mia. His SPD cap is too low for endgame. A properly leveled Mia provides more benefit than a properly leveled Gatrie even if you don't care much for turncounts past BEXP limits, and even without 1-2 range. Even if you look at ease of combat as your main objective, shoveling resources into Mia is smarter than simply not using them, or shoveling them into Gatrie, who has no need for them.

Yes, Jill is primarily being made a resource dump because she's a flier, but even if you don't see movement as the be-all and end-all, it should be clear that there's really only benefit to raising one DB unit (two at most). It's therefore most logical to dump everything into one person, whomever that is, to maximize their combat abilities. Who are your choices? Leo, Edward, and Zihark don't have consistent 1-2 range, so they're not really optimal. Aran is supposed to be a pseudo-Knight except he can't really tank very well and also has nothing extra really going for him. Sothe's growths and endgame class suck. Laura and Micaiah are too slow and frail. Getting Volug to a good part 4 is pretty difficult. That only really leaves Nolan and Jill.

Now this is where movement and flying gives Jill the edge and not just makes things faster, but makes fulfilling the chapter objectives much easier. She can fly into the swamp in 3-6 and reach enemies that Nolan can't. She can fly over the mountains in that other part 3 chapter (can't remember which one that is) and destroy stuff way before Nolan has the opportunity. In the desert, Nolan is stuck with like 3 movement and the difference is even more stark. Add everything up and plowing Jill (if you know what I mean ;);) is smarter than putting everything into Nolan. And at this point after you start dumping stuff into Jill, she snowballs incredibly fast.

And as for why Jill competes so well with non-DB units- she's much less replaceable then any of them are. In the GMs you have Haar, Titania, Ike, Oscar, Gatrie, Shinon, Mia, Neph, and Boyd, all of whom have good combat. In the DB you have just Jill (or Nolan).

[Baldrick]

I'm replying in the tiering philosophy thread because that's what it's there for and it doesn't pertain to this tier list.

[Snowy_One]

This doesn't make sense. A trained Gatrie is not as useful as a trained Mia. His SPD cap is too low for endgame. A properly leveled Mia provides more benefit than a properly leveled Gatrie even if you don't care much for turncounts past BEXP limits, and even without 1-2 range. Even if you look at ease of combat as your main objective, shoveling resources into Mia is smarter than simply not using them, or shoveling them into Gatrie, who has no need for them.

Yes, Jill is primarily being made a resource dump because she's a flier, but even if you don't see movement as the be-all and end-all, it should be clear that there's really only benefit to raising one DB unit (two at most). It's therefore most logical to dump everything into one person, whomever that is, to maximize their combat abilities. Who are your choices? Leo, Edward, and Zihark don't have consistent 1-2 range, so they're not really optimal. Aran is supposed to be a pseudo-Knight except he can't really tank very well and also has nothing extra really going for him. Sothe's growths and endgame class suck. Laura and Micaiah are too slow and frail. Getting Volug to a good part 4 is pretty difficult. That only really leaves Nolan and Jill.

Now this is where movement and flying gives Jill the edge and not just makes things faster, but makes fulfilling the chapter objectives much easier. She can fly into the swamp in 3-6 and reach enemies that Nolan can't. She can fly over the mountains in that other part 3 chapter (can't remember which one that is) and destroy stuff way before Nolan has the opportunity. In the desert, Nolan is stuck with like 3 movement and the difference is even more stark. Add everything up and plowing Jill (if you know what I mean ;);) is smarter than putting everything into Nolan. And at this point after you start dumping stuff into Jill, she snowballs incredibly fast.

And as for why Jill competes so well with non-DB units- she's much less replaceable then any of them are. In the GMs you have Haar, Titania, Ike, Oscar, Gatrie, Shinon, Mia, Neph, and Boyd, all of whom have good combat. In the DB you have just Jill (or Nolan).

I actually don't disagree with this statement but, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't Micaiah required for at least one chapter in part 4? Wouldn't leveling her make her a lot more useful, or the chapter easier cause you won't have a super-weak unit to babysit? Or am I just remembering part 4 wrong?

[Baldrick]

If you invest in her she can take a hit, but it's not really worth it considering she'll still be mostly staving and Thani-bombing. There isn't any chapters where protecting her is difficult, anyway.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Huck Finn

[Samias]

I find by part 3 Micaiah gets the majority of her exp spamming physic. She doesn't promote until 4-E so generally there is no rush to train her. No matter what you do, physical enemies usually ream her due to her extremely focused magic/luck/red growth. Generally speaking she will do okay without attention and become your endgame staffbot because she's forces but not strong enough to contribute good damage since circumstances leave her under leveled.

Also, Nolan isn't forced to the desert, so him having 3 mov there is irrelevant. He'd rather go with Ike and co to the foot-friendly chapters, or maybe even Tibarn's route. Jill and Haar absolutely dominate the desert map since they don't care about the large number of bow users there at all compared to Tanith, Marcia, and Sigrun, who all comparatively must take things slower due to their lower physical durability and lower strength.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Samias

[PKL]

I personally like Tanith and Marcia in the Hawk Route, because they fly with 1-2 range and that map is heavily biased towards fliers. Tibarn Elincia Marcia Tanith gg. Desert already is enough with Jill Sigrun and Haar.

[BBM]

I suppose Nolan not having to go with Micaiah is a good point. But then if he goes with Ike's band, he has to compete with the aforementioned super buff GMs and doesn't really provide anything new when Oscar and Titania have good combat with higher move and Ike ORKOs everything at 1-2 range with Ragnell. I can't really remember Tibarn's maps well but at least 4-5 is 1-turnable fairly easily and I don't think Nolan does much there.

[Horakthi]

I find it a little peculiar that no one has moved Jill (T) up to easy mode tier when it's been proven that she's the best character in the game in LTC restrictions--note that this tier list is less strict, meaning that she has more room to grow--and Haar can mostly be replaced by Titania. It's not like the GM needs Haar as much as the DB needs Jill. Haar can be mostly replaced whereas Jill cannot.

[PKL]

I guess her contributions just aren't weighted as much. But you do have a point. Units that are good in LTC are usually even better in noLTC since they can get even more exp. Not always true though.

[Espinosa]

We haven't proved that at all, though. The DB "need" her combat in only, like, 2 chapters. She spends part 1 by either being absent or performing self-improvement.