OMG it's a tier list

[Horakthi]

But what you said applies to Haar as well. He's kinda overrated.

Let's ignore Part 4 for the sake of simplicity. From what I can see from the LTC videos, Jill does a lot of things no one else can in 1-7, 3-6, 3-12 and 3-13 combined. The GM, on the other hand, would really like Haar in 3-3 and 3-4. None of them are completely necessary in any of this chapters, of course, but they're still very handy to have.

Let's assume we're in the context of this tier list for a second. That is, efficiency as opposed to LTC. The turns lost in 1-7, 3-3, 3-4, 3-6, 3-12, 3-13 don't really matter much anymore at all, and combat matters more. So what happens then?

In that case, Jill has a lot more time to catch up, and Haar is kinda useless now that he can basically be replaced by Titania and there are a lot of good combat units other than him anyway. But no one in the DB can even compare to a well trained Jill.

The reason I think Jill (T) > Haar is simply because of the context she's in. Unlike Haar, she's with a group that needs her a lot more. Feel free to disregard my opinion though.

[Espinosa]

A great unit is a great unit. You say Titania makes Haar useless, but this logic also entails that Titania is made useless by Haar, and we deduce that Haar and Titania are two useless units, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Haar wallops the game from the first map he appears in until the very last. Jill requires a lot of effort to reach the same level of performance in a party that consists entirely of units superior to her in Part 1, and the main reason why she's the MVP of a lowest possible turn counts run is because we can't permit not to KO Ike in our 2-turn of his map. Of course out of two fliers the one with 11 move will be performing better than the one with 9 move, but we cannot assume Boots on Jill (but essentially, we cannot hand wave their cost) just because she shaves off just one turn on one particular map with it.

This tier list wasn't made under the assumption that 'turn counts don't matter much'; otherwise, there'd be no problem with waiting a bit longer for Nolan to take care of the laguz with his Tarvos. Really, DB without Jill can stand on its own two legs just fine, it's just not flying anytime soon (okay, Vika is).

[Horakthi]

The logic works: I don't deny that Haar and Titania are both great units. However, they can still replace each other--despite both being great units.

Jill (T), on the other hand, cannot be replaced. Hence why I think she should be above Haar. Because unlike Haar, she cannot be replaced by Nolan or Volug or Sothe or whatever.

[Florete]

Jill (T) can be replaced by others, though. It will just make part 3 maps take a turn or two more. Similarly, Haar is not completely replaceable by Titania; there are certain maps where he can make things happen faster than her.

Simply having a unique trait doesn't make a unit great. It has to be put to good enough use. Jill puts her flight to good use, but not that good.

[Horakthi]

Let's see what Jill can do that doesn't involve saving turns:

1. She can take a unit like Sothe and carry him over the river so that the other units won't get killed, and bexp won't be lost as a result.

2. She can fly over gaps in 1-7, which is handy. The only other unit who can do that is Vika.

3. She can fly over gaps in 1-E and get some exp.

4. This is extremely important: she's by far both the most flexible and the most durable unit you have in 3-6. While Nolan can move like 2 or 3 tiles in the swamp (I forget how much exactly) she can move 9 tiles. She can go around the map as she pleases. No other unit can do that. On average, Jill (T) has 6 more def than Nolan, both at level 1 promoted. This difference remains around the same as both level up. And you can indeed bring up Tarvos if you so wish, but it's worth noting that Nolan can't use a Hand Axe and get the def boost at the same time, unlike Jill.

5. In 3-12, Jill can just bypass the hill and use Hand Axes, unlike Nolan, who doesn't get the def boost with a Hand Axe. This is extremely handy because there's a decent amount of 1-2 range users here.

6. In 3-13, well, I think it's already been argued previously that giving Boots to Jill is by far a better choice than giving it to Nolan due to Part 4. An 11 move unit with flight is a lot better in Part 4 than a 9 move unit on foot. If you're using Nolan instead of Jill here, you're going to save the Boots for Haar, most likely. So I don't think Nolan is getting the Boots here.

So using Jill instead of Nolan makes the whole thing a lot easier because she's so much more durable and flexible than Nolan is. She has a lot more move, she has flight, she has Canto, she's way more durable and she can use Hand Axes while still being durable unlike Nolan.

Let's see who we have instead of Jill: Nolan (who is completely outclassed), Volug (who is stuck to 1 range and smoking Olivi Grass every other turn), Sothe (who becomes pretty lame in Part 3 due to both offense and defense issues) and Zihark (same issue as Sothe).

Haar doesn't seem that impressive:

1. He can fly around and burn supplies in 3-3.

2. He can fly over the mountain in 3-4.

And he can get replaced by Titania and your other fliers everywhere else. Let's see who we have instead of Haar as potential combat units: Titania (who is the perfect Haar substitute with the exception of these two chapters), Oscar, Janaff, Ulki, Marcia, Tanith, Shinon, Gatrie, Mia, Ike and so on.

I rest my case. I think that Jill (T) should be above Haar for this reason: the DB needs her more than the GM needs Haar.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Horakthi

[Shadow Mir]

Haar doesn't seem that impressive:

1. He can fly around and burn supplies in 3-3.

2. He can fly over the mountain in 3-4.

And he can get replaced by Titania and your other fliers everywhere else. Let's see who we have instead of Haar as potential combat units: Titania (who is the perfect Haar substitute with the exception of these two chapters), Oscar, Janaff, Ulki, Marcia, Tanith, Shinon, Gatrie, Mia, Ike and so on.

Yes, Haar is replaceable.... Or not. Many of the so-called "replacements" have some sort of flaw.

[dondon151]

i'm pretty sure that the only map in which haar saves massive turns is 3-3. 3-4 can be done nearly as quickly with ranulf carrying ike to the arrive tiles.

[shadykid]

i'm pretty sure that the only map in which haar saves massive turns is 3-3. 3-4 can be done nearly as quickly with ranulf carrying ike to the arrive tiles.

3-11?

[Ema Skye]

Haar's TC on 3-11 can be replicated by Jill.

[shadykid]

Haar's TC on 3-11 can be replicated by Jill.

that would require losing Jill for 3-12 and 3-13 though, so that might as well not count

[dondon151]

3-11?

ulki/janaff can do admirably. you also have pegasus knights.

Edited October 11, 2013 by dondon151

[shadykid]

ulki/janaff can do admirably. you also have pegasus knights.

I thought it was a lot riskier to use other fliers

not that it particularly matters though, I guess

Edited October 11, 2013 by shadykid

[Florete]

This is all a horrific understatement (for Haar's case).

1. She can take a unit like Sothe and carry him over the river so that the other units won't get killed, and bexp won't be lost as a result.

2. She can fly over gaps in 1-7, which is handy. The only other unit who can do that is Vika.

3. She can fly over gaps in 1-E and get some exp.

Self-improvement or unimportant extras. Haar doesn't have these because Haar doesn't need these.

Part 3 is the place she really does shine, but she still only saves a turn or two per map. 3-6's minimum turn count is 7, I believe, and a competent team even without Jill can probably get that, or at least 8. She's definitely irreplaceable in 3-12, but two turns there also requires a lot of luck, and 4 turns isn't difficult without her. Almost anyone can do 3-13 in 2-3 turns.

Haar doesn't seem that impressive:

1. He can fly around and burn supplies in 3-3.

2. He can fly over the mountain in 3-4.

3. He can fly over the obstacles in 3-8. Enemies can get in the way pretty easily, so this is useful.

4. He's the most durable and offensive for 3-11. Pegasi? Worse durability and offense all around. Hawks? No range and a gauge to worry about. Titania? No wings.

Jill is impressive for 3 maps before part 4. Haar is impressive for 11. Yes, some of what he does is replicable, but he's still pretty much the best at it (only Titania really competes, but her durability gives her problems at times where Haar would be fine). Jill is in the same boat, only she doesn't start nearly as good and isn't as good for as long. Yes, even Jill(T). Haar comes and is basically the best on his team forever while Jill has a lot to compete with in part 1.

And he can get replaced by Titania and your other fliers everywhere else. Let's see who we have instead of Haar as potential combat units: Titania (who is the perfect Haar substitute with the exception of these two chapters), Oscar, Janaff, Ulki, Marcia, Tanith, Shinon, Gatrie, Mia, Ike and so on.

Pffft.

"These units can easily replace Haar, but no, Jill is irreplaceable. Nolan, Sothe, Zihark? Scrubs. Oscar, Shinon, Gatrie, Mia? Ha, who's Haar?"

No.

[dondon151]

i'm going to disregard the whole jill (T) into easy mode tier train for a second and ask for a moment why she hasn't been moved up at all yet.

[Florete]

She has. Notice how she's now above Nailah.

[Redwall]

HP transfers for Jill (T) should be assumed on top of the ones already listed--the HP boost makes 3-6 and, according to Celes, 1-6-1 more reliable.

[Horakthi]

she still only saves a turn or two per map

Why do you keep bringing up LTCing into this? That's not what I'm trying to discuss here.

But, after all, you own this tier list, so if you want to debate on turn counts, then it's already been proven that Jill (T) is better than Haar. Haar only saves a decent amount of turns on 3-3, as dondon already pointed out. You can easily just give Ranulf Celerity and/or Pass or whatever and just speed through 3-4. Janaff, Ulki, Marcia etc. can all replace Haar in 3-11. Even if Jill saves one or two turns per map, she contributes in a lot of maps; how many does Haar save from 3-3 and 3-4, his main contributions? Probably less than Jill.

No one can replace Jill in 1-6-2. No one can replace Jill in 3-6. No one can replace Jill in 3-12. No one can replace Jill in 3-13. If she does get the Boots--since it saves a turn from 3-13 to do so--no one can replace Jill in Part 4.

Why is a unit that only has a significant unique contribution in 1 chapter and a minor contribution in the next chapter better than a unit who has unique contributions in 1 chapter on Part 1, 3 chapters on Part 3 and every Part 4 chapter (assuming she gets the Boots)? I just really find it peculiar that all of Jill's contributions get ignored so consistently.

[dondon151]

She has. Notice how she's now above Nailah.

let me rephrase the question:

why is she not in top tier?

[General Banzai]

I find it a little peculiar that no one has moved Jill (T) up to easy mode tier when it's been proven that she's the best character in the game in LTC restrictions--note that this tier list is less strict, meaning that she has more room to grow--and Haar can mostly be replaced by Titania. It's not like the GM needs Haar as much as the DB needs Jill. Haar can be mostly replaced whereas Jill cannot.

jill being above haar makes this tier list meaningless to everyone actually playing this game

[Redwall]

Just realized FE9 Jill isn't likely to produce an HP transfer at all. Never mind, then.

[Florete]

HP transfers for Jill (T) should be assumed on top of the ones already listed--the HP boost makes 3-6 and, according to Celes, 1-6-1 more reliable.

It's not about what's good, it's about what's reasonably acquirable.

Why do you keep bringing up LTCing into this? That's not what I'm trying to discuss here.

Because, as the people have spoken, this is an efficiency tier list with an emphasis on turns and reliability. Jill needs to save turns to be valuable.

You can easily just give Ranulf Celerity and/or Pass or whatever and just speed through 3-4.

This is fundamentally the same as asserting that Sothe/Nolan/Zihark/Volug can replace Jill in 3-6.

Janaff, Ulki, Marcia etc. can all replace Haar in 3-11.

Covered. Like, really.

Even if Jill saves one or two turns per map, she contributes in a lot of maps; how many does Haar save from 3-3 and 3-4, his main contributions? Probably less than Jill.

Turn counts and reliability both matter. Even if Jill can be proven to save 1 or 2 more turns, there's no denying Haar is more reliable, compared both to Jill and his own team.

No one can replace Jill in 1-6-2.

What the hell does Jill do in 1-6-2 that's so special? She's definitely not good enough yet to be killing the boss. And that can be 2-3 turned without her.

No one can replace Jill in 3-6. No one can replace Jill in 3-12. No one can replace Jill in 3-13. If she does get the Boots--since it saves a turn from 3-13 to do so--no one can replace Jill in Part 4.

Jill can be replaced in all of these maps, just with potentially less reliable results. Being the only one with wings doesn't mean she's the only one who can perform well. 3-6 and 3-13 aren't even heavily move-centric like the GM maps are.

Why is a unit that only has a significant unique contribution in 1 chapter and a minor contribution in the next chapter better than a unit who has unique contributions in 1 chapter on Part 1, 3 chapters on Part 3 and every Part 4 chapter (assuming she gets the Boots)? I just really find it peculiar that all of Jill's contributions get ignored so consistently.

Because uniqueness is not valuable in and of itself. If it were, the Herons would be at the top for being the only unit in any given map they participate in with their abilities.

let me rephrase the question:

why is she not in top tier?

Because that didn't seem completely agreed upon.

jill being above haar makes this tier list meaningless to everyone actually playing this game

When I tried to make this list more useful to people playing the game, the response was not very flattering.

Is there anyone else who actually thinks Jill(T) > Haar?

[dondon151]

Because that didn't seem completely agreed upon.

i'm pretty sure that just about everyone who argued for jill and jill (T) to go up in the first place agreed that jill (T) should go up to top tier.

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

Having Jill go over Haar seems pretty dumn. Yes, Jill has the most unique contributions while Haar/Titania can replace Haar/Titania. You could argue that she should be above them but seriously, to me it seems more like this:

Haar

Titania

Jill

because while Jill has more unique contributions, The ones Haar and Titania share are that much better. Last time I checked, we are not dropping Seth from the top spot of FE8 just because all he can do (expect exactly 3 turns) can be done by Franz/Vanessa. Yeah, Haar's god mode isnt unique god mode but its still god mode

Edited October 11, 2013 by Sho.M.the.Fallen

[Snowy_One]

Not to mention Jill's specialties require far more work than Haar or Titania to get up and running. Something like that should be, at least, considered instead of just thrown out the door because 'OMG LESS TURNS!'

[-Cynthia-]

Jill(T) should be above Volug I say. Aside from 1-8, there are no chapters that they share where Volug wins and he has only one chapter before she joins. That's a pretty huge difference, although this gets back to the Volug not actually being a Top tier unit deal.

Edited October 11, 2013 by -Cynthia-