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Colonel M

Getting a Tier List on this bad boy

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I volunteer, I guess, to do one myself. Shouldn't be all that difficult, as I know where most people will go. I'll get it up in a day or two, but otherwise assume the obvious: Efficiency, HM, etc. Keep in mind there will be some errors, so just be prepared to jump the gun.

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Since 6 out of this game's 20 maps, about a third of it, consists of the route split, I think it's appropriate to make a tier list for each route. This allows to calculate in differences between supporters more easily as well as not having those dirty [Eir/Eph] tags behind units.

Here's a quickly drawn up start. Sorry to steal work out of your hands. Feel free to point out inconsistencies.

WRT +/- utility: performance over the whole game is weighed, as otherwise we are reflecting a 100% efficiency playthrough, and not the actual value of a unit throughout the game. However, a time where you are bad weighs less against a unit if your good part is before your bad part.

EIRIKA

-Seth-

Seth

-Top-

Franz

Vanessa

Colm

Moulder

-High-

Eirika

Gerik

Tethys

Kyle

Natasha

Lute

Artur

Forde

-Upper Mid-

Saleh

Ephraim

Joshua

Innes

Garcia

Duessel

Cormag

-Lower Mid-

Tana

Myrrh

Gilliam

Dozla

Ross

Neimi

-Low-

Knoll

L'Arachel

Rennac

-Bottom-

Syrene

Marisa

Ewan

Amelia

EPHRAIM ROUTE

-Seth-

Seth

-Top-

Franz

Duessel

Ephraim

Vanessa

Colm

Moulder

-High-

Cormag

Gerik

Tethys

Kyle

Natasha

Lute

Artur

Forde

-Upper Mid-

Joshua

Eirika

Garcia

-Lower Mid-

Tana

Myrrh

Saleh

Gilliam

Dozla

Ross

Neimi

-Low-

Knoll

L'Arachel

Rennac

Innes

-Bottom-

Syrene

Marisa

Ewan

Amelia

Edited by Mekkah

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It's hard to dispute Seth as #1 in the game, but I question his AS and durability issues later on keeping him a tier above everybody else [Especially since Franz can compare to him fairly quickly]

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I think L'Arachel is more of a Lower tier character than a Bottom for staff utility alone,she has decent offense, good Mov and pretty good supports, but I might be kind of biased. I'd put her at the bottom of Low personally.

Eph route Duessel seems a little high. He's good of course, but people like Kyle have been better in chapters beforehand, have supports already built with generally better options, and a freshly promoted Kyle is probably about equal to a base level Duessel. I'd persoanlly drop Duessel in between Kyle and Forde.

Edited by -Cynthia-

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When given equal kills (and not more, as Seth can get easily), Seth's durability lead never really disappears. As for offense, his atk always remains on par. Franz DAs a few more Mercs later on or something...bleh. By that time there's also more weapons available for fixing that if it's necessary. I think this one is a judgement call at best.

I think L'Arachel is more of a Lower tier character than a Bottom for staff utility alone,she has decent offense, good Mov and pretty good supports, but I might be kind of biased. I'd put her at the bottom of Low personally.

I can see Neimi dropping to below her. Dozla has something resembling durability, and I've personally found Knoll's insta-summons (and also healing, though at E-level) extremely very super duper fucking useful for the limited time they're around.

There's probably quite a few comparisons between Eph route Duessel and Kyle/Forde/even Franz running around. I can't be assed to make one now, but I'm pretty sure Duessel has both beat. Remember he also has a superior affinity.

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Why is Colm top? I hardly find him useful 'cept for picking stuff.

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He's not top. He's high. His combat has proven to be on par with/better than Gerik/Joshua as long as he gets Moulder/Kyle supports (Neimi, even better, but Neimi is retarded). Lockpicking is icing on the cake. Especially Ch7/Ch8 items are great: Energy Ring, Angelic Robe, Elysian Whip, Silver Sword.

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Ok, Kyle vs. Duessel, end of chapter 10 after you get Duessel and Knight Crest #2

/8 Duessel(Steel Lance) 41 HP 27 Mt 12 AS 17 Def 9 Res 32 Avo

20/1 Kyle(GK) (B Ephraim C Colm Steel Lance) 42 HP 30 Mt 15 AS 17 Def 7 Res 49 Avo

I'll admit Duessel will bridge the gap some once his supports kick in, but he's losing by 3 Mt. 3 AS, and 17 Avo, which is pretty big considering Kyle's giving out support bonuses earlier and has been good for several chapters beforehand. Duessel is kinda slow to be so high...

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5x, 8, 9, 10 = 4 maps. Kyle got 3-4 levels in all of them?

13/1 FEA!Kyle (B Ephraim, C Colm)

Brass Knuckles: 15.5 atk, 11.8 AS, 38.0 hit, 11.7 crit - - 43.0 avo, 33.9 hp, 14.8 def, 5.4 res, 14.4 critavo

--/8 Duessel

Brass Knuckles: 17.0 atk, 12.0 AS, 27.8 hit, 5.8 crit - - 32.0 avo, 41.0 hp, 17.0 def, 9.0 res, 8.0 critavo

+ Duessel has higher weapon levels

Edited by Mekkah

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True that Duessel has higher weapon levels, but weapon levels aren't particularly hard to raise. And even if my level estimation of Kyle was generous,though you have to low man in 5x and there's plenty of XP in the other chapters, he will grow much faster than Duessel to make up the gap if underleveled.

In the end I dont think a character with 12 base speed at --/8 is the third best character in the game. You put Gilliam in the lower tiers, likely for his speed issues, so it doesn't make sense for Duessel to be so high.

Edited by -Cynthia-

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wait, Eph route Marisa>Neimi? wat

No really. It's no mystery that Neimi sucks. Even then I question bottom tier suck or even her being worse than Gilliam, but we'll get to that later. I have no idea wtf Eph. Route Marisa is doing outside of bottom, anyway.

In all the time that Neimi has been present in Eph's route, I doubt she's been a determent for the entire time she's played. Even if killing one unit a turn>Nothing, at least she's still contributing something to the team once she bypasses her epic suck phase whereas Marisa never is.

Then when Marisa joins Neimi will have such a huge level lead on her it won't be funny. Durability wise Neimi is far superior as she can actually kill things without being raped back. If Marisa even tries to see any action, she's likely a goner. Then we have Neimi promoting soon [if she's not already], at which point she gains melee range, move, and rescue capabilities. Granted she's at E swords, but her actual existing str [Marisa needs to be 20/5 to beat 20/1 Neimi in str, and that's before Neimi's epic Colm support which she will certainly get if she's being played, due to it being lolfast as well as giving Colm the earlygame offensive boost he needs.

Marisa's supports are trash. Tana sucks, Tethys doesn't want her [Let's guard a unit with crappy durability with a unit with crappy durability! That's master tactics for ya!] Gerik will have built up a Joshua/Tethys support by now, If Josh wants a crappy WindxIce affinity he'll support Natasha which he can get waaaay sooner, and Colm is also full by now. Even if we do favor her and give her Tethys/Gerik support, her durability is still rather bleh and she's still getting raepd hardcorez by Neimi in offense, and she'll get raped harder once Neimi picks up Steel Swords, which only takes her 15 rounds of combat with Iron [she'll likely double most crap]. Basically, Neimi can actually become something resembling a solid unit whereas Marisa kinda sucks throughout: Even when she promotes, she's still losing to Neimi offensively. Never mind that Colm's loving the uber early +3 atk he's getting [lol only 33 turns to A, and an auto-C]

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...Well, that sucks. You want to keep with it Mekkah or you want my post edited? Obviously I'm cool with the former.

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In the end I dont think a character with 12 base speed at --/8 is the third best character in the game.

You haven't played enough FE7-8 then. 14 AS basically doubles anything that's not merc/myrmidon/promoted/boss, which makes up a vast majority of the enemies in the game.

From my debate with Inui (aka brawlchamp)

I made a detailed listing of the ratio of enemies Duessel either doubled or realistically OHKOed to total enemies, give or take some reinforcements, just to show how much he doubles.

Chapter 10: 25/28 (89%)

Chapter 11: 26/32 (81%)

Chapter 12: 39/48 (81%)

Chapter 13: 41/54 (76%) [94% if Duessel has 13 spd]

Chapter 14: 36/42 (86%)

Chapter 15: 53/69 (77%) [81% if Duessel has 13 spd]

Let's assume by now that Duessel's gotten 3 levels (a mere 0.5 per chapter) and thus has a 90% chance at 13 spd.

Chapter 16: 25/35 (71%)

Chapter 17: 35/60 (58%)

Chapter 18: 37/42 (88%)

Chapter 19: 10/30 (30%) [66% if we exclude Heroes and Swordmasters since few people have 20-22 AS]

4 Chapters of almost entirely promoted enemies could probably get Duessel 3 levels (1.33 per chapter), which gives him an 81% chance at 14 spd.

Chapter 20: 37/50 (74%)

Final: 35/59 (59%)

Recall that this is just doubling/OHKO percentages, and doesn't translate directly into ORKO percentages. For instance, suppose Duessel has 50 crit on average. We can then suppose he crits about half the enemies he cannot ORKO normally. Now look at what that does to his percentages:

89-> 94%

81-> 90%

86-> 93%

76-> 88%

58 -> 79%

Just through using killer axes on stuff he cannot double/OHKO, Duessel can ORKO more than 4/5 of enemies in a map on average, which is valid even considering that killer weapons are only buyable in chapter 14. There's also some consideration for brave weapons (brave axe acquired in chp 17), reavers (buyable in chp 19) and S rank weapons, particularly the Garm (acquired in 14A/15B). Even simply sharing some of those resources, his killing %ages can easily jumpt to say, 85%, or 17 of every 20 enemy if you like fractions.

On the durability end, here's a tidbit from my debate vs Reaver.

Let's look at the durability of other members of the team in say, chp 12:

Duessel base lv: 41 hp, 17 def, 9 res, 32 avo

Seth lv --/7 (B Franz, C Garcia): 35 hp, 15 def, 12 res, 54 avo

Ephraim lv 15/0 (B Kyle, B Forde): 32 hp, 12 def, 6 res,13 res, 61 avo

Artur lv 14/0 (B Lute, C Joshua): 26 hp, 6 def, 15 res, 43 avo

Franz lv 18/0 (B Seth, B Forde): 34 hp, 13 def, 7 res, 51 avo

Joshua lv 16/0 (C Artur, C Natasha): 33 hp, 8 def, 5 res, 53 avo

Garcia lv 16/0 (A Ross, C Seth): 38 hp, 8 def, 3 res, 46 avo

Tana lv 12/0 (C Ephraim): 25 hp, 8 def, 9 res, 51 avo

Vanessa lv 17/0 (C Moulder, C Lute): 25 hp, 11 def, 11 res, 62 avo

Kyle lv 15/0 (B Ephraim, B Forde): 33 hp, 13 def, 5 res, 45 avo

Gilliam lv 15/0 (C Garcia, C Moulder): 35 hp, 16 def, 6 res, 28 avo

Out of all these units, Duessel has the highest hp and def on the team, and the fourth highest res. The only units that stand to be more durable than him are avo demons.

I calculated the average enemy attack to be 945/48 = 19.69, and this is factoring in +6 atk to mage enemies since they target res. That means whoever I compare Duessel has to be able to withstand anywhere from 16-43 attacks without dying to compare to his durability. Pit Vanessa against an iron lance cav (18 atk, 96 hit) for 20 attacks, and her odds of dying are about 22% to Duessel's ~0-1.7%. Or, take Ephraim vs Duessel against a bael (26 atk, 80 hit). In 5 hits, Ephraim faces ~4.4% odds of death while Duessel only faces ~2.1%. And then there's bonewalkers, mercs, certain cavs and gargoyles and pirates Duessel's completely invincible against that not even Gilliam is. Finally, Duessel is the only current member on the team with 3 weapon types vs most people who have 1, so in about 2/3rds of cases, his avo jumps 15 points relative to who he's being compared to.

Case in point, Duessel has arguably the best concrete durability in the game. 17 base def is high enough that few enemies can even damage him, and if they do, they're simply poking at his massive hp. Then he has above average res, full WTC, an affinity that gives full defensive benefits and partners who give him avo. The guy's a walking brick wall.

Edited by Vykan12

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In all the time that Neimi has been present in Eph's route, I doubt she's been a determent for the entire time she's played. Even if killing one unit a turn>Nothing, at least she's still contributing something to the team once she bypasses her epic suck phase whereas Marisa never is.

Neimi never bypasses "epic suck". Her damage output is worse than every other unit's, except against fliers. And she only hits something once per turn, whereas I could have fielded any other unit like Gilliam or something and did more damage on player phase, and then like three times as much on enemy phase. She can contribute some offensive damage...but so can anyone. And we have to shield her, which you didn't take into the equation.

Then when Marisa joins Neimi will have such a huge level lead on her it won't be funny. Durability wise Neimi is far superior as she can actually kill things without being raped back. If Marisa even tries to see any action, she's likely a goner. Then we have Neimi promoting soon [if she's not already], at which point she gains melee range, move, and rescue capabilities. Granted she's at E swords, but her actual existing str [Marisa needs to be 20/5 to beat 20/1 Neimi in str, and that's before Neimi's epic Colm support which she will certainly get if she's being played, due to it being lolfast as well as giving Colm the earlygame offensive boost he needs.

You talk about stats, but I see no numbers? First, neither are reaching level 20 for promo, that just makes them suck for way too long. Well, you can if you like.

10/2 Neimi (A Colm)

Iron Sword: 19.0 atk, 13.6 AS, 21.0 crit - - 43.7 avo, 25.1 hp, 8.6 def, 9.8 res

Iron Bow: 20.0 atk

5/0 Marisa

Iron Sword: 12.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 5.8 crit - - 35.0 avo, 23.0 hp, 4.0 def, 3.0 res

I'll admit Neimi wins here, but Marisa is going to grow four-five times as fast, and building supports...

Marisa's supports are trash. Tana sucks

top of Lower Mid != suck

Tethys doesn't want her [Let's guard a unit with crappy durability with a unit with crappy durability! That's master tactics for ya!]

supporting the two != Marisa guarding Tethys. I have no idea why you think the two are the same. Anyway, Tethys wants Marisa because that way the girls form a triangle with Gerik and they can go off somewhere without breaking the group's bonuses.

Gerik will have built up a Joshua/Tethys support by now

Ephraim route = Marisa joins right before Gerik. End of Ch12 vs start of Ch13.

Basically, Neimi can actually become something resembling a solid unit whereas Marisa kinda sucks throughout

10/4 Neimi (A Colm)

Killing Edge: 23.9 atk, 14.8 AS, 51.5 crit - - 47.1 avo, 26.1 hp, 8.9 def, 10.5 res

10/1 Marisa (B Gerik/C Tethys)

Killing Edge: 19.5 atk, 16.0 AS, 59.6 crit - - 58.5 avo, 30.8 hp, 8.8 def, 7.2 res

And now it's surprisingly more even, I'd even say Marisa is winning because defense > offense, though the atk gap and bows has to be considered...

Neimi above Marisa for now on Ephraim list, but next time more numbers instead please.

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Before I get too far and make a fool of myself, why Eirika > Garcia, as far as Eirika route goes?

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Some reasons for Eirika > Garcia without digging too deep:

- 3 short maps of availability

- Faster support with Seth, and a horde of other units wanting to support her

- Rapier (negates Garcia's atk lead quite often), Sieglinde (negates Garcia's atk lead for endgame)

- Free promotion (though offset by it being late)

- Doubling

- Dodging

- Doesn't take a unit slot

There's Garcia's concrete hp/def, better affinity and earlier promotion to pit against it, though.

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Some reasons for Eirika > Garcia without digging too deep:

- 3 short maps of availability

- Faster support with Seth, and a horde of other units wanting to support her

- Rapier (negates Garcia's atk lead quite often), Sieglinde (negates Garcia's atk lead for endgame)

- Free promotion (though offset by it being late)

- Doubling

- Dodging

- Doesn't take a unit slot

There's Garcia's concrete hp/def, better affinity and earlier promotion to pit against it, though.

- K conceded.

- Garcia also has a fast support with Ross, who isn't a terrible unit since he gains CEXP like a madman (~33 per hit?). He's rarely being ORKOed and the Hatchet helps accomodate his durability. Granted, Ross needs a bit of work, but it's not as... terrible as thought out.

- Garcia also has Hammer and Halberd to compensate for the Rapier part, and Garm has +5 Spd. 20/10 Garcia has max Str (25) and Garm has zomg 20 Mt. Eirika can't cap Str (around Lv 7 Eirika has 16 Str, just to show) and Sieglinde has 16 Mt +5 Str. Garcia is doing much better in damage output than Eirika except when she doubles.

- Promotion should be a non-issue for Garcia. Ross can easily go Pirate and knock that competition out. His only competition left is Joshua, Marisa, and Gerik. Garcia, if anything, has dibs on it sooner than those 3 at the very least. Also, late promotion can screw around with Eirika because Garcia can build up on a level lead, paling Eirika a bit.

- There definitely are instances Garcia won't always double. He has about 11 Spd at Level 5 and 12 at Level 10. Two ways to compensate it late-game: Brave Axe in C17, and Garm which came in C15. Speedwings also lack competition, so it's not out of the question for him to obtain it. He only needs it in some situations though, since Vykan mentioned about 14 AS doubles the vast majority of things. He can't reach this until late-game, but his single hits are hard to ignore.

- Dodging is also pretty easy to compensate. Garcia's Fire / Fire support offers +5 Avoid per level, and Thunder, Garcia's second affinity, can offer him Avoid as well. Seth, though the movement range is hard to consider, can at least use a B support since Franz nor Eirika give him Avoid and Garcia at least matches in Atk and Avoid, so the difference lost is... 1 Def and some Crit. Garcia, C5-8, can at least gain WTA quite often against the heavy lance users. There are some Iron Sword Mercs / Cavalry and Axe Fighters, but there's also lolDiers / Armor Knights / Cavalry with Lances to consider.

*Sigh*. Enemy stats (which are somewhere...) would've helped, especially in C9-14 for both routes (which aren't on the website IIRC).

Edited by Colonel M

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You haven't played enough FE7-8 then. 14 AS basically doubles anything that's not merc/myrmidon/promoted/boss, which makes up a vast majority of the enemies in the game.

I would argue that the offensive lead that most other characters have over Duessel (via doubling various enemies), means more than Duessel''s largely superfluous durability lead. At a certain point, durability begins not to matter when you're comparing 4.4% chance death to 2.1% chance death, it's a very small difference at this point. I would take somone like Kyle or Ephraim being able to double more enemies over more durability, since Kyle and Ephraim's chances of dying are both very minimal.

You also said 14 AS doubles basically everything- Duessel has 12 base AS, so by your logic he'll still have trouble doubling enemies that aren't mercs/myrms/bosses.

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You also said 14 AS doubles basically everything- Duessel has 12 base AS, so by your logic he'll still have trouble doubling enemies that aren't mercs/myrms/bosses.

It doubles basically everything for the entirety of the game. Duessel joins in chp 11, at which point a lower AS value is needed to double most generics.

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Gerik will have built up a Joshua/Tethys support by now,

How is this possible? On Eph route, Gerik joins after Marisa does, so he can't possibly have a support already built up. On Eir route, they join on the same chapter (Gerik gets recruited by Innes/Tethys, Gerik proceeds to recruit Marisa) so Gerik cant have a support built up by then either.

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For Duessel, he either 1HKOs (Mainly frail guys like Myrms) or severely weakens them. Weakening is probably the best use a pre-promo can have unless they rock later on.

EDIT: I'm trying to do HM enemy stats but I'm only at Chapter 1...

EDIT2: Does anyone know the exp formula for HM?

Edited by Joshybear25

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Should Seth really have his own tier? I calculated his stats at level 7, and Kyle's (Who's more than a tier below him) stats at level 6 as both GK and Pallie. GK Kyle 3RKOs Seth. Pallie Kyle 4RKOs Seth. Seth 6RKOs either.

These are my calculations. I know they're kinda messy, but if you want to check them, feel free. I rounded .6 and above up, .5 and below down.

Kyle lvl 6 Great Knight

HP 44.1

STR 20.5

SKL 14.6

SPD 16.6

LUK 9.8

DEF 15.7

RES 5.8

HIT 115

ATK 27

AVO 44

DEF 16

CRIT 7

DODGE 10

AS 17

Kyle lvl 6 Paladin

HP 43.1

STR 19.5

SKL 14.6

SPD 15.6

LUK 9.8

DEF 15.7

RES 5.8

HIT 115

ATK 26

AVO 42

DEF 16

CRIT 7

DODGE 10

AS 16

Seth lvl 7 Paladin

HP 35.4

STR 17

SKL 15.7

SPD 14.7

LUK 14.5

DEF 13.4

RES 9.8

HIT 124

ATK 24

AVO 43

DEF 13

CRIT 13

DODGE 14

AS 15

GK Kyle

72 Hit

84.6 True Hit

14 DMG

0 Crit

3HKOs Seth

3RKOs Seth

P Kyle

72 Hit

84.6 True Hit

13 DMG

0 Crit

3HKOs Seth

4RKOs Seth

Seth v GK Kyle

80 Hit

92.2 True Hit

8 DMG

3 Crit

6HKOs GK Kyle

6RKOs GK Kyle

Seth v P Kyle

82 Hit

93.7 True Hit

8 DMG

3 Crit

6HKOs P Kyle

6RKOs P Kyle

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These units aren't judged on how well they perform against each other, but how well they perform in the game. Seth never fights Kyle in the game. In addition, Seth wouldn't only have a lead of one puny level. He starts about 16 levels and a promotion ahead, plus Seth's Ch1-Ch7 has more EXP than Kyle's Ch5x on bosskills alone.

Everyone is like three or four tiers apart from Seth in the beginning, and they climb up slowly, then they're around the same for the rest. A gap of one tier, even between him and the next best unit (Franz) is perfectly justified.

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While they won't ever fight each other, it shows that Kyle does better against non-magical enemies, and even against enemies that use magic, he has extra HP. And despite the fact that 1-7 has more experience than 5x, Seth gains EXP more slowly and he'll probably be used less since you need to train your other units. Kyle is in a chapter where only two other units are going to be battling. Kyle at one level below as a GK has +9 HP +3 STR -1 SKL +2 SPD +5 DEF -4 RES. Even if Kyle was six levels below Seth he'd have +5 HP +1 STR -3 SKL = SPD +3 DEF -5 RES. At 20/0 Kyle has +2 HP +1 STR -4 SKL -2 SPD +1 DEF -6 RES. Now, while I'll admit 20/6 Kyle and --/7 Seth is unlikely, 20/1or2 Kyle and --/7 Seth is something that happens to me on almost every playthrough. I don't see how Seth is more than a tier above Kyle.

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While they won't ever fight each other, it shows that Kyle does better against non-magical enemies, and even against enemies that use magic, he has extra HP.

Inconsequential since neither will be even close to dying.

And despite the fact that 1-7 has more experience than 5x, Seth gains EXP more slowly and he'll probably be used less since you need to train your other units.

Why would he be used less? Having him kill his fair share of units will not screw over your team at all.

Kyle is in a chapter where only two other units are going to be battling.

And he's arguably worse than those two, since he can't double reliably.

Kyle at one level below as a GK has +9 HP +3 STR -1 SKL +2 SPD +5 DEF -4 RES. Even if Kyle was six levels below Seth he'd have +5 HP +1 STR -3 SKL = SPD +3 DEF -5 RES. At 20/0 Kyle has +2 HP +1 STR -4 SKL -2 SPD +1 DEF -6 RES. Now, while I'll admit 20/6 Kyle and --/7 Seth is unlikely, 20/1or2 Kyle and --/7 Seth is something that happens to me on almost every playthrough. I don't see how Seth is more than a tier above Kyle.

OK? Those leads don't matter, since both Seth and Kyle can one round nearly everything and are almost never in danger of dying. Also, Seth has +2 move on Great Knight Kyle. It should also be noted that Kyle comes with the same base speed as Garcia, but 6 chapters later. He's going to have some doubling issues early on.

So, Seth is your best character for most of the game, until promotion, which is probably around Chapters 13-16~, and then he's on par with the rest of your team. How does he not deserve a tier above the likes of Kyle and Franz?

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