Getting a Tier List on this bad boy

[Rewjeo]

Uh, worse HP STR SPD and DEF for slightly better SKL and better RES is not "on par". Top of Top wouldn't bother me, but being best for about half and then becoming worse than anyone who's being used doesn't give you your own tier. If he's used much in the beginning, then Kyle and Forde will be better than most of your team, and even if you don't use Seth, they won't exactly be the worst. And if you assume that you've had everyone who can go paladin, and they're all at level 10 (Amelia probably won't reach this without a lot of abuse, but I'll throw her in anyways.) and you want to take only one for whatever is left of the game, well here are the stats.

Seth Franz Kyle Forde Amelia

HP 38 44 46 46 40

STR 18 19 21 18 18

SKL 17 17 16 21 21

SPD 16 22 17 20 22

DEF 15 15 17 15 14

RES 11 8 7 9 12

LUK 15 13 11 15 24

Even if you compare him to the worst for each stat, he has -2 HP, = STR, +1 SKL, -1 SPD, +1 DEF, +4 RES, +4 LUK. Even against Amelia who's WAY below him on the tier list, he has -2 HP, = STR, -4 SKL, -6 SPD, +1 DEF, -1 RES, and -9 LUK. Now, while she won't get there, she's no better than the others who can get there easily. Great early-game (which is limited do to the fact that you need to train other units), decent to good midgame, and bad (Crap compared to Kyle, Forde, and Franz) late game shouldn't give him an entire tier over everyone. Top of Top, maybe, but his own tier. I wouldn't say so.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Slize

[_____]

Uh, worse HP STR SPD and DEF for slightly better SKL and better RES is not "on par". Top of Top wouldn't bother me, but being best for about half and then becoming worse than anyone who's being used doesn't give you your own tier. If he's used much in the beginning, then Kyle and Forde will be better than most of your team, and even if you don't use Seth, they won't exactly be the worst. And if you assume that you've had everyone who can go paladin, and they're all at level 10 (Amelia probably won't reach this without a lot of abuse, but I'll throw her in anyways.) and you want to take only one for whatever is left of the game, well here are the stats.

Seth Franz Kyle Forde Amelia

HP 38 44 46 46 40

STR 18 19 21 18 18

SKL 17 17 16 21 21

SPD 16 22 17 20 22

DEF 15 15 17 15 14

RES 11 8 7 9 12

LUK 15 13 11 15 24

Even if you compare him to the worst for each stat, he has -2 HP, = STR, +1 SKL, -1 SPD, +1 DEF, +4 RES, +4 LUK. Even against Amelia who's WAY below him on the tier list, he has -2 HP, = STR, -4 SKL, -6 SPD, +1 DEF, -1 RES, and -9 LUK. Now, while she won't get there, she's no better than the others who can get there easily. Great early-game (which is limited do to the fact that you need to train other units), decent to good midgame, and bad to crap late game shouldn't give him an entire tier over everyone. Top of Top, maybe, but his own tier. I wouldn't say so.

Chilling yarn, comrade.

I like how you disregard that any type of statistical advantage any characters have over Seth near the end of the game is overkill, as Seth is able to do the exact same thing as any of them.

So, let's see...

Amazing Earlygame (Limited, you say? Giving him the same amount of kills as everyone else does not mean that you're having him solo maps, though he is easily able to do that.).

Amazing Midgame (Still trouncing 95% of the cast, even if it is a smaller margin).

Good Endgame (On par with everyone else. Any statistical leads don't matter as Seth is able to kill anything anyone else can, and he'll still never be in danger of dying ever. The only things that might trouble him are Dracozombies. Yeah, all three of them.)

[Mekkah]

You're just looking at raw stats, not performance.

Compare Seth to Kyle between Ch1 and Ch7. Seth is your best unit by miles, Kyle doesn't exist.

How about between Ch8 and Ch13? Seth is far superior until Kyle promotes.

Now both promote, and Kyle still isn't winning convincingly due to Seth's level lead.

Add that Kyle needed a Knight Crest, and Seth >>>

And despite the fact that 1-7 has more experience than 5x, Seth gains EXP more slowly and he'll probably be used less since you need to train your other units.

No, I was taking Seth's promotion into account. The bosses alone give Seth like 3 levels, which is about the maximum Kyle can scrape from 5x.

For bold: lurk more please. Just go find my debating guide somewhere, I can't be assed to find it now.

[Colonel M]

And in comparison, Kyle is pretty average on his team compared to Seth which WTFRAEPS on his team. With route splitting into account, worst Kyle might have is a Forde support. On Ephraim route he can have two supports, but even so Seth has good options: Franz, Eirika, and Garcia aren't terrible stretches and I guess there's Natasha and Cormag if you're weird. Of course being a pre-promote has the advantage of being a low resource unit (meaning that he doesn't hog a Knight Crest), and you get one of the best characters in the game. It takes quite a bit of time before Seth comes remotely close to being comparable to other units.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rewjeo]

I don't have him solo maps. The fact is that it is better to help other units than to give a unit who is "going to be good all game" experience that he doesn't need at the time. Besides that, if he's only doing as much as anyone else, then his earlygame isn't so amazing, is it? And if any advantage anyone has is overkill, then shouldn't everyone who doesn't suck be in at least Top as well? In fact, anyone can kill anything Seth can as long as they aren't way underleveled. The fact is that some units do it better. And 10-11 chapters isn't really that long of a time. Top of top really doesn't bother me, but I have yet to be honestly convinced that he is really deserving of his own tier.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Slize

[Colonel M]

I don't have him solo maps. The fact is that it is better to help other units than to give a unit who is "going to be good all game" experience that he doesn't need at the time.

Neither do we. But he has this playing to his advantage, does he not?

Besides that, if he's only doing as much as anyone else, then his earlygame isn't so amazing, is it?

Not true. Earlygame Eirika might have trouble ORKOing except in some situations, there's Ross that has trouble 2RKOing, Garcia can ORKO but sometimes 2RKOes, Franz can't double too well yet, Gilliam is slow but he takes little damage, etc. etc.

Seth can rescue units and match Garcia's AS. That's how fucking awesome he is at this point. On top of that, he does have overkill offense, meaning he doesn't need to be fed CEXP to be fixed like everyone around him. This makes him quite RNG-proof. And his support options, as said, aren't limited at all. He has Anima, which everyone would be scraping for. He's a team player through and through.

If the argument is "ohnoes he ORKOes and doesn't distribute CEXP well!", then have him rescue some useless slump and drop his AS. Or equip Iron. Or Slim.

And if any advantage anyone has is overkill, then shouldn't everyone who doesn't suck be in at least Top as well? In fact, anyone can kill anything Seth can as long as they aren't way underleveled. The fact is that some units do it better. And 10-11 chapters isn't really that long of a time. Top of top really doesn't bother me, but I have yet to be honestly convinced that he is really deserving of his own tier.

This isn't quite true, as some units around him do have issues when they join. There is no issue with Seth. All you're doing is solidifying Seth staying there just because he requires little to no work in order to be efficient. Everyone else below him does. And 10-11 Chapters may not seem like a long time, but until then Seth is kicking everyone's ass through the roof. And by that point, if Seth was even comparable to his team at that point, again you're only helping Seth's case.

[Mekkah]

okay, you asked for it ~_~

just replace Kyle with Franz

6.3 Hogging EXP

This point is often used against Seth, Titania and several FE10 units, especially Sothe. They "hog EXP", according to some, and count this as a negative. This couldn't be more wrong - if anything, they are doing the opposite.

Let's say we are comparing Seth and Franz. Seth is a L1 Paladin, while Franz a L1 Cavalier. Some people say that Seth should not get many kills - after all, other units gain more EXP and need this EXP more than Seth. What those making this argument do not realize is that this is not a negative, but more of a positive for Seth. Think about it. Seth "not needing EXP" cannot be a negative for him. It's like saying that Guy not needing a Speedwing while Oswin would like one is a negative for Guy.

Gaining less EXP is not a negative either, it's an effect caused by having a higher level to begin with. Seth pretty much comes with 1900 more EXP than Franz. Seth's lower EXP gains only affect his own growth. The fact that he doesn't gain as much EXP as Franz does is represented by Seth not having improved as much as Franz by giving them the same amount of kills. When both haven't killed anything, Seth's stats are superior. When Franz has killed 10 enemies, he is probably around L4 or L5, but he's still worse than a base level Seth (with 30 EXP or so). Same after 20, 30, 40, etc enemies. Only when Franz is around L18 while Seth is L2 or L3, Franz is starting to become comparable, while he was definitely worse by a lot.

L1 Seth is as good as a L18 Franz off the bat.

Franz isn't as good as Seth until he hits L18.

After reading this, some would still insist that it's better that Seth does not get any kills. However, that is basically handing Seth another advantage: it's showing that he has a secondary method of being used, and apparently this second method is better (I would argue it is not, but that is another story). If "2nd method Seth" > "1st method Seth", and "1st method Seth" > Franz, then it logically follows that "2nd method Seth" >Franz as well. Of course, it won't show that Seth is better than Franz in the stats now when they are compared when Franz has caught up, but the EXP that Seth would have gotten now went to other units on the team, which is another advantage.

Or, in other words, let's compare three teams, and distribute 100 kills among them. Let's say 5 kills is a level on average, except for Seth, who would need 25.

Team A has Seth, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and each is given equal amount of kills, so 25.

Team B has Seth, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and Seth is only getting 4 kills, while the other 21 are given away to others, giving each of those 25+7=32 kills.

Team C has Franz, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and each is given equal amount of kills, so 25.

Team A: L2 Seth, L7 Arthur, L6 Lute, L6 Vanessa.

Team B: L1 Seth, L8 Arthur, L7 Lute, L7 Vanessa

Team C: L6 Franz, L7 Arthur, L6 Lute, L6 Vanessa

Clearly Team A and B are both much stronger than team C, and both A and B have Seth. The non-Seth units on team A are equal to the non-Franz units on team C, and the non-Seth units on team B are clearly beating those of team C.

This argument goes for any prepromote, or any unit that gains less EXP...or actually, for any unit, really. This even goes for FE6/FE7 Marcus, though it should be added that those have a negative effect on the EXP rank. It also goes for units that hit L20 before promotion, such as Eirika and Ephraim.

[_____]

I don't have him solo maps. The fact is that it is better to help other units than to give a unit who is "going to be good all game" experience that he doesn't need at the time.

See Mekkah's EXP Hogging thing.

Besides that, if he's only doing as much as anyone else, then his earlygame isn't so amazing, is it?

When did I ever say he was only doing as much as anyone else? Early game, people actually have problems ORKOing either due to lacking offensive might (Franz, Eirika, Vanessa, Colm, Neimi) or just not doubling (Gilliam, Ross, Garcia, Lute very early on). Seth, however, can double everything, is never in danger of dying, and even has 8 move to boot. How can you possibly say that he's not amazing?

And if any advantage anyone has is overkill, then shouldn't everyone who doesn't suck be in at least Top as well? In fact, anyone can kill anything Seth can as long as they aren't way underleveled. The fact is that some units do it better. And 10-11 chapters isn't really that long of a time.

lol at 11 chapters not being a long time. That's half the game.

Look at Seth compared to Kyle throughout the entire game.

Prolouge - Chapter 8: lol

Chapter 9 - 14 Eirika: lol

Chapter 9 - 14 Ephraim: lol

Chapter 15: Desert. Kyle has the _same_ disadvantage, though, so it doesn't matter.

Chapters 16-Endgame: On par with Kyle.

Top of top really doesn't bother me, but I have yet to be honestly convinced that he is really deserving of his own tier.

You're supposed to convince us that he should be dropped.

We don't have to prove shit to you.

[DragonBladeSniper]

Hey why is Amelia lower than Ewan anyways? She comes in earlier and when it comes to such low leveled units, I think that should matter. If it's about Ewan staff utility, SO WHAT? There are loads more people who could heal better/faster. I also find that guiding rings are more precious than knight crests in this game to.

[Colonel M]

Hey why is Amelia lower than Ewan anyways? She comes in earlier and when it comes to such low leveled units, I think that should matter. If it's about Ewan staff utility, SO WHAT? There are loads more people who could heal better/faster. I also find that guiding rings are more precious than knight crests in this game to.

There's also Summon utility.

Problem is Amelia has to suffer the fact that she won't hit 10/20/20 by Endgame. Neither can Ewan, but hitting 10/10/1 is perfect. He requires the least of time for that reason. Now, they both suck. But one has two advantages: the first mentioned by you, and the second mentioned by I.

[Mekkah]

Also, Amelia builds up suckitude at fighting when Ewan isn't around. Ewan only has to suck at combat until he can promote to Summoner. From there, healing and summoning doesn't use stats whatsoever except minor things like Mag being used in amount of hp healed. Oh, and Ewan's 1-2 range is more accurate, so he doesn't need an enemy beaten within an inch of their life to be guaranteed to gain EXP; Javelin can miss, and if close-range can't kill, Amelia can't attack that enemy or she dies...and then there's the fact that if Amelia misses close range ever, she is also going to die.

If it's about Ewan staff utility, SO WHAT? There are loads more people who could heal better/faster.

There sure as hell are loads more people who can fight better/faster.

I also find that guiding rings are more precious than knight crests in this game to.

They are slightly so, but they can only realistically promote after the Secret Shop and the Master Seal have arrived, so it doesn't really matter anymore.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Mekkah

[DragonBladeSniper]

There's also Summon utility.

Problem is Amelia has to suffer the fact that she won't hit 10/20/20 by Endgame. Neither can Ewan, but hitting 10/10/1 is perfect. He requires the least of time for that reason. Now, they both suck. But one has two advantages: the first mentioned by you, and the second mentioned by I.

Summon utility huh? So you're saying that we will give Ewan one of the few guiding rings in the game (or waste money for one) and let him have completly horrible stats just to get a few summons? I wouldn't ever do that unless it was unranked honestly.

EDIT: @Mekkah Fine, you people win. XD

Edited June 15, 2009 by DragonBladeSniper

[Mekkah]

FE8 is always unranked. And yeah, we're going to have to do that, or else we're not using Ewan, right? I mean, what's the alternative Amelia is offering? Using a Knight Crest to have completely horrible stats just to get bad fighting to counteract Ewan's bad (but ranged) fighting, Summons and healing? I'll take the latter.

The point isn't that Ewan isn't bad - he's still Bottom Tier. It's that you're not showing anything that convinces me Amelia isn't worse.

Two double negatives in two sentences, bitches.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Mekkah

[Colonel M]

Just a question: is early promotion taken into consideration for Cormag's position?

Granted it sounds ridiculous, but chances are you're hitting Wyvern Knight anyway. Wyvern Lord offers no bonus to Spd for Swords: low rank nevertheless. Since Cormag mains Lances in his unpromoted class anyway, one could always slap an Axereaver and call it a day. He comes at Level 9 with a 45% Spd growth and 10 to start with. Obviously this means he won't double at times, but he doesn't have "stiff" competition for an Elysian Whip (IIRC he comes with one) and only needs 2 levels + promotion to hit the magic 14 AS number:

11/1 Cormag:

35 HP | 16 Str | 12 Skl | 14 Spd | 5 Luck | 13 (it's 12.5) Def | 3 Res | 11 Con

Steel Lance drops his AS to 12, but otherwise he can wield Javelins. Brave Lance and Short Spear drop his AS too, but w/e right?

Just wondering is all, before I go too far with an argument.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Mekkah]

Early promo was kept in the back of my mind for him, never really dug the numbers on this list.

Cormag is sitting quite pretty on Ephraim route, I think. He _could_ go against Colm, but Colm is a subjective matter. Kyle and Forde are rather difficult to match, if only because of Cormag starting behind in supports and having a bow weak. And then the top tier has pretty much untouchable people.

Eirika route, it's his only saving grace. Everyone above him has higher availability (Ephraim has 5x + 8, Cormag has 13 + 14). I'm considering for Artur and Lute to go down further...but that's still a long way down. Maybe he could go above Duessel if he's enough of a positive to outweigh Duessel's wins post-15, or if Tana's not positive enough between 9 and 13. I doubt Garcia is going below Cormag.

Too late in the night to really dig deep on this one, but those are my initial thoughts.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Mekkah

[Vykan12]

EDIT2: Does anyone know the exp formula for HM?

Check the site's calculation section. It is rather complicated, so you might want to eliminate some variables (thief bonus, for instance).

[Rewjeo]

When never said you had to prove anything to me, I just meant that I'll keep debating until I am convinced that I'm wrong. I never said that him being a high-level early on is a negative FOR HIM HIMSELF, but FE is a game in which you actually do more than send one unit up to do the whole game, and if you abuse him, your team is hurt. Therefor, it is a negative because only using Seth early on is bad for your team. Your team as a whole is more important than one unit individually. My argument is not that he's one-rounding everything. It's that if he's sent into the enemy he takes what could have been a lot of exp for someone who can actually become a very good unit by midgame, and makes into very little exp for someone who will be less useful by midgame unless he's way overused. Franz still has pretty darn good earlygame while Seth's is limited do to what I've said above, equal to better midgame than Seth, and better late game. And it isn't exactly impossible for someone to then take the superior unit in preference to Seth. Being overkill and therefor a potential threat to your overall team for half the game and then being replaced by superior units for the other half doesn't give you the right to your own tier that claims you are by far the best unit in the game.

[Colonel M]

To be frankly honest, I don't know how much more "proving" we have to do.

It's clear cut and simple: he's good. Period. So good that he doesn't need any level ups whatsoever and can still pwn by Mid Game. He's your best "emergency" unit with Rescuing, and him being RNG-proof only helps his case further and further.

Can you seriously tell me when Seth is a detriment to the team... ever? Without throwing the easy-to-counter "CEXP hog" argument?

I'll get to Cormag > Colm (Eph route) in a minute. I had to edit it becaues Cynthia made me feel creeped out.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Colonel M

[-Cynthia-]

^ I read that as "I'd hit Cormag"

[Colonel M]

^ I read that as "I'd hit Cormag"

...Creepy.

Anyway, here's what I got. So, let's just say Cormag gets his two levels on his starting chapter. If not, he'll promote about halfway through C12, so no biggie.

Colm here has the use of seeing through the fog, while Cormag here has the capability of flying and smashing shit before something terrible happens. He can sit on the water and chuck Javelins at the scary monsters, and his only two big fears are the Eye-thingys (Mogals) and the Bonewalkers with Bows. They shouldn't OHKO Cormag anyway.

C12 his combat utility is pretty good here. He's possibly getting a C Duessel by now and maybe getting started on Seth if possible. Fighters aren't difficult since by now we have AxeReavers and the monsters here are pretty lol. I guess again Bows hurt, but no matter.

C13 he can fly up to Selena and try to bash her down with a Horseslayer. Otherwise, dunno. Maybe he can't do this easily due to the Mages that surround her; however, he has the option to do so. Being able to save the villages also plays in his favor.

C14 is a "bash everything to pieces" chapter and Colm is probably busy picking chests, so Cormag here is pwning face. Not that the former isn't doing anything useful, he just isn't helping us beat the chapter faster.

C15 he has all the desert to his advantage, as his Mov range is appreciated here. Bows shouldn't be dangerous unless he's hanging around Valter, which he shouldn't.

And from there on, I don't think there's much more I need to say. Cormag is doubling about as much as Colm is and doing a bit more damage with Lances > Swords and Pierce (though small, it helps him). In fact, one thing that can be said about Colm's thieving utility is that keys are easy to get, and someone like Cormag who has good Mov and flying can easily get to these areas a bit faster than Colm.

If I need statistics, I can at least attempt to support some of it.

EDIT: Also Mekkah, what did you decide on Garcia > Eirika? Needing more evidence I'm guessing?

Edited June 16, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rewjeo]

Well, if you don't know how much more proving you need to do, then how about this:

Tell me every reason you can think of that Seth is so much better than everyone else. If it actually convinces me that he is deserving of his own tier, then yeah, I'll admit it and shut up as I am sure you all really want me to.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Slize

[Colonel M]

Well, if you don't know how much more proving you need to do, then how about this:

Tell me every reason you can think of that Seth is so much better than everyone else. If it actually convinces me that he is deserving of his own tier, then yeah, I'll admit it and shut up as I am sure you all really want me to.

Instead... I'd like to ask if you would so kindly show us.

[Rewjeo]

Well, fine. I guess I will. Clearly no one is going to change anyone's mind, and all of my other things I'd bring up have been mentioned. Good luck with Cormag>Colm. And yes, I really do mean it. I completely agree there.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Slize

[Mekkah]

Slize, you haven't addressed a single letter from my debating guide, and you're the one who is trying to make a change. The burden of proof is on you, not us.

[Rewjeo]

I promise that this will be my last post on the matter.

I'm not saying that you actually need to prove anything to me, I'm just saying that there's no point in continuing when we obviously aren't accomplishing anything worthwhile. It's quite obvious that I'm not going to get the change without some stroke of genius, and I don't think you'd be able to change my mind without one, either. So, yeah, I'll just shut up about this and let Seth keep his tier.