Getting a Tier List on this bad boy

[Vykan12]

Josh lv 20/3: 43 hp, 10 def, 6 res

Steel sword: 24 atk, 25-30 crit, 19 AS, 50 avo

Killing edge: 25 atk, 55-50 crit, 21 AS, 54 avo

Saleh base lv (elfire): 30 hp, 26 atk, 9 crit, 14 AS, 8 def, 13 res, 39 avo

Joshua's certainly more durable, but he also loses atk significantly (1-2 points + def/res gap), then Saleh has 1-2 range which works for him both offensively (countering more enemies) and defensively (no player phase counters). Then Saleh has a C rank in staves, but he also has 1 less move and wasn't around for more than half of Joshua's playtime. Joshua might also have some form of a support by now (Artur/Natasha/Marisa) for what it's worth, and he doubles more, not to mention he wins when both 2 round a 1 range unit because of his huge crit lead.

It's a tough call IMO.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Vykan12

[Colonel M]

Sages and Swordmasters have the same Mov in this game.

[Jaybee]

Joshua has to compete with any Paladin (Since Vidofnir is probably going to a General), Marisa, Colm, any Great Knight, any Hero, etc.

Generals have a sucky 5 move, and there's only Gilliam and Amelia (Gilliam goes GK, Amelia goes Paladin). Marisa comes underleveled (same as Josh 5 chapters later), Colm picks chests, and GKs are GKs for the axes (Forde, for example wants them since he has low strength). Gerik and Garcia want Axes for power and 1-2 range (Hand Axes). Also, Vidofnir will probably go to Vanessa or Tana. There's a chance Seth maxed Lances since he has his Silver Lance, which really leaves Franz and Colm.

[CT075]

Generals have a sucky 5 move, and there's only Gilliam and Amelia (Gilliam goes GK, Amelia goes Paladin). Marisa comes underleveled (same as Josh 5 chapters later), Colm picks chests, and GKs are GKs for the axes (Forde, for example wants them since he has low strength). Gerik and Garcia want Axes for power and 1-2 range (Hand Axes). Also, Vidofnir will probably go to Vanessa or Tana. There's a chance Seth maxed Lances since he has his Silver Lance, which really leaves Franz and Colm.

Generals also have great caps, but w/e. Gilliam goes GK for the movement, and he will probably end up using either Audhulma or Vidofnir, same with Amelia. Colm is a pretty good fighter, GKs are GKs for the promo boosts. Gerik and Garcia (Surprised you didn't mention Ross) can also use Audhulma is if they go hero (Although Garcia and Ross will probably go with Garm) as well as Hand Axes, Seth might not use the Silver Lance (He one rounds everything without it), which pretty much only eliminates Forde, Amelia, Garcia and Ross from the list.

EDIT: And Marisam too.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Master Gordin

[Defeatist Elitist]

Hang on a sec guys, General is probably better for Gilliam because he only loses one point of move and everything else is better (pretty much). The reason Amelia wants to go Great Knight is so that she can go Cavalier first, because otherwise there is little realistic chance of training her.

But yeah, the difference between Great Knight and General actually kind of favors General, and since Gilliam is forced into being a Knight anyway, he may as well become a General.

Basically, it's a trade between 2 Con, 2 Res, 1 Skill, 1 Speed, and 1 HP against 1 point of Move. Plus General has better caps, but caps aren't mega likely to actually matter, etc, etc.

Oh yeah, and you don't fear Horseslayers, for all that's worth.

Edited July 8, 2009 by ZXValaRevan

[Colonel M]

I'll get to Cormag > Colm soon, but no one really discussed (agree or disagree-wise) with Garcia > Eirika on her route.

[dondon151]

But yeah, the difference between Great Knight and General actually kind of favors General, and since Gilliam is forced into being a Knight anyway, he may as well become a General.

Basically, it's a trade between 2 Con, 2 Res, 1 Skill, 1 Speed, and 1 HP against 1 point of Move. Plus General has better caps, but caps aren't mega likely to actually matter, etc, etc.

2 res, 1 skl, and 1 HP are negligible. 2 con has very small implications, as Gilliam's 14 con as a GK lets him wield every sword and lance and most axes without AS loss. Essentially it's 1 AS against 1 move, and 6 move is pretty important because it prevents you from being left behind.

[Jaybee]

Generals also have great caps, but w/e. Gilliam goes GK for the movement, and he will probably end up using either Audhulma or Vidofnir, same with Amelia. Colm is a pretty good fighter, GKs are GKs for the promo boosts. Gerik and Garcia (Surprised you didn't mention Ross) can also use Audhulma is if they go hero (Although Garcia and Ross will probably go with Garm) as well as Hand Axes, Seth might not use the Silver Lance (He one rounds everything without it), which pretty much only eliminates Forde, Amelia, Garcia and Ross from the list.

EDIT: And Marisam too.

Gilliam doesn't give jack shit about either one because of uber strength. Amelia sucks (mid-game trainee). Colm's pretty okay, I guess. Ross wants to go Rosszerker. Gerik will probably switch to full axes upon promotion. Seth is also okay. Marisa comes at the same level as Josh 5 chapters later. Lol.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Joshybear25

[Vykan12]

Even if Gerik mains axes post promotion, he can still easily reach S swords sooner. He'd also be robbing someone of Garm's much appreciated +5 spd bonus for what it's worth.

What are we discussing anyway? I looked back a page and it seems the whole general promotion path discussion was triggered by talking about Joshua's competition for the Audhulma, and they're too virtually unrelated topics.

[Jaybee]

I think Camtech and I were arguing about the competition Josh had for Audhulma before it spun off into a discussion on promo paths. Our bad.

[Colonel M]

Arguing "who gets Audhumla" isn't going to change Joshua's tier positioning. It's almost like arguing "who's getting Garm or the Brave Axe in Eirika Mode" because the answer is almost simple: Garcia, though the pending is on the competition. In Audhulma's case, Joshua isn't necessarily needing it since he can pull off a critgame (though it sort of sucks due to the major Ice affinities that he has).

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[dondon151]

I get so irritated when I see "Audhulma" instead of "Audhumla" but then I remember that it's misspelled in this game.

[Progenitus]

Neimi needs to move up. srsly

Lemme compare her to Ross.

1/0 Neimi, C Colm

17 HP, 4 str, 6 spd, 18 avo, 3 def, 5 move, 5 con

Iron Bow: 11 att

3/0/0 Ross

16.4 HP, 6 str, 3.6 spd, 16 avo, 3.5 def, 4 move, 8 con

Hatchet: 10 att

Neimi wins, although she's still pretty sucky. I think Ross actually gets doubled by the fighters though.

Now, for supports.

Neimi's options are easy. Colm's a no brainer, and Artur definitely likes Neimi if she's played, because she's a +3 support (Lute's his other +3 support, and his other supports are +2). Her other options aren't that good though. Garcia is meh, Gilliam is okay but it's a bit of a slow support (I also think Gilliam is way too low. Low tier? wut?), and Amelia is garbage.

Ross has more trouble getting supports though. The Gerik support is fine. But Garcia is still meh, plus fielding both of them means one of them loses out Garm, which really sucks for the other guy. And Lute support is iffy, since Lute doesn't really want him or care if he gets him. She wants Artur first because it's +3 and starts very early. This leaves Vanessa and Kyle to fight over the last slot with Ross, which significantly hurts his chances of getting it. And ross' other options aren't even worth mentioning. lolamelia. lolewan

Neimi can get A Colm/B Artur pretty easily. Ross is most likely getting just A Gerik. He can go A Garcia/B Gerik, but again, this means they'll be fighting over Garm (and maybe the brave axe), and Garcia isn't really played that often. A Gerik/B Lute is possible, but because this hurts Vanessa or Kyle, it's not worth much. And of course A Garcia/B Lute which is pretty unlikely.

Now for some other stuffs.

Neimi's the only archer in the game (since Innes is technically a sniper), which means she has zero competition for her orion's bolt, and she can really just promote whenever she wants. Ross is fighting against multiple people for the hero crest, which is only going to delay his promotion (although since he's so underleveled, he can probably just take the last one that pops up). Advantage for Neimi.

Also, this means taht Neimi has almost free access to any of the good bows you have, since Innes is her only competition for them (technically, Ross/Garcia/Gerik can too if they go Warrior or Ranger, but they're honestly better off as heroes. IIRC their promo bonuses are just better).

6/0 Neimi, C Colm

19.8 HP, 6.3 str, 9 spd, 26.5 avo, 3.7 def, 5 move, 5 con

Iron Bow: 12.3 att

10/1/0 Fighter Ross

23.3 HP, 11.5 str, 5.7 spd, 23 avo, 5.3 def, 5 move, 11 con

Iron axe: 19.5 att

Who's winning? Well, Ross can take an extra hit before he dies (actually, if the enemy has 17+ att, they both die in 2 hits), but he takes counters while Neimi doesn't (if he uses the hatchet, then his att drops to 15.5 where Neimi won't have problems winning offense, and if he uses hand axe, he loses 1 AS and his hit becomes questionable). Durability is more or less tied because of this, actually.

Offense is debatable, since I don't remember enemy stats offhand. 7 att is huge, but so is 3 spd. Neimi can hit flier weakness, but there aren't many fliers at this part in the game (actually, I don't remember seeing any).

Ross can attack at 1 range, but he dies pretty quickly, so that's not worth a whole lot.

It's probably a tie.

14/0 Neimi, B Colm/C Artur

24.1 HP, 9.9 str, 13.8 spd, 48.1 avo, 5.9 def, 5 move, 5 con

Iron Bow: 17.9 att

10/11/0 Fighter Ross

30.3 HP, 16.5 str, 8.7 spd, 33 avo, 7.7 def, 5 move, 11 con

Iron Axe: 24.5 att

Durability?

It takes ~18 att to 2HKO Neimi and ~14 to 3HKO.

It takes ~18 att to 3HKO Ross and ~15 to 4HKO.

Overall, again, Ross can take an extra hit. Which isn't that good, actually, since I see Ross getting 3 or 4HKO'd, which is still probably worse than the other frontliners you have available, and he still takes counters.

Offense, I'm giving it to Neimi. It's 5 spd vs 6ish att.

I see Neimi winning by a little, actually.

20/3 Ranger Neimi, A Colm/B Artur

29.5 HP, 14.5 str, 18.3 spd, 67.1 avo, 10.8 def, 7 move, 8 con

Steel Bow: 27.5 att, 17.3 spd, 65.1 avo

Steel sword: 26.5 att, 16.3 spd, 63.1 avo

10/20/1 Hero Ross, B Gerik

40.6 HP, 20.4 str, 13.4 spd, 56 avo, 13 def, 6 move, 11 con

Iron axe/steel sword: 29.4 att

On offense, Neimi probably wins. 3 AS vs 3 att (or 4 AS vs 2 att if Neimi uses a bow).

Defense, Ross finally gets a decent durability lead, though it's not particularly huge. I'd consier the 11 HP to be about equal to the 11 avoid, which leaves Ross' ~2 def. However, Neimi can attack at 1 range now, and can use a bow when needed.

20/10 Ranger Neimi, A Colm/B Artur

34.4 HP, 18.6 str, 23.7 spd, 82.4 avo, 12.2 def, 7 move, 8 con

Silver Bow: 35.6 att

Nidhogg: 40.6 att, 87.4 avo

Killing Edge: 31.6 att, 60.5 crit

20/9 Hero Ross, A Gerik

46.2 HP, 24 str, 15.8 spd, 69 avo, 15 def, 6 move, 11 con

Silver axe: 40 att, 14.8 spd, 67 avo

Garm: 45 att, 18.8 spd, 75 avo

Killer axe: 36 att, 53.8 crit

On offense, Neimi's still winning. Ross has trouble doubling anything that's not weighed down unless he pulls out Garm, while Neimi doubles nearly everything. For stuff that Neimi has trouble 2-shotting, she can use a killing edge and have ~84% chance to land a crit assuming she doubles, which will probably kill everything except generals.

On defense, Neimi's winning, probably. Avo usually beats HP in equal amounts, and the two values are almost tied, but Ross is bolstered by an extra weapon type and def. However, Ross actually gets doubled by Gwyllgis without Garm, which isn't pretty, and some swordmasters can accomplish that too (or you get a slightly spd screwed Ross, and then ALL the swordmasters double him).

I don't see how you can have a 2 tier gap between the two, not when Neimi is the one arguably better.

also, wtf @ Eirika route Saleh being so high. especially above lute. A 16 or 17/0 Lute has the same mag and spd as base level Saleh, wins both growths (especially 65% mag vs 30% mag. She actually wins every growth except HP and def), can promote into the superior mage knight (which will give promo bonuses), and will have established supports, which will give her durability that's far greater than Saleh's HP/def or whatever he can manage, not like his wind affinity gives him much durability anyway.

Speaking of supports, Saleh has limited options. He has Gerik, but Gerik also has Tethys and Joshua, so that's a bit questionable. He has Eirika, but Eirika already has Seth and Forde, so that's also questionable as well. Chances are he's only getting one.

Lute has Vanessa and Kyle and Artur, and she's one of their best options for ALL of them (second best for Vanessa, second best for Kyle, since this is Eirika route and Kyle doesn't want Eph, best for Artur).

Lute would have to be utter garbage before Saleh joins for this to even be a contest.

Artur is pretty much Lute with less avoid but with IIRC a better earlygame (he has more spd), so he should also be above Saleh as well.

There's also more I disagree with (for starters, Joshua being so high on Eirika route, and Gilliam's just too low in general), but I'll leave that for another time.

Edited July 10, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Dat Nick]

im too lazy to validate Smash's argument, but I am going to say that it creates a bit of a fallacy if Neimi>Ross, because Innes is definitly better than Neimi, and Mekkah did a pretty good job of proving Ross>Innes.

[Jaybee]

What the fuck happened to Ross A Garcia anyway?

[Colonel M]

What the fuck happened to Ross A Garcia anyway?

smash's skewered comparison of things.

[Dat Nick]

What, it doesn't have anything to do with Garcia's meh once his earlygame novelty wears off?

[Colonel M]

What, it doesn't have anything to do with Garcia's meh once his earlygame novelty wears off?

Garcia's only "meh" for the duration up to C15. I don't know many Axe-users that can get S Rank that quickly. On top of that there's the Brave Axe by C16. So his only "meh-ness" is actually midgame.

[Dat Nick]

I don't know many Axe-users that can get S Rank that quickly.

Garm's also only not going to be broken for 15 enemies, this totally ignoring the fact that Ross wants it just as bad as Garcia does.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Norton Says What?

[Colonel M]

Garm's also only not going to be broken for 15 enemies, this totally ignoring the fact that Ross wants it just as bad as Garcia does.

Not... exactly. The only time Garcia will probably be desperate for such a weapon is when it's dealing with mass promoted enemies or something like Mercenaries when he should simply switch to a Reaver. Though he doesn't double sometime that doesn't mean he can't take them down on the Player Phase + Enemy Phase; something that someone like Neimi lacks for quite a long time.

EDIT: Not that I am advocating it, but competition for a Speedwing isn't terribly big. Garcia can obtain the item with little drawbacks to the team, assuming most of your team is doubling as it is.

EDIT2: There's also the Brave Axe. Considering that using Duessel in Eirika Mode isn't certain, Ross and Garcia can easily share these weapons.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Colonel M

[-Cynthia-]

I don't think smash was trying to show Neimi> Ross (he glossed over her failure enemy phase that lasts for a very long time), but just to show that they're comparable. I could see Ross in Low.

I also agree on the Saleh point, he's too high, I don't see how Saleh>Lute.

Also Gilliam in Low does seem a bit off. If Duessel's 12 AS at --/8 is acceptable enough to put him above Eph. route Ephraim, Gilliam's AS should suffice most of the time as well, General Gilliam reaches 12 AS at 20/4.

Edited July 12, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Progenitus]

Not... exactly. The only time Garcia will probably be desperate for such a weapon is when it's dealing with mass promoted enemies or something like Mercenaries when he should simply switch to a Reaver.

...a chapter like Last Hope is almost entirely promoted enemies, dude.

Not to mention that he's very borderline doubling. e.g., wyverns in ch 17 have 10-12 spd, 7-9 AS because they use steel lances mostly. A 20/3 Hero Garcia has 12-13 spd, which means he has issues doubling, especially if he's slightly spd screwed. Cavs have about the same spd as wyverns. And aside from those two enemy types, almost everything else is promoted and giving him even more issues doubling.

Though he doesn't double sometime that doesn't mean he can't take them down on the Player Phase + Enemy Phase; something that someone like Neimi lacks for quite a long time.

The difference is that Garcia is taking a player + enemy phase when most of your team should be taking only one phase to do the job.

Neimi has no enemy phase before promotion, but during that time period the only person one rounding reliably is Seth, and there also tends to be fewer enemies to deal with in the earlygame, so it's easier to handle with Neimi's lack of enemy phase.

EDIT: Not that I am advocating it, but competition for a Speedwing isn't terribly big. Garcia can obtain the item with little drawbacks to the team, assuming most of your team is doubling as it is.

Everyone wants a speedwing, if only for extra avoid, or being able to double more things early on, even Neimi, or heaven forbid Ross himself. This doesn't do anything for Garcia at all.

EDIT2: There's also the Brave Axe. Considering that using Duessel in Eirika Mode isn't certain, Ross and Garcia can easily share these weapons.

The problem I'm seeing is that Garcia will require brave or Garm for nearly every single enemy lategame, which will cause it to break ridiculously fast. And ross is only slightly faster (like, 13-14 AS vs 11 at ch 17), which means he's going to have some issues too, especialyl if he gets even slightly spd screwed.

Plus this Duessel you're talking about only exists half the time. the other half it's Eph route, lolrapage Duessel. And I don't see how Duessel Eirika route isn't "certain", since he's comparable to Garcia, maybe even better.

20/1 Hero Garcia

44.8 HP, 19.4 str, 12.2 spd, 11 def, 5.4 res, 33.8 avo, 6 move, 14 con

20/8 Duessel

41 HP, 17 str, 12 spd, 17 def, 9 res, 32 avo, 6 move, 16 con

Even if you give Garcia full supports, Duessel is pretty even. Consider that Duessel still has lances over Garcia.

Garcia gains levels faster, but Duessel has better growths (Garcia has +5 HP, +10 str. Duessel has +10 spd and +20 def). And Duessel might get some kind of support.

I don't see how Eir route Duessel isn't a viable lategame unit if Garcia somehow is.

EDIT: I also forgot that Eir route Duessel is auto leveled a few times. I think twice? This gives him slightly better stats.

The Garcia support doesn't really do much for Ross anyway. It gives him more useless att (does Ross really need more?), and some avoid, but Ross' big problem is his spd.

I don't think smash was trying to show Neimi> Ross (he glossed over her failure enemy phase that lasts for a very long time), but just to show that they're comparable. I could see Ross in Low.

Are you comparing Neimi's enemy phase to Ross'? Ross' enemy phase sucks for a long time. I don't care if he can counter stuff on enemy phase if he's worse than like everyone else on the team. And Neimi generally has the better player phase offense.

Plus I can always promote Neimi into Ranger early, since she's the only archer and can use the orion's bolt anytime she wants.

Edited July 12, 2009 by smash fanatic

[-Cynthia-]

Are you comparing Neimi's enemy phase to Ross'? Ross' enemy phase sucks for a long time. I don't care if he can counter stuff on enemy phase if he's worse than like everyone else on the team. And Neimi generally has the better player phase offense.

Plus I can always promote Neimi into Ranger early, since she's the only archer and can use the orion's bolt anytime she wants.

Ross's enemy phase may not be wonderful, but it's still better than Neimi's. He can take an extra hit, counter, and isn't targeted by all melee units in range. You do have a good point about the promotion though, although even getting Neimi up to level 10 is a pain.

Edited July 12, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

...a chapter like Last Hope is almost entirely promoted enemies, dude.

...You do realize this is toward the very end of the game, right?

Not to mention that he's very borderline doubling. e.g., wyverns in ch 17 have 10-12 spd, 7-9 AS because they use steel lances mostly. A 20/3 Hero Garcia has 12-13 spd, which means he has issues doubling, especially if he's slightly spd screwed. Cavs have about the same spd as wyverns. And aside from those two enemy types, almost everything else is promoted and giving him even more issues doubling.

Wyvern Riders are very common as well as the failboat Pegasi. Then there's Mages. The only few promoted enemies that I actually remember is maybe a Wyvern Lord or two, the two Berserkers, Ranger(s), and that's about it. There's a low number of these promoted guys this late in the game.

The difference is that Garcia is taking a player + enemy phase when most of your team should be taking only one phase to do the job.

That doesn't necessarily mean Garcia is that terrible. Most of the action is done on the Enemy Phase as it is, not to mention that Garcia w/supports is viable enough for a small critgame with a Killing Edge / Killer Axe. The only time this should actually happen is when I said so: really fast enemies like Mercenaries and promoted units that don't have class effective weapons to be taken down by.

Neimi has no enemy phase before promotion, but during that time period the only person one rounding reliably is Seth, and there also tends to be fewer enemies to deal with in the earlygame, so it's easier to handle with Neimi's lack of enemy phase.

There's also a lack of units in general that are very sturdy like Seth. Garcia is able to take more than two-three hits most of the time. Rare exceptions come by (maybe Franz), but that also excludes that Garcia can still one round some units when he doubles or, by C6, say goodbye to anything on a horse with a Halberd.

Everyone wants a speedwing, if only for extra avoid, or being able to double more things early on, even Neimi, or heaven forbid Ross himself. This doesn't do anything for Garcia at all.

This doesn't mean that Garcia can't obtain one. There's more than one in the game anyway, it's not like giving him (or Ross, w/e) a Speedwing is going to crash the team efficiency-wise.

The problem I'm seeing is that Garcia will require brave or Garm for nearly every single enemy lategame, which will cause it to break ridiculously fast. And ross is only slightly faster (like, 13-14 AS vs 11 at ch 17), which means he's going to have some issues too, especialyl if he gets even slightly spd screwed.

For Last Hope, perhaps he will. I can't remember the AS very well by lategame, so I'd have to double check on it. I'm pretty sure for the most part that unpromoted enemies usually dominate. There's C16, I believe, where there are a few more promoted enemies; however, I don't know too many people doubling Heroes in the first place and the others are lolMagi. There's a Swordmaster or two as well (I think), then a few others. God my memory sucks.

Plus this Duessel you're talking about only exists half the time. the other half it's Eph route, lolrapage Duessel. And I don't see how Duessel Eirika route isn't "certain", since he's comparable to Garcia, maybe even better.

20/1 Hero Garcia

44.8 HP, 19.4 str, 12.2 spd, 11 def, 5.4 res, 33.8 avo, 6 move, 14 con

20/8 Duessel

41 HP, 17 str, 12 spd, 17 def, 9 res, 32 avo, 6 move, 16 con

Even if you give Garcia full supports, Duessel is pretty even. Consider that Duessel still has lances over Garcia.

Garcia gains levels faster, but Duessel has better growths (Garcia has +5 HP, +10 str. Duessel has +10 spd and +20 def). And Duessel might get some kind of support.

I don't see how Eir route Duessel isn't a viable lategame unit if Garcia somehow is.

I'm not saying Garcia nor Duessel aren't viable. Except one hasn't been around since forever while the other one has.

The Garcia support doesn't really do much for Ross anyway. It gives him more useless att (does Ross really need more?), and some avoid, but Ross' big problem is his spd.

You seem to forget Crit as well, which can help at times bypass the Spd issue. Not guaranteed, but it can. Then Duessel getting supports but Garcia not? *Rolls eyes*. Right...

Also, if we're going as far as to say Duessel is good with AS, then Ross would've been a bit better since by 20/1 he's beating Duessel and ties in the Spd growth.

[Progenitus]

Ross's enemy phase may not be wonderful, but it's still better than Neimi's. He can take an extra hit, counter, and isn't targeted by all melee units in range. You do have a good point about the promotion though, although even getting Neimi up to level 10 is a pain.

Except you're pretending that he only gets targeted by one enemy. If he gets targeted by just 2, he's likely going to die. Remember that Ross is taking counters on player phase if he uses iron axe, and if he uses hatchet for 2-range, he loses 4 att (hand axe makes him lose 1 AS and 1 att over iron axe, and his hit now sucks), and by having him 1-range, he's now tanking in place of someone else that could've done the job better, like Franz/Kyle/Forde/whatever.

You should read my post about the ability to counter on enemy phase, since it covers everything on the issue.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?...st&p=476832

.You do realize this is toward the very end of the game, right?

And you do realize your post was TALKING about the endgame, right?

Do you remember this?

Garcia's only "meh" for the duration up to C15. I don't know many Axe-users that can get S Rank that quickly. On top of that there's the Brave Axe by C16. So his only "meh-ness" is actually midgame.

You claimed that his "meh-ness" is only lasting for his midgame. I'm telling you otherwise.

Wyvern Riders are very common as well as the failboat Pegasi. Then there's Mages. The only few promoted enemies that I actually remember is maybe a Wyvern Lord or two, the two Berserkers, Ranger(s), and that's about it. There's a low number of these promoted guys this late in the game.

http://s11.zetaboards.com/Fire_Emblem_Fusion/topic/389780/1/

Chapter 17 has...

15 wyverns

6 cavs

2 fighters

2 mages

4 heroes

12 druids

10 warriors

4 paladins

2 GKs

2 valks

1 wyvern lord

1 berserker

1 SM

1 sage

Lyon

What is Garcia doubling? Well, the wyverns/cavs are all very borderline. He doubles fighters/mages. He can't double heroes. He might double druids, although he can probably OHKO them anyway. He won't double the rest of the enemies aside from the sage that he could've probably OHKO'd anyway. In fact, valks/SMs have 16-17 spd, which means Garcia might GET doubled by them.

That doesn't necessarily mean Garcia is that terrible. Most of the action is done on the Enemy Phase as it is, not to mention that Garcia w/supports is viable enough for a small critgame with a Killing Edge / Killer Axe. The only time this should actually happen is when I said so: really fast enemies like Mercenaries and promoted units that don't have class effective weapons to be taken down by.

There's also a lack of units in general that are very sturdy like Seth. Garcia is able to take more than two-three hits most of the time. Rare exceptions come by (maybe Franz), but that also excludes that Garcia can still one round some units when he doubles or, by C6, say goodbye to anything on a horse with a Halberd.

The point is that Garcia's horrible lategame performance is just as bad, if not worse, than Neimi's horrible earlygame performance. We all know Garcia's earlygame is pretty good. This has nothing to do with how lame he becomes after the earlygame.

Also, "class effective weapons" don't solve anything at all. They're only good against that specific enemy type, which means you could use it on something on player phase, but then on enemy phase there's no guarantee at all that other enemies will run into him and suicide into him, e.g. simply because garcia has the ability to use a halberd doesn't mean paladins aren't an issue anymore, since if he swings that around on enemy phase, it'll just burn through uses on enemies it's not effective against. Plus, hammer and halberd make him lose 1 AS if he goes hero, which means the really fast enemies might double him if he's using it, since he's already borderline getting doubled by them.

Plus, it doesn't matter if Garcia is better than Neimi or not. The whole argument here is whether or not Garcia is a viable support option for Ross, since the original argument is Ross vs Neimi. Garcia is a mediocre character overall because he's just lame after the earlygame, which is why he's not played particularly often, at least not often enough for Ross to get the support.

This doesn't mean that Garcia can't obtain one. There's more than one in the game anyway, it's not like giving him (or Ross, w/e) a Speedwing is going to crash the team efficiency-wise.

So what? I can throw resources on Neimi too. Like that same speedwing. Now she has a significantly easier time doubling things early on, or she can switch to a steel bow now that the speedwing lets her handle the AS loss better, etc.

I'm not saying Garcia nor Duessel aren't viable. Except one hasn't been around since forever while the other one has.

Garcia's performance early or midgame has nothing to do with Garcia's lategame being better or worse than Duessel's lategame.

You seem to forget Crit as well, which can help at times bypass the Spd issue. Not guaranteed, but it can. Then Duessel getting supports but Garcia not? *Rolls eyes*. Right...

What are you talking about? Reread my post plz

Even if you give Garcia full supports, Duessel is pretty even. Consider that Duessel still has lances over Garcia.

Also, since you like to complain about units getting supports, you should learn how to justify your supports, e.g. show that a unit has tight competition for the support, or the supporter is bad and isn't frequently played, etc.

Take my Ross x Lute support for example. I clearly showed that the competition for the support is tight. Or pointing out that Ewan/Amelia sucks and he's not supporting them.

Also, if we're going as far as to say Duessel is good with AS, then Ross would've been a bit better since by 20/1 he's beating Duessel and ties in the Spd growth.

What? I never said Duessel's spd was good. wtf are you talking about?

Edited July 12, 2009 by smash fanatic