Red Fox (Largo) vs Mekkah (Ranulf)

[Vykan12]

How can a cat beat someone who can pin a tiger with his bare hands?

[Florete]

So, Ranulf joins in chapter 23 looking kind of like this (Untransformed/Demi Band/Transformed):

HP: 46

Atk: --/30/33

AS: 17/19/20

Avoid: 47/51/53

Def: 17/20/22

Res: 6/8/9

He obviously sucks untransformed since he can't fight, which, if he doesn't have the Demi Band, he will be for the first 2 turns. But we all know that for Ranulf to take the Demi Band means he takes it away from other good Laguz like Mordecai, Lethe, and Muarim. So, for now (aka until you reply), I'll just assume he isn't getting the Demi Band.

On the third turn he gets to transform. At one battle per turn, he'll have only 5 turns (5 enemies) before reverting again. At two enemies a turn, he'll have only 4 turns. Part of what sucks is that he can be attacked by a ranged enemy and still lose gauge, and then he'll have fought even less when he reverts. What can he do in that time?

He can kill Fighters and Warriors in one round. He can kill Cavalry Knight but misses the ORKO on Paladins. He also misses Wyvern Riders and Tigers, and his 20 AS can't double the Cats and some reinforcement Myrmidons.

So Ranulf's kind of okay at first. He's pretty decent offensively but has problems with transformation and no ranged options. His performance doesn't really change for chapter 24, so I'll skip that and head straight to the Largo vs. Ranulf comparison. Largo joins looking like this (Silver Axe/Hand Axe):

HP: 52

Atk: 37/29

AS: 20

Avoid: 52

Def: 10

Res: 3

Ranulf might have gained a level or two, but it won't have helped much. Largo has a pretty clear offensive win. 37 atk kills nearly everything it doubles, while Ranulf's 34 atk misses out on these 3 guys

3x Warrior lv 6-7 (steel axe, 1 steel bow)
46 hp, 27 atk, 12 AS, 94 hit, 29 avo, 12 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 5 cev

and this guy

1x Halberdier lv 9 (steel lance)
42 hp, 25 atk, 15 AS, 105 hit, 35 avo, 14 def, 9 res, 7 crit, 5 cev

and this guy if he wasn't lucky enough to get a +Str yet

1x Cat lv 7 (claw)
37 hp, 24 atk, 16 AS, 119 hit, 33 avo, 15 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 1 cev

Add in the fact that Largo can counter ranged enemies with his Hand Axe (not as much damage as Silver, but better than Ranulf) and can fight for the entire map and it's pretty easy to see that Largo is performing better. And of course, Largo's +15 innate crit gives him a better chance to instantly kill anything he couldn't already kill, or at least kill something before it counters him.

Also, I forgot to mention the effective weapons Ranulf faces. Chapter 23 has Petrine, a Myrmidon, and a Sword Knight, so that's not that bad. Chapter 24 only has a Sage with Bolganone, so he definitely needs to steer clear from that. And then 25 has a Warrior and a Swordmaster as well, and then later chapters have varying amounts. It's not a whole lot, but it's a good number of enemies throughout his existence that he has to be wary of that pose little threat to Largo.

As for supports, Ranulf is kind of screwed. Ike and Mordecai definitely aren't waiting for him, and Lethe should be filled up by then as well, but even if he gets Lethe he'll only get 7 avoid and mountains of lolhit, so no one really cares.

Largo at least has possible options. Mia likely isn't in play, so I'll skip her. Muarim would probably be willing to take him for a B if Zihark is in play and an A if Zihark isn't, and it gives full avoid, so that's pretty good. Devdan doesn't have much other choice except Nephenee since Tormod is subpar, but Nephenee might already be taken by Brom and Calill, so Largo can nail a B there. And then if Tauroneo is in play, his only other option is lolRolf, so that's a definite.

So Largo wins supports.

About where they're going? Let's check the growths:

Ranulf: Hp - 130, Str - 50, Skl - 55, Spd - 55, Luck - 35, Def - 35, Res - 20

Largo: Hp - 80, Str - 70, Skl - 45, Spd - 45, Luck - 30, Def - 25, Res - 20

Largo has a lower base level combined with fighting throughout the entire map. He'll grow faster, he'll always be stronger, and the other areas are generally going to be pretty close.

How can a cat beat someone who can pin a tiger with his bare hands?

I wonder the same thing.

[Mekkah]

But we all know that for Ranulf to take the Demi Band means he takes it away from other good Laguz like Mordecai, Lethe, and Muarim. So, for now (aka until you reply), I'll just assume he isn't getting the Demi Band.

First off, Lethe and Mordecai no longer qualify as "good", at least not when offense is concerned. The former has atk issues, and the latter AS issues.

12 Demi!Mordecai has 34.5 atk/15 AS

12 Demi!Lethe has 27.5 atk/20.3 AS

Looking at Ch23, Mordecai is already borderline on doubling Fighters (11-12 AS), only doubles weighed down Weapon Knights (2 out of 11), he does double wyvs and mages/bishops, doubles 1 out of 5 archers/snipers, and fails against myrms, cats, tigers. So generally he's 2RKOing at best, even with atk supports (they'll allow him to do more damage, but rarely if ever ORKO something he didn't). So giving the Demi Band to Ranulf instead comes with the cost of not having Mordecai 2RKO things for a few turns. You could argue you want to keep Mordecai around for supports, but for that I don't need him to be transformed.

Lethe has no issues doubling, but her atk is pretty bad, and she gets none from her supports. Like to a 40 hp/11 def Fighter, she does 33 damage, which isn't much better than Mordy's ~29 after supports.

Muarim is a different pack of heat altogether, of course, but he is still only one unit. Him not getting the Demi Band does have a price tag, but unlike something like a stat booster, it can be traded around in battle preparations, so for example Muarim could only have it every other chapter instead of every chapter.

On the third turn he gets to transform. At one battle per turn, he'll have only 5 turns (5 enemies) before reverting again. At two enemies a turn, he'll have only 4 turns. Part of what sucks is that he can be attacked by a ranged enemy and still lose gauge, and then he'll have fought even less when he reverts.

Besides Demi Band, there’s other ways to get more use out of Ranulf than that. The simplest way is to use a laguz stone. They’re limited, but they’re there, and if only one other laguz is fielded with the Demi Band, any uses left right now are for Ranulf and Reyson (or if not, then he can use Demi).

Another way is to have him battle when that’s not detrimental for the rest of the team. For example, Ranulf is among a group of other PCs, and a group of enemies attack. If there’s only 3 enemies and you have 5 PCs that can ORKO ready including Ranulf, then you could have all of them attack Ranulf (which would transform him instantly if it’s turn 1) with no net offense loss. The only negative is that these enemies might form blockades for others to pass through, but thankfully the vast majority of good units has Canto (Jill, Marcia, Tanith, Mist, every Paladin, and one guy has Knight Ring), so they can pass through an enemy after killing them.

You brought up ranged enemies hindering Ranulf during transformation time, but they can also help him when he’s untransformed. To reliably counter ranged enemies, you have to equip literally everyone in their attacking range with 1-2 weapons, and the people who have those are either rather frail (Soren, for example), or they’re inferior to their 1-range choices. A Javelin/Hand Axe has 4 less might than a Steel of said weapon type, 9 less than Silver, and in addition has less 10-15 less hit. The consequences of that may very well be that you lose out on ORKOs you could have had in another way, either by missing or by not doing enough damage.

To bring up another example, say there is 5 enemies coming up, and 2 of them are capable of attacking ranged. They can be ORKOed with 1-range weapons, but you fall short with 2-range. If you equip 1-range, 2 of them will be left alive. If you equip 2-range, 5 of them will be left alive. Either way, there will be enemies alive, so you might as well put Ranulf in range of some of them to increase his gauge.

Even if all of the above isn’t there, right now Ranulf isn’t competing with Largo for a slot, so he could simply await natural transformation behind your frontlines (perhaps Shoving/Smiting things…hi Reyson), and fight when he’s actually transformed, and he’d still be building up a lead on Largo. Even if we count each of his 2 chapters as half due to transform issues, Largo still has a 1 chapter deficit to make up for, meaning Ranulf only actually has to tie him in combat performance to win overall.

He can kill Fighters and Warriors in one round. He can kill Cavalry Knight but misses the ORKO on Paladins. He also misses Wyvern Riders and Tigers, and his 20 AS can't double the Cats and some reinforcement Myrmidons.

So Ranulf's kind of okay at first. He's pretty decent offensively but has problems with transformation and no ranged options.

Ranulf’s fully transformed 33 atk is about equal to 20/12 Jill with Steel Axe, and if she uses a Hand Axe she doesn’t actually reach that until like 20/20, just to give you an idea. And Ranulf’s str growth even beats hers by 10%. Their spd actually ties at equal levels (--/9 has both at 20). So “pretty decent offensively” seems like an understatement to me.

Also, you failed to take into account that Ranulf has extremely hax growths (130% hp, 50% str, 55% spd, 35% def, 145% avo), which matters quite a bit since he’s so borderline on ORKOing. Ch23 Paladins have 36 hp/16 def, so 33 atk is actually only 1 atk short of ORKOing them. On wyverns, he’s usually about 2 atk short. There’s actually only one Myrmidon he won’t double, and that’s by 1 AS.

Ranulf might have gained a level or two, but it won't have helped much. Largo has a pretty clear offensive win. 37 atk kills nearly everything it doubles, while Ranulf's 34 atk misses out on these 3 guys

3x Warrior lv 6-7 (steel axe, 1 steel bow)

46 hp, 27 atk, 12 AS, 94 hit, 29 avo, 12 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 5 cev

and this guy

1x Halberdier lv 9 (steel lance)

42 hp, 25 atk, 15 AS, 105 hit, 35 avo, 14 def, 9 res, 7 crit, 5 cev

and this guy if he wasn't lucky enough to get a +Str yet

1x Cat lv 7 (claw)

37 hp, 24 atk, 16 AS, 119 hit, 33 avo, 15 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 1 cev

And if he has 35+ atk, he ORKOs the warriors/halb. Or if they have two less hp or one less def. It takes the atk of 20/8 Steel Axe!Boyd to make for a clean ORKO on these guys, actually.

Add in the fact that Largo can counter ranged enemies with his Hand Axe (not as much damage as Silver, but better than Ranulf)

And in addition, Hand Axe gives him sub-Ranulf atk. If we assume Ranulf has gained +str and +spd, it’s now 29 atk/20 AS (Largo) vs 34 atk/21 AS (Ranulf). 10 less damage per double. Take a look at how much worse his offensive output becomes on player phase and against these 1-range enemies:

1x Cat lv 7 (claw)

37 hp, 24 atk, 16 AS, 119 hit, 33 avo, 15 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 1 cev

Ranulf makes a clean ORKO. Largo does 2x14, 9 hp short.

3x Cat lv 9-10 (claw)

42 hp, 27 atk, 18 AS, 114 hit, 38 avo, 18 def, 9 res, 8 crit, 2 cev

Ranulf does 16 damage, Largo 11. And Ranulf is closer to the 22 AS threshold to double him for 32.

2x Fighter lv 19 (steel axe)

40 hp, 26 atk, 12 AS, 90 hit, 29 avo, 13 def, 5 res, 5 crit, 5 cev

Ranulf makes a clean ORKO. Largo does 2x16, 8 hp short.

3x Sniper lv 7 (steel bow, 2 onager)

32 hp, 23 atk, 15 AS, 111 hit, 35 avo, 14 def, 10 res, 24 crit, 5 cev

Ranulf makes a clean ORKO. Largo does 2x15, 2 hp short.

2x Halberdier lv 6 (steel lance, 1 short spear, 1 vulnerary)

38 hp, 23 atk, 13 AS, 105 hit, 31 avo, 13 def, 8 res, 7 crit, 5 cev

Ranulf makes a clean ORKO. Largo does 2x17 counting WTA, 4 hp short.

If Largo is 2RKOing everything with Hand Axe and Ranulf is ORKOing 1-ranged enemies but leaving 2-ranged ones alive, then Largo’s overall output isn’t really any better unless ranged enemies outnumber non-ranged ones by significant amounts, but that’s hardly ever the case at all (estimates are 25%-33% of all enemies are ranged…and then there’s things like Longbows, ballistae and LRTs that Largo doesn’t counter).

Oh, also, hit. Largo has like 64 hit before anything, which is ~120 with a Hand Axe. Not a very big issue usually, though it can occasionally sting if something like a ~38 avo Myrmidon with WTA attacks him (~15% chance to miss). Ranulf’s got 141 hit and he never faces WTD.

And of course, Largo's +15 innate crit gives him a better chance to instantly kill anything he couldn't already kill, or at least kill something before it counters him.

This doesn’t really give you a lot more usable flexibility. Sure, Largo can crit 1-2 enemies on enemy phase sometimes when you don’t expect it, but at best that means I don’t have to send someone else to finish it off right there. Critting to not take a counter is even more useless in that aspect. It’s as if he has a bit more avo that only works on player phase and only if he takes a counter. At best, it frees up a healer you had to designate to heal Largo’s player phase wound to begin with.

Speaking of wounds, I see you completely skimped over their durability. You, too, must be a die-hard participant of the annual ninja parade.

--/7 lolololLargo: 52 avo, 52 hp, 10 def, 3 res

--/9 Ranulf (full): 53 avo, 46 hp, 22 def, 9 res

--/9 Ranulf (demi): 51 avo, 46 hp, 20 def, 8 res

It takes all of one hit for Ranulf’s 10-12 def lead to decimate Largo’s 6 hp lead, and from there Ranulf just can’t stop laughing. Let’s take a look at these enemy samples again. I’ll treat both of their avo as 52 to make it easy.

27 atk/114 hit Cat – 71% true

Vs Largo: 17 damage per hit, killed in 4, left with 1hp after 3.

CoD after…:

4 = 0.25411680999999997

5 = 0.5488923096

6 = 0.7626045468100001

Vs Ranulf (demi): 7 damage per hit, killed in 7

CoD after…:

7 = 0.09095120158390997

8 = 0.27558214079924725

9 = 0.4897540302890385

Vs Ranulf (full): 5 damage per hit, killed in 10, left with 1hp after 9

CoD after:

10 = 0.032552435510098794

11 = 0.1269544984893853

12 = 0.2775257889413473

13 = 0.4521884858656232

Largo is facing existent death chances after four hits already. Obviously we don’t want death chances at all, because Largo dying means chapter reset, or playing on without him. This severely restricts him in what he can attack and how much we can actually expose him to – a similar restriction to Ranulf’s laguz gauge, except that it is in play whenever there is enemies around, rather than whenever Ranulf is untransformed.

Just so show I’m not cherrypicking here, how about something Largo has WTA over?

23 atk/105 hit Steel Lance!Halberdier – 56% true on Ranulf, 37.41% true on Largo (WTD)

Vs Largo: 12 damage per hit, killed in 5

CoD after:

7 = 0.0733143039843336

8 = 0.1361955936069976

9 = 0.2149103919566484

10 = 0.303592058073332

Vs Ranulf (Demi): 3 damage per hit, killed in 16 (rofl)

CoD after:

20 = 0.02330664097494805

21 = 0.04722412949804933

22 = 0.0840570618236253

23 = 0.13499174538242179

24 = 0.19942412008429933

25 = 0.2750247730678356

Ranulf (full) takes 1 damage, or 0 with a def level-up. I’m not even bothering.

So here it isn’t as severe as the cat, where Largo has to avoid counters and enemy phases, but it’s more like him requiring healing when Ranulf would be able to keep on going, which is still pretty bad.

Also, I forgot to mention the effective weapons Ranulf faces. Chapter 23 has Petrine, a Myrmidon, and a Sword Knight, so that's not that bad. Chapter 24 only has a Sage with Bolganone, so he definitely needs to steer clear from that. And then 25 has a Warrior and a Swordmaster as well, and then later chapters have varying amounts. It's not a whole lot, but it's a good number of enemies throughout his existence that he has to be wary of that pose little threat to Largo.

Yeah, how about those?

1x Swordmaster lv 6 (laguzslayer [d])

32 hp, 23 atk (32 eff), 20 AS, 116 hit, 45 avo, 10 def, 6 res, 24 crit, 5 cev

86.74% true on Largo (WTA), 74.44% true on Ranulf.

Vs Largo: 14 damage per hit, killed in 4

CoD after:

4 = 0.5660798175452174

5 = 0.8663285527712008

6 = 0.9658610084986143

Vs Ranulf (demi): 12 damage per hit, killed in 4

CoD after:

4 = 0.29986576

5 = 0.6117261504

6 = 0.81443540416

Even when facing a laguz weapon, Ranulf is outperforming Largo. Not significantly enough to expose him much more often to them, though it is notable that Ranulf is having a hard time dying to anything else, and laguz slaying enemies are uncommon (like 2-3 per chapter at most). Basically they face about the same damage per hit once, and then for every other time they’re attacked Ranulf is winning again. And then there’s obviously the Beorcguard around. Your Demi Band user can’t hold it, and Reyson doesn’t get much out of it.

Now for the Bolganone Sage:

1x Sage lv 7 (bolganoe, mend) – 71.5% true

30 hp, 26 atk [35 eff], 12 AS, 114 hit, 27 avo, 10 def, 17 res, 6 crit, 3 cev

Vs Ranulf (demi): 27 damage per hit, killed in 2 hits

The only way Ranulf is going to die to him is if he gets attacked on enemy phase, then without healing straight-up attacks it again. He can even get away with killing it himself, because he’s still going to have 19 hp left…the strongest enemy in the chapter (33 atk Warrior) still needs two hits to finish him, and many enemies in Ch24 are more around 20-23 atk, which hardly even damages full Ranulf, and does like 0-3 to demi.

Btw, if Largo were to face the same Sage (or anything with similar dmg/hit), he would be able to take one more hit, but he’s only left with ~8 hp after two hits, but if anything else attacks him he’s dead as well (only 18 atk would be required, and even something retarded like a Longbow Sniper has 19).

Another consequence of Ranulf’s insane def lead is that he takes crits better. Let’s take an example from Ch26.

Assuming Largo levelled up twice by now and Ranulf thrice, they’re likely running with something among the lines of:

--/11 lololololLargo: 54 avo, 54 hp, 10.5 def, 3 res

--/12 Ranulf (demi): 55 avo, 50 hp, 21 def, 8 res

Take this one:

1x Warrior lv 9 (killer axe) – 37.41% real

49 hp, 32 atk, 14 AS, 97 hit, 34 avo, 12 def, 8 res, 36 crit, 6 cev

Normally, this guy does 21.5 to Largo, killing him in three hits, while he does 11 to Ranulf, killing him in 5.

However, he is running 36 crit, and Largo only has 12-13 CEV, while Ranulf has 13-14. Assuming both at 13, he has 23% disp crit, and a ~8.6% real chance to crit either of them (since you need to hit to crit). That 8% of the time, Largo is served (with butter at every table), whereas Ranulf is still right hand to Gallia’s future king (with 17 hp left to spare), and there’s nothing you can do about it except pray he won’t crit. Well, you could support Largo for more avo, but even with +10 avo from C Muarim/C Tauroneo, he still has 22.11% real hit, only reducing the real chance to ~5%.

Speaking of crit, Largo might boast impressive crit, but this also makes the number of enemies he would face unpredictable. Like, you plug him into a chokepoint or among other PCs, on a place where only one enemy he would not kill can reach him. And then he crits and opens himself up to enemies you didn't want him to face.

And then there’s things like boulders and onagers that hinder Largo even if he conceals himself among other people.

In conclusion on overall durability/combat performance, Largo’s flexibility is severely hindered. We’re talking about someone who basically has to be healed every player phase, and is limited to ~3 enemies max on average (0 if there’s one with crit and decent atk involved). His offense is decent, though it also gets in the way if he kills more than he can take on, like through crits. I doubt I have to explain why it’s more important to have good durability than good offense…especially when Ranulf’s offense is nothing to shake a stick at either.

For another misc factor, untransformed Ranulf ties Largo in movement, and beats him by 2 after transformation, so it’s easier for him to tune which enemies he faces and which he avoids, he can keep up with higher move units better, etc. This goes in tandem with Largo’s durability problems…for example, if Largo can only move like 4 mov due to durability issues, whereas Ranulf can move the full 7, then transforms and moves 9 next turn against another 5 of Largo’s or something, he’d be ahead by about full turn.

As for supports, Ranulf is kind of screwed. Ike and Mordecai definitely aren't waiting for him, and Lethe should be filled up by then as well, but even if he gets Lethe he'll only get 7 avoid and mountains of lolhit, so no one really cares.

Largo at least has possible options. Mia likely isn't in play, so I'll skip her. Muarim would probably be willing to take him for a B if Zihark is in play and an A if Zihark isn't, and it gives full avoid, so that's pretty good. Devdan doesn't have much other choice except Nephenee since Tormod is subpar, but Nephenee might already be taken by Brom and Calill, so Largo can nail a B there. And then if Tauroneo is in play, his only other option is lolRolf, so that's a definite.

So Largo wins supports.

You forget to outline how significant a support lead is if you’re only around for 5 chapters (25, 26, 27, 28, F). He’ll likely have C Muarim/C Tauroneo for Ch26, Bs at Ch27, and if Zihark isn’t in play he can have an A Muarim at Ch28. And even then, all those supports do is give him hit and avo…he isn’t beating Ranulf at anything when it comes to hit, and he only gets +5 hit for every 2 support levels anyway, so he’ll still have moderate trouble hitting swordies. Yeah, Devdan is also there, but his affinity doesn’t give avo or def, so if he takes him as a support partner, he’s even worse off.

Avo is more significant, but nothing to write home about for someone with def as low as Largo’s. Even at, say, ---/13, he has 57 hp, 11-12 (+2) def, 4 (+2) res, and ~80 avo with double Bs. Ch27 enemies easily have hit in the ~120-130s…something with 125 hit still has ~41% true on him. A 22 atk/128 hit Hawk, for example, does 9 damage, so at the very least he’s still going to need healing from high density areas (just for a reminder, this Hawk can’t hurt base level full transformed Ranulf).

A stronger enemy, like a 28 atk/130 hit Cat, has 50% true on him and does 14 damage if we round his def up and he has both his partners in range. Largo is still dead in 5 hits, 4 if his def is rounded down or he misses one of his partners…and he dies to anything else even if his def is rounded up.

He can take 1-2 hits extra if and once he gets both +def supports to B, but the avo has similar effects as the crit: it’s a bonus that does help his durability, but it doesn’t solve the problem that he has to limit exposal on enemy phase.

That really covers most of it all…

About where they're going? Let's check the growths:

Ranulf: Hp - 130, Str - 50, Skl - 55, Spd - 55, Luck - 35, Def - 35, Res - 20

Largo: Hp - 80, Str - 70, Skl - 45, Spd - 45, Luck - 30, Def - 25, Res - 20

Largo has a lower base level combined with fighting throughout the entire map. He'll grow faster, he'll always be stronger, and the other areas are generally going to be pretty close.

I enjoy the lack of exact numbers by how much Ranulf wins: +50% hp (!), +10% skl, +10% spd, +5% luck, +10% def, vs +20% str, but it’s not like these growths really tell us anything this post didn’t. As for the lower base level, Largo is only 2 levels lower at base, it’s not like we’re talking about Raven vs Marcus here or something. Ranulf’s growth advantages alone should cancel out any higher EXP gain Largo has…in fact, override it, considering growths don’t change, but Largo will grow closer to Ranulf’s level.

Now, a fancy conclusion. Note that it’s not just a summary of the points made, but also slightly further interpretation to show how significant these leads are. Just saying…

- Ranulf has an availability lead. He has 7 maps, Largo has 5, he still has 40% more playtime.

- Largo has a small offense lead. Ranulf is often extremely borderline on killing, Largo usually kills things unless he has Hand Axe.

- Ranulf has an enormous durability lead. They’re about on par if he gets hit by a laguz effective weapon. Crits are much more lethal for Largo than for Ranulf.

- Largo wins supports…but they don’t bring his durability anywhere near Ranulf level, especially not concretely. And they’re in effect for a very small point of time.

- Ranulf has gauge issues, but at worst they restrict him about as much as Largo’s durability issues, though there’s many more ways available to help these issues, like laguz stones and engaging in untransformed battles when it’s not a detriment.

How can a cat beat someone who can pin a tiger with his bare hands?

Right hand of Gallia's future king > losing your right arm in the future

Edited August 14, 2009 by Mekkah

[Florete]

Besides Demi Band, there’s other ways to get more use out of Ranulf than that. The simplest way is to use a laguz stone. They’re limited, but they’re there, and if only one other laguz is fielded with the Demi Band, any uses left right now are for Ranulf and Reyson (or if not, then he can use Demi).

There are only 4 total Laguz Stone uses. Using one is like using a stat booster except it doesn't last forever. In any case, I'd say Reyson being able to move further, be more durable, and Vigor four units instead of one a much higher return than Ranulf being able to fight.

Another way is to have him battle when that’s not detrimental for the rest of the team. For example, Ranulf is among a group of other PCs, and a group of enemies attack. If there’s only 3 enemies and you have 5 PCs that can ORKO ready including Ranulf, then you could have all of them attack Ranulf (which would transform him instantly if it’s turn 1) with no net offense loss. The only negative is that these enemies might form blockades for others to pass through, but thankfully the vast majority of good units has Canto (Jill, Marcia, Tanith, Mist, every Paladin, and one guy has Knight Ring), so they can pass through an enemy after killing them.

The obvious problem with that is that dead enemies > living enemies. If those 5 guys were dead, my units could just move and attack someone further away, or Rescue a slower guy if no enemies are in range or something. Ranulf being attacked means I have to kill all 5 of those guys still, which means I'm less flexible on my upcoming player phase.

You brought up ranged enemies hindering Ranulf during transformation time, but they can also help him when he’s untransformed. To reliably counter ranged enemies, you have to equip literally everyone in their attacking range with 1-2 weapons, and the people who have those are either rather frail (Soren, for example), or they’re inferior to their 1-range choices.

That's not as bad as you make it sound. It's rare for a map to be so open that a ranged enemy has access to a lot of PC's. For example, in Ranulf's joining map, despite its appearance, there are actually a lot of chokepoints due to the potholes that even the enemies know about, so it's easily possible to have only 1 or 2 PC's in range of a ranged enemy on any given enemy phase.

And if he has 35+ atk, he ORKOs the warriors/halb. Or if they have two less hp or one less def. It takes the atk of 20/8 Steel Axe!Boyd to make for a clean ORKO on these guys, actually.

Where's the relevancy? Base level Largo can kill them no matter what. Ranulf might not have 35+ atk, the enemies might not have lower stats, and I don't really care about Boyd's performance anymore.

And in addition, Hand Axe gives him sub-Ranulf atk. If we assume Ranulf has gained +str and +spd, it’s now 29 atk/20 AS (Largo) vs 34 atk/21 AS (Ranulf). 10 less damage per double. Take a look at how much worse his offensive output becomes on player phase and against these 1-range enemies:

But see, Largo doesn't attack everything with the Hand Axe. He equips the Hand Axe when he knows he'll be attacked by multiple ranged enemies, because doing damage > doing none. Or, if there's an enemy he can't kill for any given reason with Silver, he can throw a Hand Axe at it to lower it down, and then someone else can run up close and kill it, and trade out Largo for the Silver at the same time. So it's rare that Largo will ever counter 1 range enemies with a Hand Axe, and if he is, it should be because he's also countering ranged enemies at the same time.

I should also mention that there's a Short Axe and two Tomahawks Largo can put to use if the Hand Axe's damage output isn't great enough.

This doesn’t really give you a lot more usable flexibility. Sure, Largo can crit 1-2 enemies on enemy phase sometimes when you don’t expect it, but at best that means I don’t have to send someone else to finish it off right there. Critting to not take a counter is even more useless in that aspect. It’s as if he has a bit more avo that only works on player phase and only if he takes a counter. At best, it frees up a healer you had to designate to heal Largo’s player phase wound to begin with

Oh, but it does. I just needs to be combined with a Killer Axe or a +crit forge. With a Killer Axe, Largo has 55 base crit, and his 33 atk at least 3HKOs like everything, so he generally has like a 50% chance of killing anything before it can hit him at all. That's like half the enemies he faces. If you give him Vantage, this gives him the chance to do it against every enemy at 1 range he faces, which is a pretty massive durability boost when half the enemies you face don't actually get to attack you.

There's obviously an opportunity cost involved with taking Vantage, but the only character I can honestly see putting it to better use is Nephenee because of her innate Wrath. Zihark is considerable but doesn't always reach the 3HKO and has plenty of avoid to make himself pretty durable as he is, so giving Vantage to Largo can be a pretty good investment.

I could also assign Wrath to give him like 100% crit when his HP is low, but at that point I think I'm applying too much favoritism. Although, if he already has Vantage, the only character I can think of that would put Wrath to better or equal use is Mia, and she's not likely to be in play as it is. As you've shown, getting Largo to Wrath-range is not very hard, and this combo would make Largo virtually invincible against any 1 range enemy, which is something Ranulf can't duplicate due to no crit bonus and being stuck with hsi lousy Claw.

Largo is facing existent death chances after four hits already. Obviously we don’t want death chances at all, because Largo dying means chapter reset, or playing on without him. This severely restricts him in what he can attack and how much we can actually expose him to – a similar restriction to Ranulf’s laguz gauge, except that it is in play whenever there is enemies around, rather than whenever Ranulf is untransformed.

I can't disagree that Ranulf has a durability lead on Largo, and I know Vantage (and Wrath) won't completely cover it either (Though it's obviously considerable). However, you're showing him being 4HKOd while being hit ~2/3 of the time. While it's definitely worse than Ranulf, it's not particularly terrible either, especially when there are ways to fix it. He has his 2 range, which can prevent a counter on player phase entirely and possibly limit enemy phase exposure as well. He has crits (with or without skills) to prevent enemy counters. A Dracoshield goes a long way with his already high HP to raise HKO #'s. And, depending on how many enemies he faces, healing every third turn or so shouldn't be such a big deal when we likely have at least 2 healers already, and Elincia coming soon, and eventually Elixirs, and a team that is generally pretty durable as is, so healing isn't too high in demand that taking one on occasion is really a big deal.

As you said, it's a lot like Ranulf's transformation issues, only Ranulf can't effectively fix that like Largo can fix his durability.

And then there’s things like boulders and onagers that hinder Largo even if he conceals himself among other people.

Well, boulders are just a set 10 damage, so he actually takes them better than Ranulf unless Ranulf has already leveled a few times. And Onagers are also fairly rare, so it's not a huge threat.

For another misc factor, untransformed Ranulf ties Largo in movement, and beats him by 2 after transformation, so it’s easier for him to tune which enemies he faces and which he avoids, he can keep up with higher move units better, etc. This goes in tandem with Largo’s durability problems…for example, if Largo can only move like 4 mov due to durability issues, whereas Ranulf can move the full 7, then transforms and moves 9 next turn against another 5 of Largo’s or something, he’d be ahead by about full turn.

Ah, but see, Largo's ranged access gives him a bit more flexibility than 2 more move. Sure, Ranulf can reach an enemy 10 spaces away while Largo can only reach 9, but from any given spot, Largo can attack any enemy within 2 spaces of him, for a total of 12 spots from any given square, while Ranulf only has 4. This has many advantages because I can position Largo in much more favorable positions, like making it easier to wall him in if his HP is really looking low, or getting into a good spot for a Reyson Vigor, or walling off someone like Reyson or a Sage.

Skipped a lot of because I either covered it or I don't really have anything to say in reply (supports stuff). Basically, Largo's durability is like Ranulf's transformation, only it's easier to get around, and then Largo wins offense because of higher atk and crit.

Sorry it took so long, but I had a few problems coming up with good responses....