FE9 Tier list v3

[Shadow Mir]

The tier that Mia and Zihark are in is:

Mid

Nephenee

Stefan

Mia

Zihark

Rhys

Volke

So really he's only advocating for Stefan to go down below Mia/Zihark... not sure how the number of enemies with lances is relevant when all three are swordlocked.

True. But I'm not seeing any reason for Stefan to drop below both of them, really. And he didn't bother to back up his point either.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Samias]

I'd say that availability is the main reason why Stefan would be below them, as Stefan can't contribute to anything before chapter 16 (he does nothing in 15). Also, while supports rarely come into play, his options + Heaven affinity are obviously not helping him out at all.

That said, I've been doing a few runs lately and while PEMN and all that, I don't think Ilyana is really that far behind Soren. Soren obviously has a magic and speed lead, but Ilyana's better strength means she can use El-tomes without being weighed down, and their AS with siege tomes is actually fairly similar. The mage band or one of the +speed bands is also going to help her in all those levels she gains before Calill shows up. I'd still rank her below Soren as Soren is a key person chipping enemies in early chapters, but she can actually use tomes other than expensive forges. She'll never get an adept proc on her sieging since there is no way she's getting the adept scroll, but I find it easier to build up her weapon ranks to use more than just Bolting compared to Soren. Like Soren, she's also around to help in the desert, and shove chaining her up to help take out Muarim helps the reliability of a pacifist clear, since even super Marcia/Jill have some trouble ORKOing Muarim (in this scenario I assume the average player is going to have Jill ferry Lethe to Stefan's square, though, since a lot of players try for 100% recruitment).

To be honest, even though her stats are marginally better than Calill's even with bands, the big thing about the three mages is that they promote into staves, so I might actually do something like Soren>Ilyana>Tormod>Calill since it's easy to get the mage trio up to at least physic. Maybe Soren>Ilyana>Calill>Tormod, since Calill's availability isn't much less than Tormod's but she requires way less investment. If you don't dump BEXP into Tormod immediately, he's underleveled at a time in the game when everyone else is near to promotion/has promoted, and it's hard to ignore that he needs an immediate BEXP dump just to keep up. Astrid has Paragon and a horse to make up for being underleveled, but I don't think Celerity is actually a big deal. Boots are great, but usually it's because it allows high movement units go even further. When it's a mage who doesn't want to be in the front lines anyway, it isn't really making much a difference in the ability to hit things with a siege tome. Other than that, I think the mages (excluding Bastian) as a block are in a good location in the tier list.

[Hawk King]

^ Based on my post above, Soren is quite a bit better than Illyana. Illyana cant take the Bexp dump to save a turn in Chp 9 because for Boyd/Mia/Soren to do it, they actually take the Bexp in Chp 8 so they can kill all the enemies. Illyana would require alot more Bexp which would result in Marcia not having enough to promote for Chp 11.

My point was that, the 3 mages all need a Bexp dump at some point to be useful siege tomb users, and Soren is by far the best of the 3 because of all the extra things he can do that the other 2 cant do. This, imo, earns Soren a tier gap over the other 2.

Then comparing Soren to Callil, He should be above her too. For the availability lead, far superior stats, and all of the other contributions he can make with his staff utility.

Soren

Callil

Illyana

Tormod - these 2 might need to switch.

[-Cynthia-]

Let's not discuss the C9 BEXP dump like it's an important part of this tier list- as it falls under the criteria of requiring a specific team for a very specific strategy. I'm tired of hearing about it for all this Soren/Mia/etc. hype.

[Hawk King]

Well it's just as "efficient" if not moreso than the Marcia Bexp dump, and thats the sole reason for Marcia's placement.

If it's not allowed as an arguement for their value, then neither should Marcia's Bexp dump and as a result, Marcia and Jill should be below Tanith. It's the same exact scenario.

[Elieson]

There's a difference between dumping bexp into a unit for overall long-term use and a specific bexp dump for one shaved turn via shoving. The latter isn't the point of this tier list.

[Hawk King]

They all have long-term use. And Soren benefits the most from it of the 3.

He is the best unit in the entire game when it comes to killing shit, So if Marcia/Jill cant kill a certain boss they can drop in Soren instead of taking more resourses to achieve their goal.

He has siege tome and staff utility. The later being something that Callil can NEVER do and Illyana/Tormod will never reach B-staves in a reasonable amount of time.

He can be rescued by the mounties and be shoved by almost every foot unit, making him arguably the best Rescue staff user in the game. 15 range is 2 spaces further than the next best.

He actually SAVES more Bexp in the long-run by making the training of Mist/Rhys as a Rescue staff user unnecessary.

How is that not a long-term investment exactly?

[Espinosa]

I feel like starting a Fixed Mode efficiency run to test an Angelic Robe!Soren, but I lost my data which means no Fixed Mode for a while, and I also kinda want to finish 0% growths first.

[Elieson]

hawk we might be on two different wavelengths here. In my initial two playgrounds of fe9, with all the accumulated knowledge from SF, I still find it just fine and rewarding to bexp dump into Marcia early on. If I dump bexp into Soren, I'm still getting a handicapable combat unit who still gets 2HKO'D and doesn't fly or carry for all of early game and some of midgame. Marcia doesn't see that same problem.

If you're arguing Soren > Marcia, I can't agree with that

[-Cynthia-]

He is the best unit in the entire game when it comes to killing shit, So if Marcia/Jill cant kill a certain boss they can drop in Soren instead of taking more resourses to achieve their goal.

Soren really isn't the best combat unit in the game- he's not a very good boss killer at all in some instances. For instance, Soren has to be 20/16 to double Homasa, which just isn't happening. Well, unless you want to argue that we should BEXP Soren to that level at that point which wouldn't surprise me in the slightest despite the massive opportunity cost.

He has siege tome and staff utility. The later being something that Callil can NEVER do and Illyana/Tormod will never reach B-staves in a reasonable amount of time.

How can Ilyana not reach B staves if Soren can? They have almost the same availability and the point on BEXPing Soren for a C9 Shove was addressed earlier.

He can be rescued by the mounties and be shoved by almost every foot unit, making him arguably the best Rescue staff user in the game. 15 range is 2 spaces further than the next best.

Rhys and Ilyana can be rescued and shoved easily too, Mist has 3 more Mov meaning she needs less rescuing and shoving to reach the same position.

He actually SAVES more Bexp in the long-run by making the training of Mist/Rhys as a Rescue staff user unnecessary.

The cost of BEXPing Mist to level 10 is not even close to BEXPing Soren to like 20/18 or whatever you were proposing

While Soren isn't useless as a long term investment, you're definitely underrating the viability of other options here.

After getting more of this Soren hyperbole out of the way, putting Soren/Ilyana above Calill and possibly Mist does seem plausible provided they can reach certain staves within a reasonable timeframe.

Edited October 16, 2013 by -Cynthia-

[Hawk King]

No Illyana cannot do what Soren can. Reaching B-staves is dependent on Soren promoting on Chp 9. Like I said thats not an option for Illyana. And yes, 30MAG with a thunder forge and adept while attacking RES is the best in the game. And giving him Vantage makes his durability very good.

If you want to ban from discussion a strategy that involves using Soren to his fullest (and has significant long-term benefits for resourse expenditure), thats fine. Just please stop with thinking Soren is only slightly better than Illyana.

Mist only has 8 Movement. And she isnt getting close to 26 MAG with a LV10 promotion even if she takes both dusts, when every sage except for Soren wants at least one of them.

Im not arguing for Soren into top tier. Im saying Soren is above Callil who are both a tier better than Illyana and Tormod.

The more I think about it though, I can see Soren going even higher.

[Horakthi]

Reaching B-staves is dependent on Soren promoting on Chp 9. Like I said thats not an option for Illyana

This is just a really weird claim. Assuming efficiency, Soren doesn't have a chance to get much exp in Chapter 4 because it's so dangerous for him; Soren can get a couple levels or 3 levels in Chapter 5; Soren won't be able to get many levels in Chapter 6, maybe one at best; Chapter 7 isn't a really good place for him to get exp either, but he should be able to get a level there too; and again a couple levels or 3 in Chapter 8. So we have a level 7-8 Soren by the time Chapter 9 arrives. But Ilyana can herself get a level in Chapter 8. This gives us a level 7 Ilyana.

Even if Soren got to level 10 by Chapter 9 without bexp, which he won't, I'm not sure why we can't give Ilyana a tiny bit of bexp so she can catch up..

Edited October 17, 2013 by Horakthi

[Hawk King]

In order to promote on Chp 9, Soren actually needs to be Bexp'ed to LV 15 ish on Chp 8 so he can kill 85% on the enemies there.

Illyana is unable to kill those enemies so she is unable to promote on Chp 9 without taking Marcia's Bexp. Which means Illyana's promotion wont happen until later and at that point it becomes an absolute waste of resouses because we get nothing back for the early Bexp investment.

[-Cynthia-]

No Illyana cannot do what Soren can. Reaching B-staves is dependent on Soren promoting on Chp 9. Like I said thats not an option for Illyana.

It is an option for Ilyana. Ilyana is available in Chapter 9 and can receive BEXP. She can't Shove Ike while promoted big whoop, it's one possible turn in one chapter that's dependent upon other units and can be performed upon other units.

This tier list isn't consistent with arguments like that or otherwise Astrid/Makalov would be bottom tier- why give them any BEXP when we already have better mounted units available?

And yes, 30MAG with a thunder forge and adept while attacking RES is the best in the game. And giving him Vantage makes his durability very good.

Soren has 30 MAG at 20/20. Didn't we stop comparing 20/20 stats years ago? This tier list is not how well characters can solo the game, it's how they function on a team. Soren is not the only character in the game who likes BEXP.

If you want to ban from discussion a strategy that involves using Soren to his fullest (and has significant long-term benefits for resourse expenditure), thats fine. Just please stop with thinking Soren is only slightly better than Illyana.

Any character looks much better when we "use them to their fullest" Rolf is much better than many prepromotes we have when we BEXP him to 20/20...but this carries significant opportunity cost. Soren is not immune to opportunity costs.

I will continue to think Soren is only a little better than Ilyana because the stat differences between them at reasonable levels are rather small, and Vantage+Adept is still unreliable durability.

Mist only has 8 Movement. And she isnt getting close to 26 MAG with a LV10 promotion even if she takes both dusts, when every sage except for Soren wants at least one of them.

It's not like she needs 26 Mag to Rescue things in the first place.

Im not arguing for Soren into top tier. Im saying Soren is above Callil who are both a tier better than Illyana and Tormod.

The more I think about it though, I can see Soren going even higher.

Your ideas of resource expenditure are not consistent with this tier list. Your ideas seem to be coming from a Soren solo run or something.

Also why is killing the enemies on C8 important? And why is Soren entitled to all that combat exp as well?

Edited October 17, 2013 by -Cynthia-

[Ema Skye]

Would still like to see Tanith>Ike because I don't see how Ike's two chapters of Ragnell and many chapters of mediocrity outweighs Tanith having flight in parts of the game that love flight, like Ch.20 (cliffs), 21 (water canals), 23 (pitfalls), 24 (river) and 25 (mountain).

[Hawk King]

There is not enough Bexp to just promote Boyd/Mia/Soren. They need that combat Exp so that Marcia still has the ~1350 Bexp to promote.

Bands exist and Soren's average MAG is actually a full point higher because he starts with 99MAG points. Plus he can take a dust because he does the job of both Callil and Mist. He gets to 30 MAG pretty easily and even having 28 MAG at 20/11 is still better damage output than anyone else.

Soren has a 52% chance of not letting an enemy attack him. Then he has a high avoid if they do get a chance to attack. Thats good durability.

[Samias]

This Soren hype is ridiculous. Even if you give him a BEXP dump, he's only getting that exp a chapter earlier than Ilyana is, because you can't use the base menu until that point in the game. Before that, Soren is basically in the back because everything under the sun is a danger to him. He isn't getting to staves any faster than Ilyana with the same BEXP investment. By the time Ilyana shows up, a reasonably trained Soren without a massive BEXP dump is only marginally better. Ilyana has a better starting rank in Thunder, which is by far the best element in the game while Soren has to climb out of E rank, but he's slowed by non-forged Thunder and loses AS until he promotes unless he is insanely strength blessed (assuming fixed mode, this is not happening). Any unit in this game will be great if you give them all of your BEXP and resources, except Soren is not going to put it to as good of a use as any of the mounts, and especially not Marcia or Jill. Based on experience, the reality is that Soren and Ilyana are not that different as no one aside from Calill really cares about spirit dust at all, giving Ilyana just what she needs to catch up without much of a loss. PEMN but Ilyana and Soren play virtually the same, only Soren has forced contributions in the earlygame and Ilyana is purely optional. Ilyana is still above Tormod seeing as she does have the opportunity to contribute to a more reliable 3-turn desert clear (iirc that's the fastest clear possible if you want Stefan and also nets the Guard scroll, boots, silver blade, physic, and maybe a coin, shine and statue frag) if you use her.

I'm not sure about Ike being down. He has a rough start but he's so tanky AND fast as he levels up. Yeah, he's locked into one-range, but he has the entire game of existence unlike Tanith, and actually promotes at a time that isn't awful unlike say, Roy or one of Eliwood/Hector. Being on foot, no 2-range and meh base HP (remedied immediately with the ch 1 angelic robe) are like his only flaws, and yeah it bites about the whole 2-range thing but he has forced defence chapters and enemy dense chapters without immediate Titania deployment to help get him out of the early rut. He's the best against Ashnard, which is a necessary part of beating the game. Tanith brings her whole gang to help steamroll the chapters she's in, but she isn't nearly as reliable in combat as Ike and we only have one full guard to distribute and to make the best use of Tanith, she needs to wear it to avoid being OHKO by ballista. However, the same item is highly contested between Marcia and Jill, who are much better at combat so long as they've been trained. I know we can't deny Tanith the full guard in a hypothetical situation where we favour Tanith to use her to the best of her ability, but I find it hard to imagine the item being pried from Marcia's cold, dead fingers.

[BBM]

He's like the only person who can fight Ashnard in the first place, other than Nasir/Ena, who are pretty bad. Giving him +points for that is almost like 1-P Edward.

[Hawk King]

Forged thunder is an E rank tome.

People act like im advocating that Soren take all of the Bexp in the game. It's really not that much, just 1000. It's less than Marcia or Jill need and it doesn't prevent them from getting theirs either. And it's less than what Mist needs.

By giving him the Bexp, the team is able to cut a turn from Chp 9 and Soren is able to do the jobs of both Mist and Callil BY HIMSELF and he can do it BETTER THAN THEY CAN DO IT. Plus he can do normal combat better than everyone else.

Option A: Give Soren ~1000 Bexp, and a dust, speedwing, Vantage. Save multiple turns

Option B: Give Callil ~200 Bexp and a dust, Give Mist ~1500 and a dust.

Option C: Give Illyana/Tormod ~1200 Bexp and a dust. Give Mist ~1500 Bexp and a dust.

Option A looks like the best to me.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Hawk King

[Sol Hiryu]

lol @ giving Soren a speedwing. A dust he can take with relatively no trouble, but many other people want Vantage and the wing, and considering the opportunity cost of both of them, it's very unlikely he's going to be getting either since other characters put them to better use (Mordy, Marcia, Titania, etc...a lot of the people above him really want that wing).

Also, how exactly is Soren saving a turn in that chapter? If he saves a turn there with the resources you have, it would be reasonable to assume that it might cost more turns later in the long run due to those resources not going to where they could have gone for optimal use.

Soren's not a bad character, but I he's still a foot unit that's bothered by both terrain and defensive issues. Adept is nice, but ultimately unreliable in the first half of the game thanks to his his less than stellar speed. Additionally, neither he or Ilyana (or Tormod) are likely to see C rank staves anytime early unless you Seal them, which ultimately condemns them to staffbot use. Sieging is probably their best use, and that's in the later half of the game.

I can agree Soren > Ilyana, if only barely, but Calill still has the upper hand due to coming in trained with great magic ranks with no investment needed at all.

[Espinosa]

The Chp 23 3-turn clear requires 20MAG Ike, or you can have your super-flyer drop Soren who then Rescues Ike in to seize range with his massive 15 rescue range.

Is 20 mag Ike really required? If he's bulkier than your flier, he shouldn't be top priority for the enemies attacking. Also, if Soren is rescuing Ike on turn 2, he won't be able to siege on that same turn. How are you going to ORKO Petrine? Adept procs with multiple Killer Lance crits or something?

Soren having access to Rescue also allows for a possible 2 turn strat of Chp 24.

I'd really like to see this executed first, as well as the aforementioned chapter 25 2-turn rout.

lol @ giving Soren a speedwing. A dust he can take with relatively no trouble, but many other people want Vantage and the wing, and considering the opportunity cost of both of them, it's very unlikely he's going to be getting either since other characters put them to better use (Mordy, Marcia, Titania, etc...a lot of the people above him really want that wing).

Also, how exactly is Soren saving a turn in that chapter? If he saves a turn there with the resources you have, it would be reasonable to assume that it might cost more turns later in the long run due to those resources not going to where they could have gone for optimal use.

He is one of the units involved in shove chains, as you don't have many available yet (Mia, Ilyana and Soren need to be promoted in order to shove Ike). He won't be costing you turns assuming you're LTCing, which means you abstain from using Titania after a certain point (meaning she doesn't get the Speedwings), you don't recruit Jill (meaning she doesn't get Speedwings either), so Soren might as well have them. I really don't understand Hawk King's unwillingness to see this topic is not the list of units that are part of the (still imagined I think, considering the 2-turn starts of C24/25 have not yet been carried out in continuous documented runs outside of draft context) LTC dreamteam run. This 'ideal LTC' run also doesn't train Astrid or Makalov, and I'd imagine it neglects Boyd as well. Yeah, it might as well give the wings to Soren.

I don't know in which universe you'd give the wings to Mordecai or Marcia, though. The former shouldn't be fighting while the latter is fast enough already, capping speed when having it really high matters, which is not for a long time.

I can agree Soren > Ilyana, if only barely, but Calill still has the upper hand due to coming in trained with great magic ranks with no investment needed at all.

Calill's also not around for a long time, misses the desert and her use is no less situational than Soren's. I didn't siege Ena at all in 0% growths for example, taking an extra turn because Ike was a chump and flier wasn't a ORKO monster. And she still needs an investment.

By the way, Adept's activation depends on skill in this game. Not that it matters much for Soren.

[Horakthi]

Actually, I changed my mind on Soren. Hawk King definitely has a great point, but it's only a great point if all this is true in practice. It seems hypothetical for now.

Hawk King is also wrong on Chapter 25 being 2 turned with Vantage Soren because you can't get Vantage in Chapter 15 while also 2 turning it. So it all depends on a 2 turn of 24, and the unlikely 3 turn of 23 with Soren.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Horakthi

[PKL]

He's really not bad either in the earlygame. A bit difficult to give kills to at first? Maybe. But I've had a Level 6-7 Soren coming into Chapter 8. Even if it was a draft, it shows that he's not that hard to train, really. I'm not gonna say he's Top Tier, but he does have the edge when it comes to the sages in the game. He just does everything that the others can do, but a lot better. As for weapon ranks, when have they ever been an issue? I mean...come on: other than the siegers, who wants Arms Scroll anyway. Inb4 the Sonic Sword Mist.

EDIT: Not that he needs Arms Scroll if played correctly though. Chapter 17-3 has way too much experience and magic users can get a bunch of weapon rank there, while also building staff rank. >PP barrier, rescue the barrier'd person-> Ep counter everything with an EL weapon, Soren gets tinked, keeps getting 2 wexp per every enemy he battles and soon he's at a very high rank in everything. The experience of 17-3 doesn't have better recipients anyway. I always find my mounts and fliers are way too overleveled by then to care. And while soren isn't a mount, he's a great candidate to be carried in some maps by them.

EDIT 2: Chapter 24 is easily 2 turnable. I've done it before. Espinosa just sucks :p (jk bro)

Edited October 17, 2013 by PKL

[Espinosa]

Vantage is in chapter 14, and yes you can 2-turn it while obtaining the scroll.

[-Cynthia-]

All this stuff about like 15 Rescue range Soren is still silly though IMO. Even with a fairly sizable BEXP dump, units take a long time to reach 20/20 after promotion. Except for like Astrid and maybe Titania/Marcia/Jill, no other units will even reach 20/20 by Endgame without constant BEXP expenditures- and Soren both has low Mov and questionable durability so it's questionable how much CEXP he can obtain on most chapters.

Edited October 17, 2013 by -Cynthia-