FE9 Tier list v3

[dondon151]

I've already proven before that promoting a foot unit for Chp 9 is possible while still having enough Bexp left for Marcia. What else needs proof? Im not hypothesising here. Ive only been saying things I know to be true.

this is insufficient. you can't claim that this is not a hypothesis when you don't have evidence of this being done in practice.

Edited October 20, 2013 by dondon151

[PKL]

Yes, please explain how a level 13-15 unpromoted Soren in fixed mode (meaning horrible durability) is reliably promoting in Chapter 8. Guess what? It's impossible without a crapload of RNG abuse. This is exactly why drafters aren't taken seriously: they tend to lie about their turncounts and RNG abuse all the time.

Theorists should also not be taken very seriously...how many of you actually play this game? Also, these drafters that supposedly lie about their turncounts and rng abuse all the time have also made video playthroughs of LTC that are viewable to everyone. Gee, I wonder if they're just good at the games?

[Shadow Mir]

Going back to this...

I think Tanith over Boyd makes sense too. His earlygame isn't that impressive in my opinion (weighed down by Iron for 4 levels and his AS is really borderline earlygame), so I could also see him under Astrid because I think Astrid's horse outweighs Boyd's level and availability lead he has. Same with Makalov too.

I suppose Boyd and Ike both need to go down to bottom of High?

[Ema Skye]

Any drafter can tell you that Soren is a league above Illyana.

If by league you mean like 3 picks worse, then okay. If the team has a flier, then it's not uncommon for Calill to go before Soren.

Where is Soren getting all of this exp from? Ch.4 is a "in your face map", and the high enemy density really limits how much combat Soren sees. Ch.5 he can hide behind Oscar/Tits/Gatrie and get chip EXP. Ch.6 has high enemy density too once you cross the bridge, though it's not too bad before then. Ch.7 has enemies everywhere and Soren's combat here depends on how much exp he's gotten before (which isn't a lot). Chiki's LTC playthrough has shown that Soren is the only pre-Ch.7 unit that doesn't help save turns.

Are you like, giving him ~13 levels of BEXP so that he can be this 5 move killing machine in in Chapters 8 and 9? Because otherwise, I'm not seeing it.

[Horakthi]

What theory? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Soren is extremely fragile and he can't take more than a couple hits with a bexp dump and a Seraph Robe dump on fixed mode. This is just common sense; there's no theory involved here.

Assuming level 15 Soren, he has 25 HP and 4 def (lol). 32 HP with the Seraph Robe. The enemies have around 14-16 might in Chapter 8 (go look at the enemy stats) and he gets 3HKOed by enemies with more than 15 might.

And isn't bexp abusing not allowed in drafts anyway? Espinosa already pointed this out. Isn't it 50 bexp per chapter? Further proof that drafters are liars.

[Elieson]

Yes, please explain how a level 13-15 unpromoted Soren in fixed mode (meaning horrible durability) is reliably promoting in Chapter 8. Guess what? It's impossible without a crapload of RNG abuse.This is exactly why drafters aren't taken seriously: they tend to lie about their turncounts and RNG abuse all the time.

Uhhhh pretty sure this statement outta be retracted, unless you have proof. It's not exactly on topic to reference liars without evidence about this majority that "tends" to fabricate TCs.

[Espinosa]

Soren IS shaving off turns before the dump in a way; he contributes to the C7 rout (regardless of how few level-ups he may have received until then; 3-4 is not too unreasonable considering you just passed a defence map and you could realistically set up a kill on PP and one on EP for Soren if you try hard enough) which in my book is "turn-saving" enough (but honestly, this is such a buzzword).

Should priority in draft context correspond to the positioning on this tier list? I think we should assume a full team with units' probability depending on their utility and combat (as outlined in Vykan's FAQ), without assuming narrow specific strats and every single "good" character to be in play.

Probably not necessary, but I should also mention that conclusions Horakthi makes citing some of the points I may have made do not quite correspond to my own.

[Vykan_12]

I’ve been reading through the last 10 pages of the topic to see what you guys have been discussing recently. One argument that struck me as particularly odd was the topic of BEXP allocation, which is well summarized in the following post by narga:

I'm glad you understand. If you are being sarcastic, on the other hand, what is your bexp doing in chapters 8, 9, 10, and 11 if you are sitting on it rather than giving it to Mia? Going to waste, that's right. If you save, say, 400 bexp for Zihark and don't bother using it, that is 400 bexp that isn't helping you in chapters 8, 9, 10, 11. This communist BEXP ideal that some people seem to have is stupid and I was hoping most of the userbase had gotten over it. If Mia uses 1000 bexp from chapter 8 until Geoffrey shows up in chapter 25, is Geoffrey then entitled to immediately get 1000 bexp before you can make a "fair" comparison with Mia? No, because that's stupid.

Why are people acting like giving Mia a huge BEXP dump in C9 to save 1 turn doesn’t have adverse consequences for other units? Said BEXP could go towards getting Oscar a little more str, which could be the difference between ORKOing an armor with a steel axe vs a hand axe. It could be put towards Marcia so she caps str earlier, which improves her forged javelin offense. It could be saved for a unit like Astrid or Makalov so you have another high mobility terminator bot. Etc etc. And this is assuming your units are already in overkill status, which isn’t necessarily true this early in the game, in which case the BEXP matters even more.

It also seems that in many of these arguments long-term benefits aren’t considered. For example:

Warrior Boyd is just as valuable as Swordmaster Mia; neither cut any turns after 9.

Conversely, by BEXPing Boyd you get a 1-2 range monster sooner, and don’t have to give him as much resources in the future as maintenaince. You can’t act like assigning a bunch of BEXP to Soren or Mia is completely consequence free; it’s not significant, certainly, but it’s there.

And again in the Mia vs Zihark debate. If we agree that the highly specific C9 shove strat isn’t worth the BEXP dump, then clearly Zihark will be better over the long-term. There are more chapters to the game than 1-9 or 1-12 or whatever narrow frame you’re considering when these characters are compared.

It’s not just Mia vs Zihark either. I see this kind of lazy reasoning go on for many characters. It’s just boring to assume a team of paladins & fliers make everyone else almost entirely irrelevant for mid to endgame (except like, siege attacks & shoving) even if that’s technically true. Give lower tier units a proper comparison under the assumption that the team in play isn’t jesus tier (which will happen some %age of the time) so that differences in combat stats become actually relevant and not callously dismissed.

[dondon151]

Why are people acting like giving Mia a huge BEXP dump in C9 to save 1 turn doesn’t have adverse consequences for other units?

because in many cases, it doesn't. if it doesn't cost you a turn, there is "no" adverse consequence. examples that you brought up:

Said BEXP could go towards getting Oscar a little more str, which could be the difference between ORKOing an armor with a steel axe vs a hand axe.

it probably won't cost a turn if he doesn't.

It could be put towards Marcia so she caps str earlier, which improves her forged javelin offense.

also probably won't cost a turn (harder to argue, but this can probably be planned out on a micro scale).

It could be saved for a unit like Astrid or Makalov so you have another high mobility terminator bot.

neither will probably save a turn.

Conversely, by BEXPing Boyd you get a 1-2 range monster sooner, and don’t have to give him as much resources in the future as maintenaince. You can’t act like assigning a bunch of BEXP to Soren or Mia is completely consequence free; it’s not significant, certainly, but it’s there.

and whether boyd is a 1-2 range monster matters not in the least because that detail probably won't save any turns.

this is not lazy argumentation at all from a purely utilitarian perspective. whether you agree with the perspective or not is a different matter.

Edited October 20, 2013 by dondon151

[Vykan_12]

It's not just turn count you have to consider, even from a max efficiency perspective. It's reliability. For instance, in any scenario where any of your important combat units gets str screwed, BEXP compensates for that. If Mia or whoever takes a huge BEXP dump, it's depleting that very important reserve. Moreover, you can achieve the same turn count with more flexbility, with more possible strategies that can be used to achieve the same outcome.

[Narga_Rocks]

I think we started with random instead of fixed on this list, but I'm not sure where they stand now. If we are still on random, then it is certainly a point that relying on a stat being a certain level, or worse yet 2 or 3 stats, and it's each like a 50% chance of getting there, giving a couple of extra levels definitely has merit. It's like, really unlikely to have the requisite str and spd to kill something at the level averages tell you they'll have it. Sure, you could randomly get 4 more spd than you need, but that doesn't help much when you have a chance of falling one str short. If you have a 50/50 chance to get 12 str and 50% for 17 spd and you need both, you pretty much have a 25% chance of actually being able to kill the unit if you need both 12 str and 17 spd.

On the other hand, there are stat boosters at various points and you can use a forge more often on one character that got stat-screwed. Still, though, having a few extra levels is good.

And though I'm not sure why you quoted me there, it kinda works. That bexp spent on Mia for chapter 9 alone is never helping you afterwards. Unless you use her, that is, but lots of people say mount rush the game so not sure what Mia does with 7 move beyond that point. Now, the point dondon brought up is "does it actually cost you anything?" It most certainly costs in reliability, I'll give you that, but sadly lots of people here seem to value 4 turns at 70% much much higher than 5 turns at 99%, so I kinda stopped caring long ago. My soul was saddened by my fave characters being better at reliability than super-low turns and super-low turns taking precedent.

[MRDRHAWK]

If we're rigging stats on levels then anyone and everyone can too easily become OP as fuck. So, why then would we have a tier list, really? It'd basically be early-game mounts, early game footunits, mid-game mounts and so on. If we're only going by random, non-rigged statups, then I would think this tier list is pretty damn accurate (not speaking with bias just because Based Makarov is High Tier).

[-Cynthia-]

I always assumed random actually but would like to hear other opinions on the matter.

[BBM]

I think fixed is better. It makes for more reliability in strategies, allows you to better predict how strong characters are going to be at a certain time, and discourages rigging for stats. Yeah, I know fixed mode can be manipulated to get you extra stats too, but at least the assumption when tiering fixed is that this won't happen, so that you can keep the discussion to the expected stats rather than drift into what-ifs about people being screwed or blessed.

[Narga_Rocks]

If we're rigging stats on levels then anyone and everyone can too easily become OP as fuck. So, why then would we have a tier list, really? It'd basically be early-game mounts, early game footunits, mid-game mounts and so on. If we're only going by random, non-rigged statups, then I would think this tier list is pretty damn accurate (not speaking with bias just because Based Makarov is High Tier).

Who suggested rigging? The alternative was:

I think fixed is better. It makes for more reliability in strategies, allows you to better predict how strong characters are going to be at a certain time, and discourages rigging for stats. Yeah, I know fixed mode can be manipulated to get you extra stats too, but at least the assumption when tiering fixed is that this won't happen, so that you can keep the discussion to the expected stats rather than drift into what-ifs about people being screwed or blessed.

fixed mode, unique to this game.

[Vykan_12]

I dunno, every other game (and therefore tier list) has to cope with the random nature of level-ups. Having this list be based on fixed mode seems like a bit of a cop-out, especially when I'm like 90% sure hardly anyone ever uses it since people can't resist rigging at least some level-ups, especially in the base.

[Florete]

Levels can be rigged in Fixed mode, too. It's actually easier there.

I don't care either way, but I don't see how Fixed mode would be a "cop-out." Other games don't use it because other games don't have it.

[Hawk King]

As far as I know, most people play on fixed.

I never rig LVs on fixed cause it makes the stats funny. Some stats are 100% some are 0%.

Yes, drafters lie about their turncounts and then go to tier lists to draw attention to their bunk turncounts, where people will prove that they lied about their turncounts.

Way too may people theory craft without actually playing the game.

[Espinosa]

Some "interesting" applications for Fixed Mode BEXP abuse (assuming you invest 1 bexp a time):

Titania

@Knight Band/Wyvern Band

-Hammer/Heavy Spear

for a level up of HP, str, skl, spd, def and res.

Only good in theory though, considering Titania is one of the last units to require BEXP dumps and will get most of her levels from combat.

Sothe

@nothing

-nothing

for a level up of everything sans mag.

Good for RD transfers.

Ike

@Soldier/Wyvern/Knight Band

-Silver Sword/Armorslayer

for a level up of HP, str, skl, spd, and def.

Needs to choose between def and res. Early BEXP dumps into Ike sound weird because he's waiting for his promotion for a long time, but once promoted, you can rig those def level-ups so that your absolute lowest turn strats require neither a magic sword Ike nor a Soren on steroids.

Makalov

@Knight Band/Wyvern Band

- Iron Sword

for a level up of HP, str, skl, spd, and def.

10 levels of 1 bexp increments give you a 20/1 Makalov with the following stats: 43 HP 21 str 19 skl 22 spd 8 lck 22 def 5 res. If you have a lot of free time on your hands, you get an absurd walloping beast for a pretty reasonable amount of BEXP (1201 + a seal). This is relevant information because Makalov hardly fights in his join time map and would appreciate an investment after the desert (which coincidentally is a wealthy source of extra BEXP). The "hit" to luck and res stats is barely noticeable (considering how low the growths are) and should not play any visible role.

In contrast with Makalov, Kieran cannot BEXP abuse both speed and defence level-ups at the same time, and Oscar cannot rig defence at all.

Tormod

@Pegasus/Priest Band

-Bolganone

for a level up of HP, mag, skl, spd, and res.

An abused 20/1 Tormod would look like this: 37 HP, 4 str, 24 mag, 24 skl, 24 spd, 8 lck, 6 def, 24 res. The loss of 4 luck is minor at worst, while the enormous HP more than compensates for losing 3 points of defence. The loss of 2-3 str matters less when you look at that speed stat. You need 1502 BEXP + a seal to make this magical boy yours.

Only problem is that even if you have both the Arms Scrolls, I think you can't get A rank fire for Bolganone (which grants +mag/spd) with an unpromoted Tormod, plus Bolganone only comes in C22. So in practice, the 24 res is more like 11 res but I'm sure Tormod won't mind too much.

What else... There's Shinon who can abuse everything besides mag, luck and res (because there's no such thing as a Slim Bow; however, our page makes no note about Longbow/Laguz Bow modifiers so there just might be a way to level res as well).

Brom, Gatrie and Devdan are all easy to abuse, but don't expect any res. Geoffrey can get everything besides mag and luck with a multitude of setups. Calill has a 40% growth in defence but no tomes provide +def so no defence level-ups for her (+hp/mag/skl/spd is easy to figure out).

Hmm that's pretty neat.

[Zkirsche]

Wow didn't even notice that this topic was still going.

I say we stick to random for the sake of tradition and not having to make changes simply based on the change. Also RNG makes things more interesting and is much more fun to argue and theorycraft with. The more arbitrariness the better discussion possibilities.

Was Neph --> Mid a recent change? Might dig that up because as a veteran that just looks so jarring.

Edit: Ok so I searched Nephenee and saw a couple of comparisons to Marcia, which are completely irrelevant considering that Marcia is 2nd highest on the list whereas Neph was only upper mid, and then someone suggests Neph mid and the change is made. Not sure I like that.

The only big thing the mages have over her is meteor use, which I guess is a thing but I'm not convinced that it's a tier difference. There are big advantages between Neph and the myrms including that she is a lot more reliable in both str and durability and she gets vantage in chapter 14 whereas Mia gets it in a chest in chapter 18. In addition, she has 1-2 range so having her as a regular combatant is actually viable.

People seem to be endorsing a dump onto the mages but when we can do the exact same thing with Neph to get a second Ike with 1-2 range I don't see much of a problem with throwing some Neph's way, especially as the bexp on the mages is almost exclusively for lategame meteor usage. We'd see more immediate return by giving it to Neph over the mages and we have Calill for meteor anyway. (Not to mention, the two support each other so actually playing both is a thing).

Edit2: Also, if we're using Mist then this bexp dump that we're assuming goes into the mages to make them usable will be significantly less, and Neph needs the bexp less because she has existant durability.

Edited October 21, 2013 by kirsche

[General Banzai]

my theory untested hypothesis is fuck siege tomers, it's simpler to beat the game just pally rushing and you dont need all this convoluted gobbedlygook to beat the game a couple turns faster

Was Neph --> Mid a recent change? Might dig that up because as a veteran that just looks so jarring.

as a vet i was the one suggesting it

there just isn't much demand in this game for a foot unit, especially one who joins underleveled and requires the oh-so-coveted "CHAPTER 9 BEXP DUMP" (except like, on chapter 11 or whatever) to get her start

we're talking here about resource dumps onto a mediocre unit to get an inferior unit

sounds pretty middling to me

Edited October 21, 2013 by General Banzai

[Zkirsche]

my theory untested hypothesis is fuck siege tomers

Something being too complicated is not a reason to ignore it entirely.

there just isn't much demand in this game for a foot unit, especially one who joins underleveled and requires the oh-so-coveted "CHAPTER 9 BEXP DUMP" (except like, on chapter 11 or whatever) to get her start

There isn't any demand for anyone outside of the units in top outside of the earlygame yet we can't just ignore decent units because better units exist, otherwise we'd have "Usable Tier" and the "Not usable tier" which is incredibly dull.

Sure she'll be our 3rd string foot unit (in terms of actual combat she's better than Ike because of 1-2 range so more like 2nd string), but on the other hand she's our 2nd string foot unit! In a game where many characters are on foot that is pretty good and "middle of the pack" is not quite an adequate way of representing that.

we're talking here about resource dumps onto a mediocre unit to get an inferior unit

sounds pretty middling to me

We do the same for Makalov/Astrid to get weaker a weaker form Oscar/Kieran. If I'm not using Boyd, I have Nephenee who can do his job almost as well. The myrms cannot make the same claim to fame.

Also I don't have time to look at the numbers right now, but I'm pretty sure she doesn't need as much BEXP as most other units that do. She'll probably need less than Astrid/Makalov, and definitely less than the likes of the mages. Especially given a forge.

[Espinosa]

Foot units have "unique utility" in that fliers cannot carry cavalry in this game. It matters for only like 3 or so maps, but it's not like they're SOL to see any combat in the other chapters. Nepenthe shouldn't be any higher than potential siege tome users though (besides Rhys).

[Redwall]

I say we stick to random for the sake of tradition and not having to make changes simply based on the change. Also RNG makes things more interesting and is much more fun to argue and theorycraft with. The more arbitrariness the better discussion possibilities.

Since you can use binomial distributions to obtain exact expressions for the probabilities of reaching certain stat benchmarks in random mode, I wouldn't say that this is more fun to argue with (if anything, it's less fun and more work), or that it's more arbitrary.

[-Cynthia-]

The chapters that are harder to paladin rush for whatever reason (C20, C21, C22, C23, C25 come to mind) are the ones where siege toming is primarily useful. Nephenee is a pretty good foot unit with some BEXP but there are really only a few times this comes in handy unfortunately.

Boyd and Ike are now at the bottom of High tier,