-Cynthia-

FE9 Tier list v3

3724 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Snowy_One said:

Dumb question, but why is Elincia so high? She joins late and, IIRC, has only two chapters of which one is the final. She joins a 20/1 and her stats are even that good if you BEXP her to 20/20. By the time you get her you have literally every other flier in the game and it's not like her supports are anything special. So what does she do that puts her above, say, Largo who at least exists?

She has instant access to the Rescue staff. Her being a flier, i'm sure you know why that is such a good thing. Plus that late in the game, any and all available Bexp can be dumped on her without taking away from anyone else.

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Yeah and when you think about who's below her it really doesn't take a lot of utility to be better than them.

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4 hours ago, Hawk King said:

She has instant access to the Rescue staff. Her being a flier, i'm sure you know why that is such a good thing. Plus that late in the game, any and all available Bexp can be dumped on her without taking away from anyone else.

Ignoring that I disagree with the notion of taking away from others... so what? Her window of actually being around is very small. Her stats are really kind of bad and, like I said, by the point she comes we've had access to Marcia, Tanith, Jill, Haar, Ulki, and Janaff for much longer for out flying needs. Compare that to, say, Rolf who's been around for the entire game contributing with kills, Shinon's possible assistance pre-leaving, or Ulki being able to rescue people for much longer and I'd think them higher.

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9 minutes ago, Snowy_One said:

Her window of actually being around is very small. Her stats are really kind of bad and, like I said, by the point she comes we've had access to Marcia, Tanith, Jill, Haar, Ulki, and Janaff for much longer for out flying needs.

None of them can use Staffs. Specifically the Rescue Staff. She isn't competing with them for anything so their existence doesn't matter to her.

 

13 minutes ago, Snowy_One said:

Compare that to, say, Rolf who's been around for the entire game contributing with kills, Shinon's possible assistance pre-leaving, or Ulki being able to rescue people for much longer and I'd think them higher.

The problem with Rolf is that every single unit who can use Axes or Lances can kill better than he can with little to no investment. Early-game Bexp is much more valuable than Late-game Bexp. Rolf however should at the very least be "King of Bottom Tier". He does potentially have unique utility in restricted playthroughs. I would go as far as to say above Largo.

Shinon's contributions in his limited action Pre-Chapter 8 are pretty significant, but he is forced after all, and he is worse than Rolf by the time you get him back, if you even bother to go through the hassle of re-recruiting him.

Ulki is trash. Even in draft play I don't think he is ever rescuing anyone, and he would need the coveted Demi Band to do so anyway.

Elincia has unique utility. There are no other units in the game who can fly and use the Rescue Staff. And even where the flight doesn't matter, she has 1 more movement than Mist.

 

Ranulf and Elincia should probably switch spots, but thats about it.

 

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Elincia's combat is pretty bad, but using the Rescue staff without any investment is better than what a number of other units can do. I can see Ranulf over her, I'll make that change.

Part of the issue with using Rolf isn't just that his combat is bad at base and that he needs significant amounts of BEXP to contribute, but also that he also potentially slows down completion of maps because he has no EP offense against most enemy types. I have trouble thinking of many teams where Rolf makes significant contributions- is he even better than an Ike solo?

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Posted (edited)

I still think that's really a bit of an overstatement of its value. I mean, sure, the other units might not add much, but it's multiple chapters of not adding much that add up as opposed to Elincia for one or two chapters. By the way, I don't see how Elincia has a monopoly on the rescue staff. She may not be competing with other fliers for the staff but Mist, Rhys, Soren, Ilyana, and Tormod both can and may very well have used it/used it up. It seems very shaky to base an entire tier standing on a single limited item not having been broken. Shame, because I really do like Elincia, but I really don't feel that her limited use merits her standing.

Also, about Rolf... Please, understand that I'm not calling him 'good' by any means, but have you looked at his stats? At level 7 Nephenee has 22 HP, 8 STR, 2 MAG, 10 SKL, 11 SPD, 6 LCK, 9 DEF, and 3 RES. For comparison Rolf at the same level has (rounded) 22 HP, 7 STR, 1 MAG, 11 SKL, 9 SPD, 6 LCK, 7.5 DEF, an 3.5 RES. Sure, recruitment Neph has the edge, but not by much. 1 STR, 1 MAG (woooo), 2 SPD, 1-2 DEF and Rolf leads her in SKL by 1 and maybe RES by 1. Bows, while not the best, are also not quiet as sucky as people make them out to be. If you use and invest in him he's going to end up more or less on-par with her stat-wise.

Yes, Nephenee has lances, and bows can't counter at close range, but it seems REALLY harsh and unfair to cram him down to the bottom of the list as a result.

Edited by Snowy_One

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On 2017-5-28 at 2:46 PM, Snowy_One said:

So glad I swore off debating in future games as now I'm free to enjoy Felicia and Faye without worrying about tier rankings. 

Nobody is telling you how to play or who to use. Why would you worry about tier rankings when playing a game?

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9 hours ago, Snowy_One said:

I still think that's really a bit of an overstatement of its value. I mean, sure, the other units might not add much, but it's multiple chapters of not adding much that add up as opposed to Elincia for one or two chapters. By the way, I don't see how Elincia has a monopoly on the rescue staff. She may not be competing with other fliers for the staff but Mist, Rhys, Soren, Ilyana, and Tormod both can and may very well have used it/used it up. It seems very shaky to base an entire tier standing on a single limited item not having been broken. Shame, because I really do like Elincia, but I really don't feel that her limited use merits her standing.

Also, about Rolf... Please, understand that I'm not calling him 'good' by any means, but have you looked at his stats? At level 7 Nephenee has 22 HP, 8 STR, 2 MAG, 10 SKL, 11 SPD, 6 LCK, 9 DEF, and 3 RES. For comparison Rolf at the same level has (rounded) 22 HP, 7 STR, 1 MAG, 11 SKL, 9 SPD, 6 LCK, 7.5 DEF, an 3.5 RES. Sure, recruitment Neph has the edge, but not by much. 1 STR, 1 MAG (woooo), 2 SPD, 1-2 DEF and Rolf leads her in SKL by 1 and maybe RES by 1. Bows, while not the best, are also not quiet as sucky as people make them out to be. If you use and invest in him he's going to end up more or less on-par with her stat-wise.

Yes, Nephenee has lances, and bows can't counter at close range, but it seems REALLY harsh and unfair to cram him down to the bottom of the list as a result.

You keep complaining about units positions but you haven't proposed where you think they should be. How low do you think Elincia should move and how high do you think Rolf should be?

I definitely agree that Rolf should be moved up. I've talked about unique contributions that he can make and I have even said where I think he should be placed. You just say that it is unfair to put him so low. And that comparison to Nephenee just makes him look worse LOL. "If we invest Bexp into Rolf he can have inferrior stats to Nephenee at her base level and he lacks 1 range combat!" Not to mention, Nephenee is a unit who needs to be invested in to make use out of her, so comparing Rolf to base Nephenee is pointless.

 

I think Gatrie and Brom are both too high. And why the hell is Geoffrey between them??? Neither armor can make any sort of unique contributions, and they have 1 less movement than all of the infantry units. They should both drop down to Low below Elincia. Then Janaff and Ranulf should take their places in Lower-Mid below Devdan.

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I would personally place Elincia between Shinon and Tauro. Shinon can offer some very good use early game that isn't tied to one specific item or strategy while Tauro comes late and is pretty bleh all around with Resolve being really the only thing in his favor. As for Rolf... Ehhh... I don't know. Because, like I said, his stats are actually pretty good and his problem is more with his weapon-typing. If the list wasn't super-focused on efficiency I'd say he might be worth putting in lower mid since, well, we're not idiots. We are people who play the game and are capable of using both basic thought processes and strategy and doing so drastically reduces the issue of his countering. After all, it's only an issue if we don't kill everything in reach by the EP and what's left is in range to hit Rolf, which can be drastically reduced by just keeping him near basically any other unit. It takes 3-4 movement (depending on how you want to count it) to move from in front of another unit in front of Rolf to being beside him to attack and if you reached that situation in the EP without killing you're more likely being negligent than anything. Several other units either can't counter at all till promotion (Rhys and Mist), can't counter close-range till promotion (Astrid), or spends half the map unable to fight at all without a specific item (Laguz) and not even then if the player fields more than one who isn't Reyson. So I think maybe the whole 'can't counter at one range' is being blown a wee bit out of proportion. But I'm not sure where I'd suggest moving him as a result because everyone has been 'lolbows' for so long.

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, Hawk King said:

I think Gatrie and Brom are both too high. And why the hell is Geoffrey between them??? Neither armor can make any sort of unique contributions, and they have 1 less movement than all of the infantry units. They should both drop down to Low below Elincia. Then Janaff and Ranulf should take their places in Lower-Mid below Devdan.

I think the thing here was that Gatrie and Brom both have potentially better combat than Devdan (can reliably ORKO due to high Str and doubling with KW+BEXP) and Devdan's Mov advantage is only one. It's possible that this list is also just being too generous to Devdan who really is pretty bad even with Hard Mode's enemies being low quality. Gatrie also has some earlygame use- more than Shinon IMO since he can see a fair amount of EP on C7. 

Edited by -Cynthia-

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, -Cynthia- said:

Gatrie also has some earlygame use- more than Shinon IMO since he can see a fair amount of EP on C7.

I was going to say that I think contributions made Pre-Chapter 8/9 should be weighted less than the mid and late game contributions. Of course Gatrie and Shinon are great before they leave but they are forced and they are literally no other options.

9 hours ago, -Cynthia- said:

I think the thing here was that Gatrie and Brom both have potentially better combat than Devdan (can reliably ORKO due to high Str and doubling with KW+BEXP) and Devdan's Mov advantage is only one.

Well than Devdan should probably move down with them. How much Bexp do we need to pump into them to make their Speed stats on par or better than Devdans? Their low Mov also comes with higher Movement costs through terrain. Surely even Rolf is a better option to spend Bexp on.

 

This is how I think the bottom 3 tiers should be:

Spoiler

 

Lower-Mid

Sothe
Haar
Janaff - turn 1 transformation, can fly, and can shove what he needs to.
Ranulf - extremely competent fighter who requires zero investment, can shove anything.

Rolf - the best non-flier option for 17-2 and 17-4, a really good boss killer with his Sniper class bonus of +15% crit. Early recruitment means plenty of time to feed him random kills to get him to where he needs to be while giving him minimal Bexp.

Elincia - extremely good utility as a flying staff wielder albeit for and extremely limited amount of time.

Low

Gatrie
Brom - these three are some of the worst options for what they do. They are only ahead of Largo and Tauro because of availability.
Devdan

Largo
Tauroneo

Geoffrey - Recruitment is extremely late. He is the 6th mount in the game. You only need 4 fliers/mounts in any map so with 4 fliers and 5 mounts ahead of him, shove bots are actually more useful to fill in remaining deployment spots.


Bottom

Shinon - His early-game shouldn't be over-valued. Chapter 7 is the only map where his contributions can actually save a turn. Once he returns he doesn't do anything unique.
Ulki
Bastian

Lucia
Nasir
Ena

 

 

Edited by Hawk King

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Well if you want me to do it that way, here's what I'd suggest...

Lower Mid

Sothe
Haar
Gatrie
Geoffrey
Brom

Rolf - I'm really not sure about this and am really more of spitballing here, but like I said, he's got some decent stats and availability. While he might not be that useful when going balls-to-the-wall minimum turn he still has some solid player-phase offense and his weaknesses may be a bit overstated. I'd like to do a bit more insight before 'finalizing' this though.

Devdan

Low

Janaff
Ranulf
Largo
Shinon

Elincia - As previously mentioned, I feel that the position is too tied to one specific item and one specific strategy. What if the Rescue staff is used up? What if they don't use it? I kinda feel that's a bit too circumstantial.

Bottom

Tauroneo - I feel like the only reason he's even worth a glance is Resolve (which can be given to other units albet after 27). Otherwise his stats are pretty bad for a knight, he's too high-level to really use the KW, and he's stuck with knight movement. So in order to make him 'decent' we need to get him down to half health then have him run around with merely average speed at best, knights movement, and strength that's pretty overkill most of the time. Why not just take basically any other unit?
Ulki
Bastian
Lucia
Nasir
Ena

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Posted (edited)

20 hours ago, Hawk King said:

This is how I think the bottom 3 tiers should be:

Think you're being a bit rough on Geoffrey. We aren't assuming optimal team deployment, so in a team without many fliers and mounts Geoffrey is a significantly better than most of your other options.

I don't get the Rolf love at all. He isn't automatically useful just because he exists for a long time and we can dump BEXP into him IMO- even in a non-optimal team comp we can just give it to anyone else and they'll outperform him because of being able to do Enemy Phase. What sort of team do we need for Rolf for his 'unique contributions' (2 range combat? A lot of units can do that.) to even matter?

Edited by -Cynthia-

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I don't 'love Rolf'. Playing other FE games (especially heroes) let me stop and think for a bit. Is Rolf really *that* bad? Sure, he doesn't do anything that, say, Nephenee couldn't do without his one-range issue, but just because he can't counter close-ranged attacks should he be co-signed to the bottom of the list? Ranged damage has its uses, such as weaking up a tough foe before melee moves in for the kill, but that's not why I'm suggesting the rise. I'm suggesting it because, honestly, he doesn't seem to be anywhere near as bad as people seemed to think before. He's not going to be as overpowering as the paladins, but that's why I'm not suggesting he move up to upper-mid or the like. His contributions don't really have to be unique, just GOOD. Besides, with a ranged weapon he gets automatic effectiveness against all fliers. Are we seriously going to laugh off something like that just because the paladins with a forge and their supports don't have a problem? If so maybe the list has become so focused on the high-end units that maybe it can't be trusted for anything else. I don't think Rolf is great, just maybe worth giving a second look and maybe re-examining how the list treats at least bow users. As I said, multiple units have times where they can't counter either at one range or at all and get ranked highly, so is it really fair to shove Rolf into the bottom as a result?

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Posted (edited)

58 minutes ago, Snowy_One said:

I don't 'love Rolf'. Playing other FE games (especially heroes) let me stop and think for a bit. Is Rolf really *that* bad? Sure, he doesn't do anything that, say, Nephenee couldn't do without his one-range issue, but just because he can't counter close-ranged attacks should he be co-signed to the bottom of the list? Ranged damage has its uses, such as weaking up a tough foe before melee moves in for the kill, but that's not why I'm suggesting the rise. I'm suggesting it because, honestly, he doesn't seem to be anywhere near as bad as people seemed to think before.

Chip damage is pretty useless by the time Rolf joins because of how easy it is to get to ORKO status on Hard Mode. Even if you ignore 'top tiers' Titania/Marcia/Oscar or whatever, Ike/Boyd/Soren/Ilyana/Lethe etc. can all ORKO with none or relatively minimal BEXP investment.

He's not going to be as overpowering as the paladins, but that's why I'm not suggesting he move up to upper-mid or the like. His contributions don't really have to be unique, just GOOD.

What is "good" about Rolf's contributions? 5 base Strength and 6 base speed are worse offensive bases than units had back in Chapter 1. Yeah I guess we can shove BEXP into him to get a unit that can kill stuff- but the lack of EP makes this a bad investment.

Besides, with a ranged weapon he gets automatic effectiveness against all fliers. Are we seriously going to laugh off something like that just because the paladins with a forge and their supports don't have a problem?

Only 2x effectiveness, he can't ORKO Ravens anyway since he won't double them. And yes, units with forges being able to kill all fliers on the EP makes a unit who might be able to kill one on the PP pretty irrelevant- this isn't limited to top tier units since even Myrms and stuff can ORKO fliers. 

If so maybe the list has become so focused on the high-end units that maybe it can't be trusted for anything else. I don't think Rolf is great, just maybe worth giving a second look and maybe re-examining how the list treats at least bow users.

Even if you remove the top tiers, the mid/upper mid units still make Rolf irrelevant IMO. 

As I said, multiple units have times where they can't counter either at one range or at all and get ranked highly, so is it really fair to shove Rolf into the bottom as a result?

Every unit in the game can counter at 1 range (a few need to promote I suppose) except Rolf and Shinon. If Rolf got axes and a mount on promotion like Astrid he would be a lot better.

Overall, I'm still going to stand by the point that Rolf's availability is being overrated here. His stats are fixable with investment, but the 2 range lock isn't and it's not a worthwhile investment unless you're on a team that's not using almost anyone else available at the time. 

Edited by -Cynthia-

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Posted (edited)

Chip damage is pretty useless by the time Rolf joins because of how easy it is to get to ORKO status on Hard Mode. Even if you ignore 'top tiers' Titania/Marcia/Oscar or whatever, Ike/Boyd/Soren/Ilyana/Lethe etc. can all ORKO with none or relatively minimal BEXP investment.

 Sure, but I think you're missing the point. This is something that Rolf can do innately simply because his weapon has this two range capability. Lance and axe users need to use a hand axe/javelin to do this and sword users are SOL unless they're one of the very few who can wield the ranged weapons. I'm not saying this is some 'amazing' utility, but to have this potential built in innately is certainly worth SOMETHING! Melee users at the least have to expend extra movement and take a counter.

What is "good" about Rolf's contributions? 5 base Strength and 6 base speed are worse offensive bases than units had back in Chapter 1. Yeah I guess we can shove BEXP into him to get a unit that can kill stuff- but the lack of EP makes this a bad investment.

Honestly... No. Like I pointed out before, his stats, while not some godsend, are actually pretty good. But, more importantly, players are bumbling morons. They're capable of thinking, avoiding unfavorable risks and taking advantage of favorable ones. An EP only matters if there are enemies around who can attack Rolf, and since the units who lack EP's aren't suddenly worthless it's pretty clear you know, at least on some level, that this can be worked with. You're being way too hard on a shortcoming here and ignoring it on other units.

Only 2x effectiveness, he can't ORKO Ravens anyway since he won't double them. And yes, units with forges being able to kill all fliers on the EP makes a unit who might be able to kill one on the PP pretty irrelevant- this isn't limited to top tier units since even Myrms and stuff can ORKO fliers.

Yes. And? That turns an iron bow into being a flipping SILVER SWORD basically! His starting bow is basically a silver axe! But let's take a look. The slowest Raven in this chapter has 13 AS. Since you need 4 more to double this means you need 17 speed in order to double. Ike doesn't get this till level 19-20, Titania until level 6-7, Oscar until 20/1, Boyd until level 20/5, Rhys until 20/9, Soren until 20/1, Mia until 12, Ilyana until 20/6, Marcia until 15-16, Mist until 20/1, Rolf until 20/1, Lethe until 9, Mordi until 14-15, Volke until 16, Keiran until 20/1, Brom until level 20/12 or 20/20, Neph until 17-18, and Zihark till level 13. While maybe one or two of these units might get to the point of doubling, what the hell are you feeding them if doubling for a 1RKO is 'normal'? And this is the SLOWEST raven! It seems safe to say that you won't be getting more than 1-2 attacks with most units not named Mia or Zihark and maybe Lethe. So really all this argument says is 'I dump tons of BEXP on singular units and Rolf can't compete when I shoot units up to promotion'. Your units get one shot to attack and having someone wielding what is basically a silver weapon, especially one that doesn't take up one of the limited Laguz slayers, seems pretty damned useful! Heck, a level 1 Rolf deals 21 damage with his bow. That's roughly 10-11 damage average. For comparison Oscar needs to be level 11-12 to do that much with a steel lance. Nevermind if we forge Rolf a bow. At level 1 with a forged Iron Bow that's a whopping 27 MT! 31 if we assume he's level 10. For comparison Ike with the Laguz Slayer would need to hit level 16-17 to compare. I really don't see how Rolf's effectiveness against fliers can be just brushed aside like it's nothing because 'other units can 1RKO' when it seems said units are either SM's, Laguz, or the like and most everyone is hitting just once. 

Even if you remove the top tiers, the mid/upper mid units still make Rolf irrelevant IMO.

Only if you really squint hard and ignore a lot.

Every unit in the game can counter at 1 range (a few need to promote I suppose) except Rolf and Shinon. If Rolf got axes and a mount on promotion like Astrid he would be a lot better.

Yet that didn't affect their ranking. Rhys, Mist, and Astrid can't counter until promotion so before then they're in the same boat as Rolf, yet all are mid and higher. Reyson can't counter at all (HA!) and he's stupidly high. The laguz either need the band or will have to work with shifting in and out of countering at 1 range and not being able to counter anything at all (so pray you don't field 2). 

Once again, I'm not saying Rolf is some godly unit whom you should bow down and worship or anything like that. Just that, maybe, the 'no EP 1-range counter' is being blown a bit out of proportion here and unfairly punishing an otherwise not terrible unit.

Edited by Snowy_One

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8 hours ago, -Cynthia- said:

What sort of team do we need for Rolf for his 'unique contributions' (2 range combat? A lot of units can do that.) to even matter?

Any team without Marcia or Jill for the 17-2 and 17-4 strats. Any team composition at all for boss kills.

Forget chip damage, Rolf is actually a 1RKO machine. He is light enough to be shoved by every single shover/smiter in the game and has Longbow access for unparalleled range. In 17-2 and 17-4, he can be shoved through the swamps allowing for him to move just as far as the 2 fliers can (potentially farther). IIRC he needs the Longbow to kill Oliver in 17-4, so no other low Con units can be substituted for the strategy. With a Killer bow, he has extremely high reliability for killing bosses. Having an enemy phase only matters for Rout objectives, and the player should be able to keep him in a position where Rolf won't wind up being a liability on those maps.

In a draft, I had Oscar and Tanith and I actually used Rolf to kill Homasa for a 2 turn clear because he was the most reliable option. 

The healers have only one redeeming quality, and that is their ability to use the Rescue staff to save turns. If there was no Rescue staff, Rhy, Mist, and Elincia would all be down with Nasir and Ena. And the Mages would all be at least a full tier lower. Rolf's potential to shine in those few Chapters far outweighs anything that the likes of Gatrie, Brom, Devdan, Geoffrey and the others that I placed him ahead of will ever do.

 

8 hours ago, -Cynthia- said:

Think you're being a bit rough on Geoffrey. We aren't assuming optimal team deployment, so in a team without many fliers and mounts Geoffrey is a significantly better than most of your other options.

No, no he is not. In any draft, all 5 participant will have sub-optimal team deployment. For experienced players who know what they are doing, Geoffrey is almost always taken in the last 2 rounds. And he is NEVER taken before the likes of Brom, Devdan, Janaff, Ranulf, and even Rolf. Geoffrey has 4 Chapters to work with (one of which is Wrath + Resolved by Ike), and he is really nothing special. Mount/Flier rushes with transformed Reyson actually only require three 9 Mov units to work so the cut for Geoff to make it is even tighter. Plus all of Geoff's maps potentially have the superior Rescue staff strategy available to us which lowers his chances of contributing even further. Of all the Mounts he is the only one who cannot use Axes which hurts him because most tough late-game enemies have Lances or Axes.

The only way he can be better than those other units is if we have an absurdly limited team composition. More than 9 times out of 10 though, Geoffrey is just there to fill a non-essential spot.

 

As a disclaimer, draft rulesets have fixed amounts of Bexp that you can dump into characters. Every character has an "initial dump" they are allowed upon recruitment, and they are only allowed 50 Bexp for every map after that. So there is no extreme amounts of favoritism or unreasonable resource allocations.

Rolf is only allowed to cap his current level and then gain 7 more levels in his initial dump. (He will be level 9 or 10 at the start of Chapter 10.)

 

9 hours ago, -Cynthia- said:

I don't get the Rolf love at all.

I'm not saying Rolf is amazing or anything like that. I think the bottom 14 units in this game are all extremely terrible. But of them all, He and Elincia are the only two that can actually do something that units in the upper Tiers cannot do. I think Rolf has a slight edge over Elincia but they can go either way.

A Tier List should rank the characters based on their maximum potential to contribute without excessive favoritism. Rolf has more potential than 12 other units and possibly Elincia as well.

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8 hours ago, -Cynthia- said:

What sort of team do we need for Rolf for his 'unique contributions' (2 range combat? A lot of units can do that.) to even matter?

Any team without Marcia or Jill for the 17-2 and 17-4 strats. Any team composition at all for boss kills.

Forget chip damage, Rolf is actually a 1RKO machine. He is light enough to be shoved by every single shover/smiter in the game and has Longbow access for unparalleled range. In 17-2 and 17-4, he can be shoved through the swamps allowing for him to move just as far as the 2 fliers can (potentially farther). IIRC he needs the Longbow to kill Oliver in 17-4, so no other low Con units can be substituted for the strategy. With a Killer bow, he has extremely high reliability for killing bosses. Having an enemy phase only matters for Rout objectives, and the player should be able to keep him in a position where Rolf won't wind up being a liability on those maps.

In a draft, I had Oscar and Tanith and I actually used Rolf to kill Homasa for a 2 turn clear because he was the most reliable option. 

The healers have only one redeeming quality, and that is their ability to use the Rescue staff to save turns. If there was no Rescue staff, Rhy, Mist, and Elincia would all be down with Nasir and Ena. And the Mages would all be at least a full tier lower. Rolf's potential to shine in those few Chapters far outweighs anything that the likes of Gatrie, Brom, Devdan, Geoffrey and the others that I placed him ahead of will ever do.

 

8 hours ago, -Cynthia- said:

Think you're being a bit rough on Geoffrey. We aren't assuming optimal team deployment, so in a team without many fliers and mounts Geoffrey is a significantly better than most of your other options.

No, no he is not. In any draft, all 5 participant will have sub-optimal team deployment. For experienced players who know what they are doing, Geoffrey is almost always taken in the last 2 rounds. And he is NEVER taken before the likes of Brom, Devdan, Janaff, Ranulf, and even Rolf. Geoffrey has 4 Chapters to work with (one of which is Wrath + Resolved by Ike), and he is really nothing special. Mount/Flier rushes with transformed Reyson actually only require three 9 Mov units to work so the cut for Geoff to make it is even tighter. Plus all of Geoff's maps potentially have the superior Rescue staff strategy available to us which lowers his chances of contributing even further. Of all the Mounts he is the only one who cannot use Axes which hurts him because most tough late-game enemies have Lances or Axes.

The only way he can be better than those other units is if we have an absurdly limited team composition. More than 9 times out of 10 though, Geoffrey is just there to fill a non-essential spot.

 

As a disclaimer, draft rulesets have fixed amounts of Bexp that you can dump into characters. Every character has an "initial dump" they are allowed upon recruitment, and they are only allowed 50 Bexp for every map after that. So there is no extreme amounts of favoritism or unreasonable resource allocations.

Rolf is only allowed to cap his current level and then gain 7 more levels in his initial dump. (He will be level 9 or 10 at the start of Chapter 10.)

 

9 hours ago, -Cynthia- said:

I don't get the Rolf love at all.

I'm not saying Rolf is amazing or anything like that. I think the bottom 14 units in this game are all extremely terrible. But of them all, He and Elincia are the only two that can actually do something that units in the upper Tiers cannot do. I think Rolf has a slight edge over Elincia but they can go either way.

A Tier List should rank the characters based on their maximum potential to contribute without excessive favoritism. Rolf has more potential than 12 other units and possibly Elincia as well.

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Posted (edited)

33 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

Any team without Marcia or Jill for the 17-2 and 17-4 strats. Any team composition at all for boss kills.

Forget chip damage, Rolf is actually a 1RKO machine. He is light enough to be shoved by every single shover/smiter in the game and has Longbow access for unparalleled range. In 17-2 and 17-4, he can be shoved through the swamps allowing for him to move just as far as the 2 fliers can (potentially farther). IIRC he needs the Longbow to kill Oliver in 17-4, so no other low Con units can be substituted for the strategy. With a Killer bow, he has extremely high reliability for killing bosses. Having an enemy phase only matters for Rout objectives, and the player should be able to keep him in a position where Rolf won't wind up being a liability on those maps.

Any low Con unit can be Shoved in 17-2 though right? Doesn't Rolf get slowed down on his way to the Arrive square because he can't counter things?

I guess Rolf would be able to target Oliver a turn earlier due to the Longbow range, but don't foot units need to go the long way around instead of through the trees? Rolf still needs other units who can clear out the enemies blocking the way. I guess this is something though, even if only a turn.

In a draft, I had Oscar and Tanith and I actually used Rolf to kill Homasa for a 2 turn clear because he was the most reliable option. 

Seems kinda odd since Rolf needs to be level 20/12-13 to double Homasa. Tanith does it at base and Oscar does it at like 20/5 with KW access or something. 

No, no he is not. In any draft, all 5 participant will have sub-optimal team deployment. For experienced players who know what they are doing, Geoffrey is almost always taken in the last 2 rounds. And he is NEVER taken before the likes of Brom, Devdan, Janaff, Ranulf, and even Rolf. Geoffrey has 4 Chapters to work with (one of which is Wrath + Resolved by Ike), and he is really nothing special. Mount/Flier rushes with transformed Reyson actually only require three 9 Mov units to work so the cut for Geoff to make it is even tighter. Plus all of Geoff's maps potentially have the superior Rescue staff strategy available to us which lowers his chances of contributing even further. Of all the Mounts he is the only one who cannot use Axes which hurts him because most tough late-game enemies have Lances or Axes.

The only way he can be better than those other units is if we have an absurdly limited team composition. More than 9 times out of 10 though, Geoffrey is just there to fill a non-essential spot.

The non-optimal team composition does make things tricky. Drafts tend to use a smaller team than they need to which I think favors high availability more than I was assuming. Depends on what all we mean by 'non-optimal' I guess.

I'm not saying Rolf is amazing or anything like that. I think the bottom 14 units in this game are all extremely terrible. But of them all, He and Elincia are the only two that can actually do something that units in the upper Tiers cannot do. I think Rolf has a slight edge over Elincia but they can go either way.

A Tier List should rank the characters based on their maximum potential to contribute without excessive favoritism. Rolf has more potential than 12 other units and possibly Elincia as well.

I dunno, a lot of this seems like the "Mia is better because she can Shove Ike in one chapter" stuff, although the bottom tiers are more limited. Even so, I think a unit like Gatrie/Brom who can regularly contribute on rout maps (while Rolf just hopes not to slow us down) is probably better overall.

Snowy, IDK if I have time to respond to all your stuff you and Hawk King pretty much have no arguments in common.

Edited by -Cynthia-

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8 hours ago, -Cynthia- said:

I dunno, a lot of this seems like the "Mia is better because she can Shove Ike in one chapter" stuff, although the bottom tiers are more limited. Even so, I think a unit like Gatrie/Brom who can regularly contribute on rout maps (while Rolf just hopes not to slow us down) is probably better overall.

There are very few Rout maps though, and units like Gatrie and Brom are not going to be doing much in those maps anyway. The best way to handle Rout maps is to position your top 2-4 combat units in a way that they will face and kill every single enemy on the map. Rolf can arguably be better for these because he has the range to move in and pick off anything that might have survived an Enemy phase.

The Mia thing is something she has over the other Swordmasters, but I admit that requires a massive amount of resources. Using Rolf doesn't require nearly as much of an investment, and it is spread out until much later in the game where we can afford it much easier. Also, using Rolf is only under the assumption of no Flier being used, and without Marcia or Jill taking their massive Bexp dump, there will be a plethora of Bexp available.

8 hours ago, -Cynthia- said:

Any low Con unit can be Shoved in 17-2 though right? Doesn't Rolf get slowed down on his way to the Arrive square because he can't counter things?

Mist gets a horse after promoting and Rhys is too fragile. And the Mages 6 Mov doesn't cut it. You do need to shove someone in after Rolf to clear his path on turn 2.

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6 hours ago, Hawk King said:

There are very few Rout maps though, and units like Gatrie and Brom are not going to be doing much in those maps anyway. The best way to handle Rout maps is to position your top 2-4 combat units in a way that they will face and kill every single enemy on the map. Rolf can arguably be better for these because he has the range to move in and pick off anything that might have survived an Enemy phase.

Gatrie/Brom can kill stuff at 1-2 range- depending on what other units you have they might be your best options available. Sure they're useless in a team full of paladins and fliers, but so is Rolf.

The Mia thing is something she has over the other Swordmasters, but I admit that requires a massive amount of resources. Using Rolf doesn't require nearly as much of an investment, and it is spread out until much later in the game where we can afford it much easier. Also, using Rolf is only under the assumption of no Flier being used, and without Marcia or Jill taking their massive Bexp dump, there will be a plethora of Bexp available.

It also assumes shovebots and not mounted units. If there aren't other units to shove Rolf or units to clear stuff out of the way, he can't reach squares for bosskills and such. 

Mist gets a horse after promoting and Rhys is too fragile. And the Mages 6 Mov doesn't cut it. You do need to shove someone in after Rolf to clear his path on turn 2.

Ah, I did forget that mages have lower Mov than other foot units in this game.

I did move the lower tiers around, including Rolf up.

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4 hours ago, -Cynthia- said:

I did move the lower tiers around, including Rolf up.

I know I was pretty hard on him, but you didn't have to remove Geoffrey from the Tier list entirely! LOL  He should probably go between Devdan and Largo?

It looks good otherwise. I can see Gatrie being above Elincia and Rolf because of his earlygame.

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4 hours ago, Hawk King said:

I know I was pretty hard on him, but you didn't have to remove Geoffrey from the Tier list entirely! LOL  He should probably go between Devdan and Largo?

It looks good otherwise. I can see Gatrie being above Elincia and Rolf because of his earlygame.

Woops fixed.

Yeah, this was mostly just Gatrie's Chapter 7, which happens even in 'high efficiency' teams. 

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Alright. That placing looks fairly reasonable for now.

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