FE9 Tier list v3

[Colonel M]

Yeah, durability matters too. Yeah, the chests don't attack, but him stealing something almost requires absolute protection. It's not like the chests aren't near an enemy or of the sort. Take his joining chapter (C13?) for instance. We have the Ravens and all those nasty units. He's 2RKOed all the time.

The first couple of chests he gets have no enemies near them. After that, the ravens that actually attack are gone, so there are no threats to him. If by chance he does get attacked, he doesn't get one-rounded, so he's still fine.

It's the point of he still gets two rounded. In comparison to the team, many units (hell even Volke) is pulling off better durability. That's terrible.

Also you do still have chest keys, so especially for the last few chapters, if a chest is somehow too dangerous for Sothe to get to (this genearlly never happens, just wait a turn or two until your army has begun to advance past that part, and it'll be safe), use one of the keys you've accumulated. Yes, Sothe is worse, but not by much at all.

With Chest Keys you've basically eliminated Sothe's utility. To even say the words "Yes, Sothe is worse, but not by much at all" is quite a bold statement when there are little that are being 2RKOed, nay 3RKOed.

What? Using them >/ getting them. Without Volke, Mist wouldn't be able to use the physic staves as much, limiting her usefulness and making her < Volke. With Volke, her utility increases, but since Volke is being used to steal the physics, his utility increases and he remain > Mist.

Mist without high end staves that you need a thief for >>>> Volke without the utility of getting you said staves. Volke has little else to contribute. Mist, however, still has a lot to offer. Like the rest of the high level staves, normal staves, w1n supports, and being better than him at combat.

Someone please just put her back up if necessary so I don't have to listen to this again.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Colonel M

[Reikken]

Yes, pretty much everyone is more durable than Sothe. There is one very important difference, though. Can you spot it?

...Sothe's job does not require him to engage the enemy.

[Colonel M]

Yes, pretty much everyone is more durable than Sothe. There is one very important difference, though. Can you spot it?

...Sothe's job does not require him to engage the enemy.

No... just the enemies swarm to him.

(Also untrue if we're factoring that he's stealing Physic Staves or other things).

Edited August 30, 2009 by Colonel M

[Reikken]

I already went over bishops (the things he's stealing from).

[Colonel M]

I wasn't even meaning Bishops. Priests | Bishops aren't alone.

[Reikken]

Chests don't attack, and bishops have such crappy offense that you can have the rest of your army go around them, leaving them alive, and have Sothe come in and steal safely behind your other units, and they won't kill him even if you leave them alive for a turn after stealing.

I thought it was obvious, but I was implying that you kill everything else except them. Edited August 30, 2009 by Reikken

[Colonel M]

Chests don't attack, and bishops have such crappy offense that you can have the rest of your army go around them, leaving them alive, and have Sothe come in and steal safely behind your other units, and they won't kill him even if you leave them alive for a turn after stealing.

I thought it was obvious, but I was implying that you kill everything else except them.

I thought it was obvious that it isn't always possible to kill everything surrounding the Bishop | Priest either.

[Reikken]

What the hell? How is it not? When you go through chapters, you leave some enemies alive--and not ones on the outskirts of the map, either--because it's not possible to kill them? What are you talking about?

Edited August 30, 2009 by Reikken

[Zkirsche]

20/2 Volke? That's quite a lot of exp there, sir. About as much as using Mia as a primary team member from her joining chapter all the way to the end of ch 16.

I gave him 10 levels in 13 chapters, considering bexp and almost a manopoly on thieving, this is hardly unattainable.

Mist without high end staves that you need a thief for >>>> Volke without the utility of getting you said staves. Volke has little else to contribute. Mist, however, still has a lot to offer. Like the rest of the high level staves, normal staves, w1n supports, and being better than him at combat.

Volke nets you better 1-2 range weapons (short spears/axes and spears/tomahawks), 4378620576867258 gold, high-level tomes, seige tomes, and the otehr staves that you yourself mentioned.

Supports is an obvious win, but minor due to being vastly less important than anything else.

Mist is only really better than him in combat with the sonic sword. Compare their offence in chapter 21, when the sonic sword has likely been broken:

20/2 Volke with stilleto: 28 Atk, 22 AS, 21 Crit

20/6 Mist with a forged steel sword, 'A' Titania, 'B' Boyd: 28 Atk, 20 AS, 14 Crit

Lol@ Mist being being better than Volke offensively when she doesn't beat him in any offensive parameter. And since the sonic sword only comes once, Volke wins offence for the remaining period of time until forged silvers (chapter 23) and even then I'd say he wins thanks to doubling more and superier durability.

And yes, it is superier. Comparing a 20/4 Volke to a 20/8 Mist, Volke has a 4 HP lead over Mist and shade, compared to Mist's miracle, 4 Avo and 1 Def. The latter of which has a ~44% chance of not existing.

A monopoly over thieiving utility + helping you out combat wise for longer and sometimes better > healing utility that's shared amongst others + superier combat for a shorter period of time at a small level (More Atk vs doubling more).

Volke > Mist.

Edited August 30, 2009 by kirsche

[Colonel M]

Hello? The enemies could be out of reach or other circumstances. How is this not difficult to understand?

[Reikken]

Enemies out of reach are not enemies next to the bishops...

[Zkirsche]

Hello? The enemies could be out of reach or other circumstances. How is this not difficult to understand?

If they're out of reach, how can said enemy attack Soteh when he steals from the priest?

Edit: Ninja'd.

Edited August 30, 2009 by kirsche

[Colonel M]

Enemies out of reach are not enemies next to the bishops...

Allow me to explain this. I wish I could do so... slowly. Though with the internet I cannot.

There can still be enemies within range or due to the lack of units left attacking. There is still the enemy phase to consider. Sothe might be able to steal the staff, but enemies that weren't reachable could be within Sothe's reach. Then we have to factor that we have to protect the useless bastard. How fun can THAT be?

Edited August 30, 2009 by Colonel M

[Reikken]

I gave him 10 levels in 13 chapters, considering bexp and almost a manopoly on thieving, this is hardly unattainable.

11 levels, sir.

Stealing gives almost nothing in exp. That might cover your 1 level discrepancy, leaving 10 more levels to go. That's either a shitload of bexp or a ton of fighting with his significantly-worse-than-Mia's fighting skillz.

A monopoly over thieiving utility

False. Sothe exists.

[Reikken]

There can still be enemies within range or due to the lack of units left attacking. There is still the enemy phase to consider. Sothe might be able to steal the staff, but enemies that weren't reachable could be within Sothe's reach. Then we have to factor that we have to protect the useless bastard. How fun can THAT be?

You do not advance with Sothe until the enemies have been killed. That's common sense.

[Florete]

4378620576867258 gold,

If you're talking about the 50k gold, then no, you can't attribute him to that.

Supports is an obvious win, but minor due to being vastly less important than anything else.

Orly? Volke's partners: Bastian. The worst character in the game.

Mist's partners: Titania, Jill, Boyd, Mordecai. The best unit in the game, the second best unit in the game, and two High tiers. And guess what? They all want her. And the bonuses rock. Supports are definitely a big win for Mist, as they help her and her partners quite a lot.

Mist is only really better than him in combat with the sonic sword. Compare their offence in chapter 21, when the sonic sword has likely been broken:

20/2 Volke with stilleto: 28 Atk, 22 AS, 21 Crit

20/6 Mist with a forged steel sword, 'A' Titania, 'B' Boyd: 28 Atk, 20 AS, 14 Crit

Volke also has 34.15/11.2 HP/Def, while Mist with that support combo gets 31/12.6 HP/Def. So durability would be pretty similar, unless Mist has B Jill instead, in which case 2.4 Def > 3 HP. And if she has A Mordecai/B Jill, she'll also have a +1 atk lead. Or if she exchanges B Jill for B Boyd, she goes back to mostly tying durability but wins offense with +2 atk. She also has more avoid and Crit avo due to like +10 Luck or something and then Jill also gives some, which would even cover WTD.

So you see, supports actually can change a lot for her. She has two full offense boosting partners and 3 full Def boosting partners. And a horse~

Oh, and I also notice those weapons. Volke has his most powerful weapon (Which doesn't even show up until Ch. 21, and then isn't buyable until Ch. 27, so I can't see how he gets much out of 20 uses for 5 maps) he'll ever weild, while Mist can possibly get stronger forges and stronger weapons in general, like a Silver Sword. And don't forget that Mist at least has access to 1-2 range, which increases her player phase durability lead.

Lol@ Mist being being better than Volke offensively when she doesn't beat him in any offensive parameter. And since the sonic sword only comes once, Volke wins offence for the remaining period of time until forged silvers (chapter 23) and even then I'd say he wins thanks to doubling more and superier durability.

Lol @ superior durability.

Volke wins offense? When and how? If you mean doubling, wrong, sir. Looking at chapter 21, Mist's 20 AS misses out on only 2 enemies, both Myrmidons. In 22, it misses out on 3 SM's and the boss, but even Volke can't double one of the SM's and they happen to threaten him with ~12-14 crit. So Volke has no offensive win either.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Colonel M]

After talking with someone about it... alright. Just so long as we're not making major jumps with Sothe or major drops with Volke.

[Zkirsche]

Stealing gives almost nothing in exp. That might cover your 1 level discrepancy, leaving 10 more levels to go. That's either a shitload of bexp or a ton of fighting with his significantly-worse-than-Mia's fighting skillz.

Well, I excluded the extra chapter he had afte promotion, assuming it was okay for him to get 1 level, especially with his ability to ORKO some units others cannot (SM's) and some otehrs (Soldiers + magic users). So yeah, 10 levels beforehand is easy. 1 level after promotion is easy.

False. Sothe exists.

Okay, then, almost a complete monopoly over thievery.

If you're talking about the 50k gold, then no, you can't attribute him to that.

No, I'm talking about the 975264822010641 items he can net you, many of which can be sold for a tonne of money (ashera icons, the statue frag, vulneraries, spare 1-2 range weapons, spare tomes, spare staves etcetera).

Orly? Volke's partners: Bastian. The worst character in the game.

Mist's partners: Titania, Jill, Boyd, Mordecai. The best unit in the game, the second best unit in the game, and two High tiers. And guess what? They all want her. And the bonuses rock. Supports are definitely a big win for Mist, as they help her and her partners quite a lot.

Supports is an obvious win, but minor due to being vastly less important than anything else.

Being good at combat, healing or theiving >>>>>>>>> support bonuses.

Even then, I'd question how much they help.

Take Boyd, for example, he can easily replace Mist with Brom as they give the same bonuses and their speeds are similar. Mordecai can easily get Ilyana/Stefan and please don't spout bS about him needing Atk and Def as that's not true, his problem stat is speed. Jill is uber eitehr way, really, and can easily be fine with just a Lethe/Haar support. And Titania? Ehh, if Soren isn't fielded, Mist should say hi to Ike, who just stole her spot for having a superier affinity.

Honestly, her support are great, but they are merely replacing others which these characters are fine with.

So you see, supports actually can change a lot for her.

So... in order to be better, she's practically shoving Ilyana/Stefan out of the way in Mordy's case and Jill just don't give a damn.

Volke has his most powerful weapon (Which doesn't even show up until Ch. 21, and then isn't buyable until Ch. 27, so I can't see how he gets much out of 20 uses for 5 maps) he'll ever weild, while Mist can possibly get stronger forges and stronger weapons in general, like a Silver Sword.

I gave Mist the strongest forge she could have, some -wt, full mt and full crt. A silver sword ties in mt and wt, but has less crt. I'm sorry, I'll just make Mist even worse than Volke offensively.

Looking at chapter 21, Mist's 20 AS misses out on only 2 enemies, both Myrmidons.

Okay, I'll make a note that somehow Mist's inferier AS and crit doesn't equate to a loss when she has no such leads of her own. My bad. [/sarcasm]

Honestly, Volke wins every stat, but Mist wins? What's this BS?

Lol @ superior durability.

Lol@Ignoring what I said. Time for copy+paste:

And yes, it is superier. Comparing a 20/4 Volke to a 20/8 Mist, Volke has a 4 HP lead over Mist and shade, compared to Mist's miracle, 4 Avo and 1 Def. The latter of which has a ~44% chance of not existing.

Edited August 30, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

I'm going to go with the crowd that says Volke's theiving utility is mostly unique and rather useful (that's a long list of items there), and thus his current position is justified, I'm fine with Volke>Mist because while there are 5 other healers, there's only one other theif.

However, I also agree that the gap between Sothe and Volke is too large, since Sothe only has one less chapter of usefulness and is less durable. Any suggestions on where he should go?

Edited August 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Mekkah]

It's superior, not superier. Therefore, Volke should not move up or down.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Mekkah

[Zkirsche]

However, I also agree that the gap between Sothe and Volke is too large, since Sothe only has one less chapter of usefulness and is less durable. Any suggestions on where he should go?

Well, considering Volke beats him in combat, I'll say Mid is just fine for Sothe, perhaps just above Geoffrey, though he can easily rise to upper mid.

[Colonel M]

Again, let's not bolt him very high. Perhaps put him at the top of his tier for now and we can pick at it piece by piece.

[Zkirsche]

I fail to see why not. Reikken's showed how his durability doesn't hurt his thieving utility and Volke's offensive lead shouldn't warrant a two tier gap.

[Colonel M]

Thing is seeing Sothe > Soren, Ilyana, and Rhys is complicated. It goes back to them having healing utility and chip damage.

[Eltoshen]

Why is Jill so high again? She gets doubled considerably the few chapters she first joins you and it takes a long time before she can start doubling enemies herself.

I don't get how she's so high on the list. Higher than Oscar, wtf? I think Ike's even better than her.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Eltoshen