FE9 Tier list v3

[Eltoshen]

Actually, I think you just disregarded the fact that Volke has shade, which makes him a perfect candidate for rescuing others.

...?????

...Am I the only one not figuring out how?

And besides that, his aid. 11 con [Thats what's used for Rescuing, right?]...sucks. Look at everybody that can't rescue [Wt is used to determine that, right?]

You know what Shade does right? Enemies won't prioritize him as the first target.

[Narga_Rocks]

Actually, I think you just disregarded the fact that Volke has shade, which makes him a perfect candidate for rescuing others.

...?????

...Am I the only one not figuring out how?

And besides that, his aid. 11 con [Thats what's used for Rescuing, right?]...sucks. Look at everybody that can't rescue [Wt is used to determine that, right?]

You know what Shade does right? Enemies won't prioritize him as the first target.

Except it doesn't even work 100% when a unit doesn't have a giant target painted on them. It'll be even less effective while carrying something.

[Eltoshen]

Actually, I think you just disregarded the fact that Volke has shade, which makes him a perfect candidate for rescuing others.

...?????

...Am I the only one not figuring out how?

And besides that, his aid. 11 con [Thats what's used for Rescuing, right?]...sucks. Look at everybody that can't rescue [Wt is used to determine that, right?]

You know what Shade does right? Enemies won't prioritize him as the first target.

Except it doesn't even work 100% when a unit doesn't have a giant target painted on them. It'll be even less effective while carrying something.

That just got me to thinking:

Savior and Shade is great for him. Then again, mounted units benefit even more. Oh well.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Zkirsche]

2-3 enemies? Riiiight. Except I showed multiple enemies the offense helps Mordecai against (Definitely more than 3) and the Def helps Titania/Jill all the time, in every map for which it's active, so your 2-3 builds up into something 35-40. I don't see Volke helping in such a way.

Oh? What about the dracoshield he can nab you? That's a definite +2 def bonus to someone. Unlike supports, it isn't cancelled from moving out of range.

It goes both ways. Them taking the support from Mist is a negative for them. And since Mordecai isn't helped as much by them, it's a greater negative. Opportunity costs suggest giving the support to Mist.

By the way, only one has to be out of play for it to not matter at all. If Ilyana is out, Stefan gets a B, because A only nets them more Hit. If Ilyana is in, she takes B also.

Mordy, A Ilyana, B Mist: +5 Def, +3 atk, +7 Hit

Mordy, A Mist, B Ilyana: +5 Def, +4 atk, +5 Hit

A Mist >>>. Ilyana can also take Zihark, or Gatrie if he's in play.

So? that's their problem, not Volke's. Mist still gets negative utility from pushing them out the way.

No siree, it's not. I think you missed the "trades" part. Mist can share a forge with the likes of Ike, Zihark, and Stefan.

That's still stopping them from using it at points. Word it however you like - as long as Mist uses a forge someone else doesn't use it, building up negative tility.

Yeah, it just means his combat continues to suck.

And mist's doesn't, but at a cost, reducing the utility.

...Huh? How does "I don't always kill with" = "I always use it?" She uses when she needs to attack from range, which she doesn't always do. I'm pretty sure we don't assume Jill, Kieran, and Boyd are always tossing Hand Axes around.

That's because they don't always kill with it. Still it's ~4 roudns per chapter. So she isn't even using it all the time.

I don't know if you're just being smart with me or if you're serious, but I think it's obvious what I mean by "a horse." +2 move, Canto, Rescuing.

+1 mov actually and since you mentioned the other two things seperately, I had no clue what you meant by it.

Rescue >>> Shove. And Volke should never Rescue.

It's all very situational. But remember: its easier to rescue Volke than it is to rescue Mist.

If he steals from someone, I expect he isn't the only guy there, and someone else will come in and kill.

What? If there's a multitude of enemies, Volke will get attacked too you know.

I consider healing >>> because it keeps my team alive. I can do without most of the items Volke gets, or use Chest Keys, but at least one healer can be paramount to efficient play.

I can do without using Mist. Easily plausable, that's what I do every playthrough. Essentialness doesn't exist sans RD when Ike is essential to kill Ashera and the BK. Neither is essential to complete the game. What we're doing is seeing who makes completing the game easier and in the most efficient way, which is Volke as the multitude of items he gets is helping out every single ally.

Javelins have already been buyable, so screw that. One of the others might be nice, though.

You don't have much money at that point, however, after making 2 forges and buying a few weapons for everyone.

You have to get him to equip his Iron Bow, which might not happen.

What happened to enemies prefer to attack at range? You can easily just place a unit in his Atk range with 1 rng only and Makoya will go in for the kill (and fail), leaving Volke to steal his laguz slayer.

Lol at 6 levels by the end of his second map (Seeker has 16 AS).

True enougth.

Sothe can, and probably will because of our turn limit, still get some chests. Also, the Ravens that come will open them, and you can then kill them to get the drop. So Volke isn't actually necessary for any of those.

Volke can get them. Mist can't. Advantage Volke. This is exactly why i conceded supports - Mist can give out useful support bonuses (albeit replaceable ones), but Volke can't.

Considering we want to clear it fast (7 turns for max) there's no way he gets everything. He might not even get help from our fliers if we go for max BEXP, because they'd have to go kill Muarim.

Only Jill who rescues Soren needs to go kill Muarim. Marcia can easily ferry Volke to the silver blade, physic and the white gem. The other options are there if possible.

I laugh at sucking at combat being "crushing." And Volke doubles, like, maybe 2 enemies in a given map that Mist doesn't.

Combat >>>> non-combat. You deem him "Sucking" because he's bad against knights and cavaliers, when they're practically non-existant from then until chapter 17-2. And he's much better against non-knights. Take chapter 13 for example, giving him a level per chapter, his 16 Atk can at least 2RKO a fighter, myrmidons, archers, 2 soldiers and can ORKO some mages. He 3RKO's the soldiers and a fighter. Though since not many people are ORKO'ing, he can at least team up for a kill.

When is Volke's promotion again? I'm pretty sure it's after this map, which means he can't steal from Homasa because the guy has 20 AS. And to get the Short Spear, the Steel Lance would have to be equipped, but that's unlikely because enemies generally prefer attacking at range.

Apparently teh ending sentance doesn't apply to Makoya >_>. If the unit it attacks has 1-2 range, then said unit will attack at 1 range for the MT and Hit. if the unit is Astrid who just attacked with a bow, getting him to equip the steel lance is even easier. You're right about homasa.

Again, he won't get everything. We have Chest Keys when needed and Sothe. You can't credit everything to him. At best, you can give him most of the stuff he steals (since Sothe might lack the AS) and maybe half the chests.

Which is what I do, I'm merely mentioning what he can get for the team and what Mist can't, and chest keys are limited and rare anyways. Using a theif to open a chest is better than having a different unit using a chest key because it limits the other unit's combat abilities, slowing the team down. However, Volke doesn't combat much by this point (only to get the occasional kill in the areas with chests in them).

Staves give more experience than stealing.

And Volke needs less bexp to level up.

Again, it all cancels out.

Before it was "Volke sucks at combat but needs it to reach level 20." Now it's "Both can fight but don't really need to." Mist also did not have to go through sucking at combat to get to fairly good combat. And combat is the only thing keeping Volke from being replaced by Sothe anyway, while Mist has various advantages on the other healers.

He doesn't really need it for level 20 though, as I've mentioned with bexp. Combat is only a plus for his utility.

Hold up there, buddy. First, determine the usefulness of all of those. I'm pretty sure we already have some Physic, so more might be overkill. All those ranged weapons probably aren't doing much of anything either because our units are uber at this point. And then that's also 11 items when we only have 13 turns to clear the map for max BEXP, and he won't always be in range of one of them.

Considering we have Rhys and possibly Soren who can all heal, that's 3 physic's, and a physic only lasts for a chapter and a half if used every turn. Either way, it gets us money and reduces the amount of physics we'll need to buy come endgame. They're not uber with just normal hand axes, though. They have the MT of a laguz weapon, and we all know how strong those are. Again, I'm not asking for all of them, as we don't need to get all those seige tomes unless we're using all of Tormod/Calill/Soren/Ilyana and in that case, we probably don't need the ranged weapons as much. However, Volke has the ability to get these, Mist doesn't. Point for Volke.

Same situation. It's pretty much impossible for him to get everything on his own without wasting turns, and some of it just isn't as valuable anymore.

A Brave lance and bolting are both certainly very useful, though I agree that with all this theiving, Volke's nabbed us quite a bit of physics.

It appears Sothe no longer exists.

With the supports, I assumed Stefan/Ilyana didn't exist.

Free 20k + 50k isn't enough for you? Plus whatever we don't actually need Volke for?

No, it's not.

Just look at mage tomes - especially light magic ones. They can deplete your money stocks very quickly, and they just so happen to be the main group of people asking for forges (Considering stronger weapons weigh them down, they want forges). Heck, even normal weapon forges can be costly. There are 22 forging opportunities in this game. Say I made a max Mt forge in the sword department at every opportunity and the forges i made was the best type. That's 93217 gold right there. Considering you might want +crt, this number could very well be bigger.

Healing has always been >> self healing.

Yet somehow having units open chests with chest keys >> thieves opening chests despite the fact the situation is the same. Heck, it's actually less of an argument in your case considering units don't actually want to run back to get healed, they just want to push onwards. And what happens if they're out of range? Then they need the elixer to survive. Go Volke.

You're still underrating her support bonuses. Helping two units both kill and survive just by existing >>> Volke running off to steal stuff.

This statement implies that you're heavily underrating what Volke steals as he does that and more.

And if Mordy ever gets attacked untransformed, the Def is now pretty nice.

Except we don't want him to get attacked as that's inefficient.

Oh yeah, and you ignored this, which is a pretty major point:

this isn't all the time (When they're not in range

So all he does at combat is strictly self improvement since he really isn't helping to clear out enemies faster (I think everyone is better at combat at this point, since even base level Nephenee can grab a forge). Unless he sticks to just guys he can ORKO (Priests) and attacking when there's nothing better for him to do, engaging him in combat is more negative than positive when compared to Mist.

Just because everyone is better at him at combat doesn't mean he doesn't help. As I've said, not many people are ORKO'ing and so teaming up to kill is efficient. By killing a priest, allies can then focus on greater threats - such as the cavaliers.

And now Mist has to fight? How many times have I said that they don't even fight that often? Volke getting experience to get to his "I don't suck" point is a negative no matter how you look at it unless he stays away from almost any combat.

No it isn't. He can help turncount by killing enemies so allies can kill boss/arrive faster or finish off enemies otehr allies can only weaken. Both speed up play and both provide positive combat utility, which Mist cannot override unless she goes into combat after promotion. At that point, Volke's offensive is similar to Mist's (outside of silver forges and teh sonci sword), so the utility gap then is small and certainly inferier to Volke's combat utility. Note that Mist has to use expensive forges for combat similar to Volke's (aside from silver forges), which is a negative for her.

I'd also liek to state that more units can heal than steal, so all this talk about Volke not getting everything can be mirrored back at Mist: she isn't the only healer and the others can certainly do a good job, especially with all the physics Volke is getting you (which you say is too many, so don't create any double standards by saying there's not enougth). In fact, I'd go as far to say that Healer Mist >/ Healer Rhys/Soren with physic. Whereas Thief Volke > Thief Sothe because of superier durability and stats (Volke can steal from faster foes than Sothe) and even combat Volke > combat Sothe so, there's definitely a difference there.

Volke's positive combat utility earlygame + the uses the items he steals for you gets >> Mist's healing + the bonuses her supports gives you.

[Dat Nick]

Actually, I think you just disregarded the fact that Volke has shade, which makes him a perfect candidate for rescuing others.

...?????

...Am I the only one not figuring out how?

And besides that, his aid. 11 con [Thats what's used for Rescuing, right?]...sucks. Look at everybody that can't rescue [Wt is used to determine that, right?]

You know what Shade does right? Enemies won't prioritize him as the first target.

...okay. And? His mobility still sucks ass, and you can Canto away after rescuing. That's ten billion times more reliable than Shade. Volke is the last person I want rescuing somebody, I don't even know why you're even considering him as a rescuer.

[Eltoshen]

Actually, I think you just disregarded the fact that Volke has shade, which makes him a perfect candidate for rescuing others.

...?????

...Am I the only one not figuring out how?

And besides that, his aid. 11 con [Thats what's used for Rescuing, right?]...sucks. Look at everybody that can't rescue [Wt is used to determine that, right?]

You know what Shade does right? Enemies won't prioritize him as the first target.

...okay. And? His mobility still sucks ass, and you can Canto away after rescuing. That's ten billion times more reliable than Shade. Volke is the last person I want rescuing somebody, I don't even know why you're even considering him as a rescuer.

But regardless of that fact, why is there actually a character that's being rescued by the end of the turn? If you know how to rescue and drop + heal, there's no reason anybody should end their turn with somebody still in their possession, lol.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Narga_Rocks]

But regardless of that fact, why is there actually a character that's being rescued by the end of the turn? If you know how to rescue and drop + heal, there's no reason anybody should end their turn with somebody still in their possession, lol.

That all depends on just how far you are trying to move them.

Besides, Volke can only do one leg of the journey even if you do take + drop in the same turn. Without canto all he can do is the ending (most of the time) and only on units with <= 9 wt. (<= 10 after promotion) Mist can do either leg after promotion and can do so on just about anything that can be picked up (minus the laguz, mostly).

[Florete]

So? that's their problem, not Volke's. Mist still gets negative utility from pushing them out the way.

?????

wtf

No, she doesn't. And I don't understand how she possibly can.

That's still stopping them from using it at points. Word it however you like - as long as Mist uses a forge someone else doesn't use it, building up negative tility.

God damn it, will you stop overblowing this forge thing? When you play, do you eat up your forges like they're your favorite candy? I've gone over this before how not giving Mist a forge is practically sandbagging her and most definitely is not negative utility. If she breaks one, she can share with others, that's not a disadvantage, it's just a way to keep her offense up.

That's because they don't always kill with it. Still it's ~4 roudns per chapter. So she isn't even using it all the time.

Yeah, I kinda already said that. That's 25 shots of being >>>> Volke.

+1 mov actually and since you mentioned the other two things seperately, I had no clue what you meant by it.

Volke has 7 move. Mist has 9. 9 - 7 = 2. Mist has +2 move.

It's all very situational. But remember: its easier to rescue Volke than it is to rescue Mist.

Why would you want to Rescue Mist? This isn't an advantage for him. Volke is just more likely to need rescuing because if he fights he's locked to 1 range and has bad durability, while Mist can at least Canto.

What? If there's a multitude of enemies, Volke will get attacked too you know.

If Volke stole, he didn't attack that player phase. Who's to say the enemies around the guy he stole won't be killed by other PC's, or that enemies won't attack him on enemy phase because of stuff like Shade?

I can do without using Mist. Easily plausable, that's what I do every playthrough. Essentialness doesn't exist sans RD when Ike is essential to kill Ashera and the BK. Neither is essential to complete the game. What we're doing is seeing who makes completing the game easier and in the most efficient way, which is Volke as the multitude of items he gets is helping out every single ally.

I didn't say essential to beating the game, I said paramount to efficient play. Note the word "efficient." I like getting max BEXP in this game, and a healer is extremely helpful for that in a way a Thief almost never is.

You don't have much money at that point, however, after making 2 forges and buying a few weapons for everyone.

So we don't have enough money to buy a 500g weapon?

What happened to enemies prefer to attack at range? You can easily just place a unit in his Atk range with 1 rng only and Makoya will go in for the kill (and fail), leaving Volke to steal his laguz slayer.

Laguzslayer also has +3 atk on Iron Bow, +4 at WTA. I don't remember his AI specifically, but he might choose to attack at 1 range, especially is his opponent weilds an Axe or is a Laguz. I at least know I've been stuck stealing his Bow in the past.

In the other case, a Short Spear only loses to Steel Lance in MT by 1.

Volke can get them. Mist can't. Advantage Volke. This is exactly why i conceded supports - Mist can give out useful support bonuses (albeit replaceable ones), but Volke can't.

I never said Volke couldn't get them. I never said it wasn't an advantage. I just said that it isn't as much of an advantage as you want it to be because it's still rather easy to get them without him. No one can adequately replace Mist's supports, I don't know what you're smoking there.

Titania - Only Mist gives her full Def. The other 3 don't match her movement or give anything better, except maybe Ike, but his takes too long anyway.

Mordecai - No one except lolUlki gives him offense.

Boyd - Brom can replace Mist. This is part of why he's her worst option, because here, she actually is replaceable.

Jill - LolLethe and her 9000 Hit. Lol Haar and his lolWind and late join.

Only Jill who rescues Soren needs to go kill Muarim. Marcia can easily ferry Volke to the silver blade, physic and the white gem. The other options are there if possible.

Wait, what? I've never heard of this strategy. Why does Jill rescue Soren?

Combat >>>> non-combat. You deem him "Sucking" because he's bad against knights and cavaliers, when they're practically non-existant from then until chapter 17-2. And he's much better against non-knights. Take chapter 13 for example, giving him a level per chapter, his 16 Atk can at least 2RKO a fighter, myrmidons, archers, 2 soldiers and can ORKO some mages. He 3RKO's the soldiers and a fighter. Though since not many people are ORKO'ing, he can at least team up for a kill.

Combat is not > non-combat when you 1. aren't very good at and 2. need it to grow significant levels when your opponent doesn't. If Volke wants to reach level 20 before promoting, he has to fight, and 2-3RKOing isn't want I call "good." Average at best, but then if you consider that he needs ~7 levels worth of CEXP to reach level 20, that's 7 levels he's taking from the team that Mist isn't. If he had actually good combat, I could forgive him, but he doesn't.

And his durability is nothing special either. It sucks when you're killing the enemy in the same number of rounds as they're killing you back. And with 20% Def and 10% Res, he isn't getting anywhere very fast.

Oh, and as Reikken mentioned before, Res is another one of Mist's advantages. She's a great Mage/Sage killer, much better than Volke. They aren't a majority of enemies, but every single one of them Mist has another advantage from.

And Volke needs less bexp to level up.

Again, it all cancels out.

Only barely. And since he combats less, Mist will continue to open the level gap. Volke isn't going to be entitled to more BEXP.

He doesn't really need it for level 20 though, as I've mentioned with bexp. Combat is only a plus for his utility.

You were having him combat to reach level 20 (which isn't an advantage btw), and then you were saying he doesn't do it as much after promotion, when it's finally getting decent? And he won't reach level 20 solely on BEXP.

Considering we have Rhys and possibly Soren who can all heal, that's 3 physic's, and a physic only lasts for a chapter and a half if used every turn.

Why would we use it every turn? People don't always need a heal. This is another advantage for Mist, because a horse means she has to use Physic less often, which saves for others or for later.

With the supports, I assumed Stefan/Ilyana didn't exist.

wtf? No you didn't. You kept going on about how apparently Mist gets negative utility for supporting Mordecai so they can't.

No, it's not.

Just look at mage tomes - especially light magic ones. They can deplete your money stocks very quickly, and they just so happen to be the main group of people asking for forges (Considering stronger weapons weigh them down, they want forges). Heck, even normal weapon forges can be costly. There are 22 forging opportunities in this game. Say I made a max Mt forge in the sword department at every opportunity and the forges i made was the best type. That's 93217 gold right there. Considering you might want +crt, this number could very well be bigger.

70k + whatever I don't need Volke for. Let's see:

Red Gem in Ch. 8

Blue Gem in Ch. 12

Red Gem in 14

White Gem in 15 (that anyone can get, mind you)

Goddess Icons aren't worth a whole lot to use, and there are two, neither that we need Volke to get.

A lot of people don't care about Skill, and there are 2-3 (I think the Item locations page might have a double. To make it simple, if there really is a third, let's just assume we use it) that don't even require a Thief.

There's one Statue Frag in the desert we don't Volke for (technically we don't need Volke for the other one either, but it's much easier to get it with him), and no one uses those.

And then other various sellables we might not use, like Torches and Pure Water, weapons that are low on uses, and skills we don't use. All in all, that's 110k + that Volke is entirely unneccessary for. I don't know how much you can really spend on forges without just giving it superfluous bonuses like -5 Weight.

Yet somehow having units open chests with chest keys >> thieves opening chests despite the fact the situation is the same.

I never said that. However, having units open Chests with keys > self healing. I can deploy an unused scrub like Lethe to open chests, but if a unit needs to self heal, that means that unit has probably been fighting, and will likely want to fight more.

Heck, it's actually less of an argument in your case considering units don't actually want to run back to get healed, they just want to push onwards. And what happens if they're out of range? Then they need the elixer to survive. Go Volke.

Volke gets you, like, 3 Elixirs. And if self healing is really needed, a Vulnerary should suffice until a healer can get to them.

Except we don't want him to get attacked as that's inefficient.

Did I say we were tossing him out among enemies? No, I said "If he gets attacked." It can happen, and if it does, I want him with as much Def as possible.

this isn't all the time (When they're not in range

Even if it's only 80% of the time, that's 80% of the time Mist is being more helpful on the field than Volke, aside from anything else she does. Since she has a horse, I hardly find it to be an issue.

Just because everyone is better at him at combat doesn't mean he doesn't help. As I've said, not many people are ORKO'ing and so teaming up to kill is efficient. By killing a priest, allies can then focus on greater threats - such as the cavaliers.

"By killing a Priest" lol. Killing a Priest builds up as much positive utility as breaking a door down, aka nothing. Sothe can usually do that. Priests don't attack, and they usually aren't required to kill for a map completion.

Note that Mist has to use expensive forges for combat similar to Volke's (aside from silver forges), which is a negative for her.

Note that Volke's only good weapon lasts 20 uses until the last 3 maps of the game, and your price issue is an overblown point.

I'd also liek to state that more units can heal than steal, so all this talk about Volke not getting everything can be mirrored back at Mist: she isn't the only healer and the others can certainly do a good job, especially with all the physics Volke is getting you (which you say is too many, so don't create any double standards by saying there's not enougth). In fact, I'd go as far to say that Healer Mist >/ Healer Rhys/Soren with physic. Whereas Thief Volke > Thief Sothe because of superier durability and stats (Volke can steal from faster foes than Sothe) and even combat Volke > combat Sothe so, there's definitely a difference there.

You missed something very important. The other healers have 0 advantages over Mist. Nothing at all. They don't have better supports, a horse, or better combat (not saying hers is better, just that they don't win). Sothe actually has one advantage over Volke: supports. Supporting a Thief has always been tricky, but if I can have two units who otherwise do the same thing, I'll take the one that helps out another team mate or two, even if it's only for 50% of the map. Astrid otherwise only has Gatrie and possibly Makalov, so she'll accept Sothe's rather quick full avoid. Tormod has decent options, but only Calill gives him avoid, so he'll take more of that as well.

The other healers don't have anything like this on Mist because their supports are either bland or easily replaceable.

Volke's positive combat utility earlygame + the uses the items he steals for you gets << Mist's healing + the bonuses her supports gives you.

Now it's right.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Colonel M]

2 things.

First off, getting Mackoya to lock on his Bow can't be that difficult. Doesn't he charge at you anyway? Just step him toward his max range and let him Bowhit you, steal Laguz weapon. Problem solved.

Another thing, Volke's combat... any sufficient proof the team is #RKOing better than him though? I don't really want to step into this, but I know Weapon Knights aren't easy at all and 2RKOing sounds a lot better than some of the guys that probably 3RKO (I'm thinking Nephenee and Brom for examples...)

[Zkirsche]

Cynthia, what are your views on this? Because I'm not prepared to argue this much more.

?????

wtf

No, she doesn't. And I don't understand how she possibly can.

She doesn't let Ilyana/Stefan get a support. That loses them Atk and def, the latter neither are very strong on.

God damn it, will you stop overblowing this forge thing? When you play, do you eat up your forges like they're your favorite candy? I've gone over this before how not giving Mist a forge is practically sandbagging her and most definitely is not negative utility. If she breaks one, she can share with others, that's not a disadvantage, it's just a way to keep her offense up.

It's a way to keep her offence up, by weakening others. Using a forge is a negative for any unit - Mist included. It's one of the few reasons why Kieran was moved above Oscar.

Yeah, I kinda already said that. That's 25 shots of being >>>> Volke.

Point is, it's likely broken by chapter 21 with said 4 rounds of combat per chapter. So even with your logic that it's not used all the time, it's still likely to have broken.

Volke has 7 move. Mist has 9. 9 - 7 = 2. Mist has +2 move.

Mist actually has 8 mov.

Why would you want to Rescue Mist? This isn't an advantage for him. Volke is just more likely to need rescuing because if he fights he's locked to 1 range and has bad durability, while Mist can at least Canto.

Volke can be moved around quicker and easier thanks to being rescued, Mist can't be rescued. Advantage Volke.

If Volke stole, he didn't attack that player phase. Who's to say the enemies around the guy he stole won't be killed by other PC's, or that enemies won't attack him on enemy phase because of stuff like Shade?

With a multitude of enemies, he will at least be attacked once or twice.

I didn't say essential to beating the game, I said paramount to efficient play. Note the word "efficient." I like getting max BEXP in this game, and a healer is extremely helpful for that in a way a Thief almost never is.

I looked up paramount in dictionary.com and it came up with:

chief in importance or impact; supreme; preeminent: a point of paramount significance.

Aka: necessary/very important. Neither of whcih is Mist's healing.

A thief never is? Jesus, how you underrate thieving utility, i have no idea why Sothe is in high tier in your list if you have an attitude like that. Thieving also heals your team indirectly through the collection of items such as physic staves, mend staves and heal staves and elixers. Theiving also helps your combat through the collection of high level tomes, seige tomes and superier 1-2 range weapons and money for forges. It also helps boost your team in other ways, much liek a support, but better, through the collection of stat-boosters like an energy drop, speedwing and dracoshield. Heck, even the boots to help your sages/Rhys heal, or Brom/Gatrie to keep with the team. Or how about Volke to get to items quicker? Volek can get these, Mist can't (or at least Volke is better at getting them).

So we don't have enough money to buy a 500g weapon?

When buying one for Neph/Oscar/Brom/Marcia/Jill, that's up to 2500g blown on these weapons. I really think that's pushing it, really.

Laguzslayer also has +3 atk on Iron Bow, +4 at WTA. I don't remember his AI specifically, but he might choose to attack at 1 range, especially is his opponent weilds an Axe or is a Laguz. I at least know I've been stuck stealing his Bow in the past.

I never have. He's always attacked me with his bow. Always. Forever and ever.

In the other case, a Short Spear only loses to Steel Lance in MT by 1.

So? Lack of short spears available means this matters not. Getting Makoya to weild his bow is NOT hard, just have a unit equip a 1-range weapon and there you go.

I never said Volke couldn't get them. I never said it wasn't an advantage. I just said that it isn't as much of an advantage as you want it to be because it's still rather easy to get them without him. No one can adequately replace Mist's supports, I don't know what you're smoking there.

Titania - Only Mist gives her full Def. The other 3 don't match her movement or give anything better, except maybe Ike, but his takes too long anyway.

Mordecai - No one except lolUlki gives him offense.

Boyd - Brom can replace Mist. This is part of why he's her worst option, because here, she actually is replaceable.

Jill - LolLethe and her 9000 Hit. Lol Haar and his lolWind and late join.

Jill and Titania don't care as much as you want them to. And many of the enemies you gave out made it fine for Mordy to ORKO with just an Ilyana and Stefan support. All of these are easily replaceable. You got to stop overrating this support thing.

Wait, what? I've never heard of this strategy. Why does Jill rescue Soren?

It's easy just to have soren walk on foot too, thanks to laguz-effective weapons, defeating Muarim with these two isn't hard. Which leaves Marcia to help Volke collect the boots, white gem, physic and maybe the silver blade.

Combat is not > non-combat when you 1. aren't very good at and 2. need it to grow significant levels when your opponent doesn't. If Volke wants to reach level 20 before promoting, he has to fight, and 2-3RKOing isn't want I call "good." Average at best, but then if you consider that he needs ~7 levels worth of CEXP to reach level 20, that's 7 levels he's taking from the team that Mist isn't. If he had actually good combat, I could forgive him, but he doesn't.

Bullshit.

Most of the exp he needs can be collected through bexp and theiving alone, and the rest can be done with cexp. However, him fighting speeds things up. Mist doesn't fight or speeds things up because of it. Advantage Volke.

And his durability is nothing special either. It sucks when you're killing the enemy in the same number of rounds as they're killing you back. And with 20% Def and 10% Res, he isn't getting anywhere very fast.

Good thing he has shade.

Oh, and as Reikken mentioned before, Res is another one of Mist's advantages. She's a great Mage/Sage killer, much better than Volke. They aren't a majority of enemies, but every single one of them Mist has another advantage from.

Yes, much better than Volke, who kills them just as fast, oh wait, Mist can't even fight mages at this point. Even when she can, Volke get 3HKO'ed by them at like, ~50 displayed, so it's all good, especially factoring in shade.

Only barely. And since he combats less, Mist will continue to open the level gap. Volke isn't going to be entitled to more BEXP.

Whatever, his theiving utiltiy alone is > Mist.

You were having him combat to reach level 20 (which isn't an advantage btw), and then you were saying he doesn't do it as much after promotion, when it's finally getting decent? And he won't reach level 20 solely on BEXP.

Perhaps not, but giving him 771 bexp (10% of what we have so far) which is almost enougth to get him to level 17. He can easily get this extra bit from thieving and a little more, leaving him just ~3 levels of combat exp, which can be obtained by effcient combat play (as in, teaming up to kill)

Why would we use it every turn? People don't always need a heal. This is another advantage for Mist, because a horse means she has to use Physic less often, which saves for others or for later.

The latter part only serves as an advantage for her compared to teh otehr healers, and it's exactly why she has a tier lead over them. However, as healers only, Soren/Rhys can easily match Mist's healing performance with the use of physics. Besides, Volek nets you plenty of them, as you seem to be in agreement with if you're starting to devalue them because of it.

wtf? No you didn't. You kept going on about how apparently Mist gets negative utility for supporting Mordecai so they can't.

When I conceded that Mist gets an advantage from supports i did, however, I'm merely emphasising that a support bonus is not a massive win for anyone.

70k + whatever I don't need Volke for. Let's see:

Red Gem in Ch. 8

Blue Gem in Ch. 12

Red Gem in 14

White Gem in 15 (that anyone can get, mind you)

Goddess Icons aren't worth a whole lot to use, and there are two, neither that we need Volke to get.

A lot of people don't care about Skill, and there are 2-3 (I think the Item locations page might have a double. To make it simple, if there really is a third, let's just assume we use it) that don't even require a Thief.

There's one Statue Frag in the desert we don't Volke for (technically we don't need Volke for the other one either, but it's much easier to get it with him), and no one uses those.

And then other various sellables we might not use, like Torches and Pure Water, weapons that are low on uses, and skills we don't use. All in all, that's 110k + that Volke is entirely unneccessary for. I don't know how much you can really spend on forges without just giving it superfluous bonuses like -5 Weight.

1) Volke is best at getting the statue frag and white gem.

2) Ranged weapons exits, and the likes of, say, Boyd would love the secret books to increase his hit with hand axes. Makalov would also like some secret books to help him hit as his hit isn't 100% reliable.

3) Torches are used in chapter 14 and 5, so i think they're quite useful.

4) -Tt helps stop AS losses from heavy weapons such as steel axes and lances (Good for Jill/Marcia/Nephenee/Kieran).

I never said that. However, having units open Chests with keys > self healing. I can deploy an unused scrub like Lethe to open chests, but if a unit needs to self heal, that means that unit has probably been fighting, and will likely want to fight more.

If they want to fight more, surely they'd want to just run forward and self-heal near enemies rather than run back to be healed?

And chest keys are in short supply anyway.

Volke gets you, like, 3 Elixirs. And if self healing is really needed, a Vulnerary should suffice until a healer can get to them.

not really, I fail to see anyone with <20 HP lategame. They want to use elixers. The more the merrier. Again, they don't want to wait around for a healer - it's faster and more efficient to run into battle.

Did I say we were tossing him out among enemies? No, I said "If he gets attacked." It can happen, and if it does, I want him with as much Def as possible.

He'll survive an attack, teh only way the def truly comes in necessary is if you throw him amongst a group of enemies.

Even if it's only 80% of the time, that's 80% of the time Mist is being more helpful on the field than Volke, aside from anything else she does. Since she has a horse, I hardly find it to be an issue.

Except you've never really countered the idea that Volke provides bonsues too: through the help of stat-boosters. +2 Def 100% of the time > + 2 def 80 % of the time.

"By killing a Priest" lol. Killing a Priest builds up as much positive utility as breaking a door down, aka nothing. Sothe can usually do that. Priests don't attack, and they usually aren't required to kill for a map completion.

1) Opening doors faster is anotehr reason why Volke > Mist, as we don't want units spending 2-3 turns trying to break doors.

2) A priest can heal an ally and possibly turn 2RKO's into 3RKO's after healing said enemy after the enemy attacked. BY stealing the stave from said enemy or killing said enemy in this case, Volek stops this from happening. Aka positive utility.

Note that Volke's only good weapon lasts 20 uses until the last 3 maps of the game, and your price issue is an overblown point.

Not really.

You missed something very important. The other healers have 0 advantages over Mist. Nothing at all. They don't have better supports, a horse, or better combat (not saying hers is better, just that they don't win). Sothe actually has one advantage over Volke: supports. Supporting a Thief has always been tricky, but if I can have two units who otherwise do the same thing, I'll take the one that helps out another team mate or two, even if it's only for 50% of the map. Astrid otherwise only has Gatrie and possibly Makalov, so she'll accept Sothe's rather quick full avoid. Tormod has decent options, but only Calill gives him avoid, so he'll take more of that as well.

Lol? Soren ORKO's almost anything he doubles. Mist barely ORKO's outside of her 25 use sonic sword, and she certainly ORKO's much less. Not to mention that's not the point, fact is, they can heal units just as well as Mist can with a physic, which we have tonnes of thanks to Volke. Even with his *small* support lead (lolwind, as you put it with Haar), he has worse durability and is worse at stealing things, too. Oh and his combat is even more fail.

Oh, I almost forgot: Elincia. Who's a better healer than Mist come endgame thanks to +1 mov and flying to help her past obstacles to aid her durabiltiy with canto and healing prowess by reaching things faster. I'm ignoring combat as, quite frankly, it's healing vs theiving, and I'm comparing MIst as a healer to otehr healers.

The other healers don't have anything like this on Mist because their supports are either bland or easily replaceable.

JUst liek Mist's then. interesting...

Volke's positive combat utility earlygame + the uses the items he steals for you gets >> Mist's healing + the bonuses her supports gives you.

Don't break my sentances, it's not nice! I fixed it for everyone.

Another thing, Volke's combat... any sufficient proof the team is #RKOing better than him though? I don't really want to step into this, but I know Weapon Knights aren't easy at all and 2RKOing sounds a lot better than some of the guys that probably 3RKO (I'm thinking Nephenee and Brom for examples...)

Noone's quite as bad as Volke is in the combat department. (he has the lowest Atk on your team), but that doesn't stop him from contributing.

Edited September 1, 2009 by kirsche

[Eltoshen]

But regardless of that fact, why is there actually a character that's being rescued by the end of the turn? If you know how to rescue and drop + heal, there's no reason anybody should end their turn with somebody still in their possession, lol.

That all depends on just how far you are trying to move them.

Besides, Volke can only do one leg of the journey even if you do take + drop in the same turn. Without canto all he can do is the ending (most of the time) and only on units with <= 9 wt. (<= 10 after promotion) Mist can do either leg after promotion and can do so on just about anything that can be picked up (minus the laguz, mostly).

I'm not arguing that Volke > Mist 'cause that's stupid. They do separate things, so it's foolish to compare them. It depends on the way you play the game. All I did was pointout some facts.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Volke needs 2 levels to be able to steal the laguzslayer. He's not getting this just by fighting and it's not worth it to give him the BEXP just so he can steal one weapon.

Also, Volke's combat < Mia's combat and if Mia's combat landed her in Low, training Volke is hurting your team more than helping.

Volke does get another Stiletto from Bastian though.

[Zkirsche]

Volke needs 2 levels to be able to steal the laguzslayer. He's not getting this just by fighting and it's not worth it to give him the BEXP just so he can steal one weapon.

He has a 55% chance of only needing 1 levels, and even two can be done solely through bexp (~200 bexp when there's ~3000 total). And yes, yes it is. Laguz slayer means that both Zihark and ike are uber in chapter 12, and likely leaves some uses left for chapter 28.

Also, Volke's combat < Mia's combat and if Mia's combat landed her in Low, training Volke is hurting your team more than helping.

Rubbish, Mist is in low because bad combat is all she has, so when compared to otehr combat units, she loses. However, this does not mean using Mia slows you down as she too can kill off priests and team up with others to kill enemies faster. A unit being below average in combat =/= unit has negative combat utility. Volke helps the completion of a chapter with his damage, and thus has a positive.

Volke does get another Stiletto from Bastian though.

*Claps* well spotted.

[-Cynthia-]

Cynthia, what are your views on this? Because I'm not prepared to argue this much more.

I'm going to say that Volke is better because theiving utility is more unique than healing utility. We can only replace Volke with Sothe (who is inferior), Mist we can replace with Rhys/Ilyana/Soren/Tormod/Elincia. And while we don't need a thief on every chapter, healers generally get less useful as time goes on, since our team is more durable overall. Mist is the better combat unit all in all, but she's not so good as to compensate for Volke's utility lead IMO.

[Florete]

I know I'm not going to convince anyone since a lot of poeple on this board seem to hate Mist, but here I go anyway. I'd appreciate it if someone would chime in, kirsche and I aren't convincing each other any time soon.

She doesn't let Ilyana/Stefan get a support. That loses them Atk and def, the latter neither are very strong on.

And they do the same to Mist. So it comes to what Mordecai wants, and I've already shown that he actually does like his Mist support. So for Christ's sake, stop trying to pull this off as a negative. For the 9000th time, it takes just one of them being out of play or supporting someone else for it to not even make a difference.

It's a way to keep her offence up, by weakening others. Using a forge is a negative for any unit - Mist included. It's one of the few reasons why Kieran was moved above Oscar.

Trades.

Trades.

Trades.

Mist uses, someone else takes it. Is that really so hard to comprehend? And taking forges is a negative for everyone? Are you even fucking trying anymore? That's the biggest pile of bullshit I've ever heard, at least by the time Mist starts fighting. Don't eat up your forges like they're a goddamn ice cream sundae.

Point is, it's likely broken by chapter 21 with said 4 rounds of combat per chapter. So even with your logic that it's not used all the time, it's still likely to have broken.

I don't know why you keep saying this. I know it's going to break. You're not proving anything that hasn't already been proven.

Volke can be moved around quicker and easier thanks to being rescued, Mist can't be rescued. Advantage Volke.

Mist can do the fucking Rescuing. Mist has +1 move. Mist has Canto. Mist doesn't need to run off to Chests requiring her to even be rescued so she can see some action. Where the fuck is Volke's advantage?

With a multitude of enemies, he will at least be attacked once or twice.

Or not, if Shade kicks in. Or not, if there isn't a multitude of enemies.

I looked up paramount in dictionary.com and it came up with:

chief in importance or impact; supreme; preeminent: a point of paramount significance.

Aka: necessary/very important. Neither of whcih is Mist's healing.

A healer. I did not say Mist specifically. Mist is just the best pick for the job.

A thief never is? Jesus, how you underrate thieving utility, i have no idea why Sothe is in high tier in your list if you have an attitude like that.

Sothe is in High tier because of combat and being clutch for a while. Thieving is only a small part of his placement.

When buying one for Neph/Oscar/Brom/Marcia/Jill, that's up to 2500g blown on these weapons. I really think that's pushing it, really.

You were talking about 1 Javelin that Volke gets, that's only 500g. That's not pushing anything.

I never have. He's always attacked me with his bow. Always. Forever and ever.

Then until one of us can prove it, this point is null, or at least, so is the next one.

So? Lack of short spears available means this matters not. Getting Makoya to weild his bow is NOT hard, just have a unit equip a 1-range weapon and there you go.

Getting this guy to equip his Steel Lance isn't the easiest thing either.

Jill and Titania don't care as much as you want them to.

They may not care as much as I want them to, but they care more than you want them to. If Mist's support means they need 2 less heals throughout the course of the map, that's two heals that can go to another character in need, or time our healers can do something else, as well as better assurance that Jill and Titania will always live. I'm only saying it as it is.

And many of the enemies you gave out made it fine for Mordy to ORKO with just an Ilyana and Stefan support.

One of those gets him +1, which often wasn't enough. Both of those gets him some more, but that's also two partners for less overall bonus, which is obviously a worse case. Oh, and Mordecai can't even get B Stefan until 19, while he already has B Mist at 17. Never mind the fact that I could have showed more enemy samples, I just figured I'd shown enough.

All of these are easily replaceable. You got to stop overrating this support thing.

I'm not, I'm saying it as it is. You've got to stop overblowing Volke's thieving if you think I'm overblowing Mist's supports.

It's easy just to have soren walk on foot too, thanks to laguz-effective weapons, defeating Muarim with these two isn't hard. Which leaves Marcia to help Volke collect the boots, white gem, physic and maybe the silver blade.

That doesn't sound efficient. With two fliers, I'm much more flexible in my Rescuing and dropping capabilities. Without Marcia, Jill has to drop Soren and then neither can do anything. With Marcia, one can drop Soren and the other can do something useful, even if just to wall. Soren's durability is not good and I don't want him getting attacked.

Bullshit.

Most of the exp he needs can be collected through bexp and theiving alone, and the rest can be done with cexp. However, him fighting speeds things up. Mist doesn't fight or speeds things up because of it. Advantage Volke.

Thieving gets him laughable experience. Chests are 0, Stealing is 10. Feel free to list all the experience he can get from Stealing.

The problem with Volke's combat is that anyone can do it better. If I deploy someone else instead of him, they can do the same thing, and that character is likely a better combat unit in the long run anyway, which means they'll put the experience to better use. Volke might speed things up with his combat in relation to Mist's lack of it, but not in relation to anyone else I could choose for the job instead.

Don't you wonder why Rolf is one of the worst characters in the game? I guarantee that by using him instead of an empty slot, I can speed up chapters a bit. But he's so low because so many people do it better and for so long. It's the same thing for Volke.

And Mist's healing can speed things up if it saves someone from dying.

Good thing he has shade.

So before it was "He'll get something to fight" and now it's "Durability doesn't matter because he won't be attacked." Bad durability or never attacked, pick your poison.

Yes, much better than Volke, who kills them just as fast, oh wait, Mist can't even fight mages at this point. Even when she can, Volke get 3HKO'ed by them at like, ~50 displayed, so it's all good, especially factoring in shade.

I would think you'd have deduced that it's when she promotes. And getting tinked >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3HKOd.

Whatever, his theiving utiltiy alone is > Mist.

No, it isn't, aka good job conceding my point.

Perhaps not, but giving him 771 bexp (10% of what we have so far) which is almost enougth to get him to level 17.

...Seriously? You're not going to account for missed BEXP? And what of the chances we use 11-12 units? Now Volke is taking more than his share.

And wait, wtf? We do not have 7710 BEXP already. I calculate our max total at this point to be more like 3250, which would mean 771 is more like ~23%. That's not taking into account any we missed, since early chapters are tough enough that getting max isn't very easy. Then there's chapter 6, wheer it's unlikely we'll actually only deploy Ike. And in 11 getting the turn count, everyone escaped, and stealth is bordering on impossible, if not just flat out impossible. Plus that would mean there's no time to open all the Chests, and we all know how important that is.

Unless by "have so far" you meant by the time he promotes, which doesn't help him a whole lot because it didn't make his combat better along the way and he gained levels while doing it, so it'll take a bit more.

When I conceded that Mist gets an advantage from supports i did, however, I'm merely emphasising that a support bonus is not a massive win for anyone.

If Volke had some useful supports of his own, it wouldn't. But when one character is directly helping others on the field while the other is doing nothing of the sort aside from the stuff he's able to steal, it is.

1) Volke is best at getting the statue frag and white gem.

Tied with Sothe. Anyone else can still do it. I did say "I don't need him," didn't I? Not verbatim, but yeah, I did.

3) Torches are used in chapter 14 and 5, so i think they're quite useful.

5 yeah. 14, we have the staff.

4) -Tt helps stop AS losses from heavy weapons such as steel axes and lances (Good for Jill/Marcia/Nephenee/Kieran).

I don't know when Steel can be forged, but:

Jill doesn't need it all on promotion.

Marcia doesn't need it at ~17.

Nephenee doesn't need it by ~19.

Kieran doesn't need it by 20.

Of course, most of that depends on when Steel can be forged and how much money we actually rely on Volke to get by that point.

If they want to fight more, surely they'd want to just run forward and self-heal near enemies rather than run back to be healed?

I'd think they'd like to use their player phase to fight.

not really, I fail to see anyone with <20 HP lategame.

That's not the point. Since you did such a good job at showing how durable most of our units are, I fail to see how +10 HP won't suffice until a healer shows.

This is a very minor point anyway, and will only usually apply if all of our healers have already healed, which is unlikely because I never find myself with 3+ units in serious danger.

He'll survive an attack, teh only way the def truly comes in necessary is if you throw him amongst a group of enemies.

Or if he untransforms by accident on the player phase and there are still enemies around.

Except you've never really countered the idea that Volke provides bonsues too: through the help of stat-boosters. +2 Def 100% of the time > + 2 def 80 % of the time.

You've not really countered the fact that I don't actually need Volke for that. There isn't a single stat booster he can get that Sothe can't. On the other hand, Mist is the only one who can provide Jill and Titania with +2-3 Def. Oh, and also Res, which a Dracoshield won't do. And if Mist's bonuses aren't very helpful themself, I fail to see how +2 def past Ch 16 is game breaking.

1) Opening doors faster is anotehr reason why Volke > Mist, as we don't want units spending 2-3 turns trying to break doors.

2-3 turns? wtf? Those can be taken down in one turn, or I can use Door Keys.

2) A priest can heal an ally and possibly turn 2RKO's into 3RKO's after healing said enemy after the enemy attacked. BY stealing the stave from said enemy or killing said enemy in this case, Volek stops this from happening. Aka positive utility.

I don't know what's up with this game's AI, but I've never seen a Priest heal another enemy, even when they've got minimal health left. Even so, there are like 4-5 Priests that Volke will run into before Mist promotes, which is more than countered by her killing Mages and Sages better.

Not really.

Yes really. (Price, not the weapon)

Lol? Soren ORKO's almost anything he doubles.

he doubles.

Good luck with that. 10/10 Soren has ~17 AS, which starts missing out on enemies as soon as Ch. 21.

Even with his *small* support lead (lolwind, as you put it with Haar),

LolWind for Haar because Jill has Mist. Not lol for Sothe because Astrid only really has Makalov, and Tormod wants more avoid as well.

he has worse durability and is worse at stealing things, too. Oh and his combat is even more fail.

There is not a single Priest with 11 or more AS in this game, meaning Sothe can get all those awesome Physics just as easily. And since Thieving is the only real thing putting Volke so High and Sothe is practically as good, I fail to see how his combat and durability are significant, especially when Sothe has another way of helping our team that Volke never does.

Some faster guys with Physic start showing up around 23, but you only need to get Sothe to ~15 AS, which is 5-6 levels, and I think we can handle that if we can throw 7 levels of BEXP on Volke.

Oh, I almost forgot: Elincia. Who's a better healer than Mist come endgame thanks to +1 mov and flying to help her past obstacles to aid her durabiltiy with canto and healing prowess by reaching things faster. I'm ignoring combat as, quite frankly, it's healing vs theiving, and I'm comparing MIst as a healer to otehr healers.

The flying only very rarely helps her. Otherwise, Elincia is a better healer for three whole maps, but only when it comes to reaching allies. Or, since you like to hype Physic so much, she isn't, since Mist has something like 8 move + 12 Physic range while Elincia has 9 move + 6 Physic range, and 20 > 15.

And then Mist has supports and durability and combat, which matters for the Thieves, so it obviously matters here. But if it doesn't, Mist has that Physic range on Elincia while Volke has, like, nothing on Sothe, since it's healing vs. thieving after all.

So BS on Elincia > Mist for 3 maps.

JUst liek Mist's then. interesting...

Wtf is this? More ignoring my points and the fact that Mist's supports actually help her partners?

[grandjackal]

If I may chime in...

Here's what Volke is doing prior to Mist promotion.

-Picking Locks

-Picking Chests

-Stealing us weapons

-Doing Combat (as garbage as it might be, it's better than none, especially with Mist's durability).

Here's what Mist is doing

-Healing (Of which we also have Rhys, but the master seal arrives in this chapter. She cannot use it due to level. This means Illin/Soren could use it and bam, we have yet another staff user).

Mist is by no means unique up until she promotes. She needs experience and a seal to be unique in her own sense. Volke needs nothing to be of personal use until Sothe arrives, of which he is of better use in every possible way you can imagine.

She has supports, but by no means is she the sole supporter of those characters. A pony is nice, but I don't see all this as being as useful as Volke is for a piddling amount of gold.

[Florete]

@Robo Ky: I don't mean to be rude, but are you reading my posts at all?

[grandjackal]

@Robo Ky: I don't mean to be rude, but are you reading my posts at all?

I'm just stating my opinion. Mist actually needs things to be more useful than just another staffer, Volke does not. Advantage Volke.

Consider it a uhh...tl;dr deal ;;>> It's not YOUR posts that are long, if it's any consolation...

[Ether]

I'm gonna have to agree with Red Fox.

Mist's supports are obviously a huge win for her,as she is making many high/top tier characters even better.

Any of Mist's supporters would like her easily,so she essentially gets her pick.

In combat,so what if Mist uses forges,so do most people.She wont use her forge for everything,so it can last her long enough,as well as sonic sword use if she needs a temporary boost.Volke's offense is sub par unless he's using a stiletto,and those are very limited.One steel forge for Mist is equal to nearly 2 stiletto's for Volke,for kills,and owait,that's how many stiletto's Volke has before chapter 27,lol.Mist also has sonic sword uses,and by the time Volke can buy Stiletto's,oops,Silver forges,heck,Mist can tie Volke's max Mt at level 13 with a plain silver,with A mordy/B anyone(If it's Boyd,she has it at level 11),of course,she could grab a runesword at this point as well,and we all know how that turns out.

As for healing vs. Thieving.

This game throws money at you in insane amounts,and then keys + Sothe also detract from Volke,since there is only so much to pick/steal,not to mention Sothe supports Astrid,and improves her suspect durability,so he helps the team when he isn't stealing,which is more than Volke can say.

"but there are more healers than thieves!!!!".yeah,except healing can always find a use.For example.After nearly every enemy phase,someone will be injured.

Mist also has Canto,+1 move,and rescues better than Volke.

Supports,Offense,move,and healing >>>>>>>> Thieving.

[Colonel M]

My problem isn't hating Mist. It's the overinflation of somewhat hyping it to an extent.

Regardless, taking a stance on either side seems difficult since despite how much Red Fox is attempting to brush Volke's combat and Kirsche with Mist's combat... one has it earlier than the other. It is true how the Healer : Thieving ratio is in Volke's favor too. I'm not totally denying other points made though.

With being able to make a forge per chapter even those seem iffy in some regard since it's true: EVERYONE wants one. Not denying this entirely, but also not denying Volke some BEXP levels.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Colonel M

[Ether]

My problem isn't hating Mist. It's the overinflation of somewhat hyping it to an extent.

Regardless, taking a stance on either side seems difficult since despite how much Red Fox is attempting to brush Volke's combat and Kirsche with Mist's combat... one has it earlier than the other. It is true how the Healer : Thieving ratio is in Volke's favor too. I'm not totally denying other points made though.

With being able to make a forge per chapter even those seem iffy in some regard since it's true: EVERYONE wants one. Not denying this entirely, but also not denying Volke some BEXP levels.

But before promotion,Volke's combat is far from stellar,it's there,but Mist's better combat post promotion outweighs Volke's eh combat before,since neither of them use it as a main role.

As for the ratio,Sothe can do anything Volke can do,his existence cuts into Volke's utility because there is only so much to take.Healingb can always find a way to be useful,no matter how many healers there are.

As for Forges vs BEXP,assuming a 10 man team,everyone gets 2 forges.Any laguz in play,people get more.Titania/other people who don't use a forge for a good chunk of their existence,more forges for others.Everyone wants exp to function.

[Colonel M]

My problem isn't hating Mist. It's the overinflation of somewhat hyping it to an extent.

Regardless, taking a stance on either side seems difficult since despite how much Red Fox is attempting to brush Volke's combat and Kirsche with Mist's combat... one has it earlier than the other. It is true how the Healer : Thieving ratio is in Volke's favor too. I'm not totally denying other points made though.

With being able to make a forge per chapter even those seem iffy in some regard since it's true: EVERYONE wants one. Not denying this entirely, but also not denying Volke some BEXP levels.

But before promotion,Volke's combat is far from stellar,it's there,but Mist's better combat post promotion outweighs Volke's eh combat before,since neither of them use it as a main role.

As for the ratio,Sothe can do anything Volke can do,his existence cuts into Volke's utility because there is only so much to take.Healingb can always find a way to be useful,no matter how many healers there are.

As for Forges vs BEXP,assuming a 10 man team,everyone gets 2 forges.Any laguz in play,people get more.Titania/other people who don't use a forge for a good chunk of their existence,more forges for others.Everyone wants exp to function.

Now we're teetering on straws.

First off, neither side actually addressed how good / terrible Volke's combat was. kirshe at least had the mention of him being able to do something significant (that being 2RKOing things) and his superflous AS might give him an edge against the Myrmidions. Neither actually gave comparisons to other teammates to actually show if I could judge either side. I wouldn't say that Mist post-promotion is much better either because unlike the rest of the team her combat is pretty much hell-bent reliant on that forged Steel Sword.

Sothe can't do everything Volke can do. Red Fox noted that in the later chapters Sothe would technically need levels in order to get some of the goodies that Volke could at base. Because of his higher Spd and usually high Str, he has the better chances of stealing weapons that Sothe would normally have difficulty stealing. Granted Sothe can steal Staves, but the game doesn't 100% revolve around the Staves. Either way, thieving has its uses and so does healing. Doesn't mean that Mist has a major win or Volke has a minor win, w/e.

We also don't have a set man team (from what I recall), which can again teeter on what we're talking about. Some of the units want forges early on and still continuing later on, and tbh the higher-end units that can show significant combat performance (as in pulling constant ORKOes) is usually the favored choice. Trading doesn't solve everything either because it isn't 100% consistent and runs a risk of losing the flexibility of the phase in general. Trading doesn't entirely solve Shinon's problems in FE10, the same case can be made here.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Colonel M

[Ether]

My problem isn't hating Mist. It's the overinflation of somewhat hyping it to an extent.

Regardless, taking a stance on either side seems difficult since despite how much Red Fox is attempting to brush Volke's combat and Kirsche with Mist's combat... one has it earlier than the other. It is true how the Healer : Thieving ratio is in Volke's favor too. I'm not totally denying other points made though.

With being able to make a forge per chapter even those seem iffy in some regard since it's true: EVERYONE wants one. Not denying this entirely, but also not denying Volke some BEXP levels.

But before promotion,Volke's combat is far from stellar,it's there,but Mist's better combat post promotion outweighs Volke's eh combat before,since neither of them use it as a main role.

As for the ratio,Sothe can do anything Volke can do,his existence cuts into Volke's utility because there is only so much to take.Healingb can always find a way to be useful,no matter how many healers there are.

As for Forges vs BEXP,assuming a 10 man team,everyone gets 2 forges.Any laguz in play,people get more.Titania/other people who don't use a forge for a good chunk of their existence,more forges for others.Everyone wants exp to function.

Now we're teetering on straws.

First off, neither side actually addressed how good / terrible Volke's combat was. kirshe at least had the mention of him being able to do something significant (that being 2RKOing things) and his superflous AS might give him an edge against the Myrmidions. Neither actually gave comparisons to other teammates to actually show if I could judge either side. I wouldn't say that Mist post-promotion is much better either because unlike the rest of the team her combat is pretty much hell-bent reliant on that forged Steel Sword.

Sothe can't do everything Volke can do. Red Fox noted that in the later chapters Sothe would technically need levels in order to get some of the goodies that Volke could at base. Because of his higher Spd and usually high Str, he has the better chances of stealing weapons that Sothe would normally have difficulty stealing. Granted Sothe can steal Staves, but the game doesn't 100% revolve around the Staves. Either way, thieving has its uses and so does healing. Doesn't mean that Mist has a major win or Volke has a minor win, w/e.

We also don't have a set man team (from what I recall), which can again teeter on what we're talking about. Some of the units want forges early on and still continuing later on, and tbh the higher-end units that can show significant combat performance (as in pulling constant ORKOes) is usually the favored choice. Trading doesn't solve everything either because it isn't 100% consistent and runs a risk of losing the flexibility of the phase in general. Trading doesn't entirely solve Shinon's problems in FE10, the same case can be made here.

Just like Volke's combat is even more reliant on Stiletto's,which are more limited than forges?

As for team size,it may not be set,but using even 11-12 people means Mist can still have 2 forges to herself.If we use less people than 10,Mist can probably use 3 to herself with no consequence.

Not to mention,Mist also has the sonic sword,and won`t be fighting all the time,only when she doesn`t need to heal.Her forges last her fine.

As for Sothe,if Volke can level,so can Sothe.If blossom is a problem for him,get rid of it.Sothe also has nearly double Volke`s def growth,so he improves more with the same levels,and gets them faster.

As for Volke`s early offense,Kirsche conveniently showed the weak volunteers.Against the weapon knights,the most common enemy on the map,he is pathetic.

Then lolRaven`s that Volke probably doesn`t double.

he does ok in 13,but he`s thieving then anyway.

then 15 is lolLaguz.His combat fails here.

by 16 his 2-3RKOing is getting pretty Meh,and then 17 has cavs and Mist`s promotion.

[Eltoshen]

-Healing (Of which we also have Rhys, but the master seal arrives in this chapter. She cannot use it due to level. This means Illin/Soren could use it and bam, we have yet another staff user).

How are they ready to promote already by the time Mist joins? Are you playing easy mode? Because if that's so, I was able to get Gatrie promoted before he left my group. >_>

However, I'll state it again: Volke and Mist have totally different purposes. Debating over who's more useful is foolish since everybody has different playing styles.

@above: Everybody seems hellbent over not killing the laguz, so your argument won't hold any ground here. And his utility is REQUIREDAMAZING in that chapter if you want to get all the items.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Ether]

-Healing (Of which we also have Rhys, but the master seal arrives in this chapter. She cannot use it due to level. This means Illin/Soren could use it and bam, we have yet another staff user).

How are they ready to promote already by the time Mist joins? Are you playing easy mode? Because if that's so, I was able to get Gatrie promoted before he left my group. >_>

However, I'll state it again: Volke and Mist have totally different purposes. Debating over who's more useful is foolish since everybody has different playing styles.

@above: Everybody seems hellbent over not killing the laguz, so your argument won't hold any ground here. And his utility is REQUIREDAMAZING in that chapter if you want to get all the items.

He wanted to see Volke`s combat,so i showed it to him.besides,if the only thing we are killing is Muarim,then lol at Volke.Sothe can also find items just like Volke.