FE6 hard mode tier list, take 2

[Dat Nick]

You can't punish Bartre twice for being worse than Echidna.

I can punish him for making Gonzales worse, giving us a slightly more fragile dancer, and perhaps most importantly, fucking us out of Killer Axes for midgame.

Let's draw the line somewhere, you just can't ignore all four of the inconveniences that come with Bartre.

[Florete]

You can't punish Bartre twice for being worse than Echidna.

I can punish him for making Gonzales worse, giving us a slightly more fragile dancer, and perhaps most importantly, fucking us out of Killer Axes for midgame.

Let's draw the line somewhere, you just can't ignore all four of the inconveniences that come with Bartre.

Didn't we determine that it's not Bartre's fault, but simply the route he happens to be on? When discussing Bartre's position, his "team" will simply have all of that that you just described (though I believe the only reason Elphin < Lalum is because Echidna > Bartre). It'll count against him, just be sure not to put too much weight on it.

EDIT: Wrong inequality.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Colonel M]

You can't punish Bartre twice for being worse than Echidna.

I can punish him for making Gonzales worse, giving us a slightly more fragile dancer, and perhaps most importantly, fucking us out of Killer Axes for midgame.

Let's draw the line somewhere, you just can't ignore all four of the inconveniences that come with Bartre.

Didn't we determine that it's not Bartre's fault, but simply the route he happens to be on? When discussing Bartre's position, his "team" will simply have all of that that you just described (though I believe the only reason Elphin > Lalum is because Echidna > Bartre). It'll count against him, just be sure not to put too much weight on it.

This is how I've always viewed it. Same with Karel / Harken, Geitz / Wallace, etc.

[Vykan12]

If Bartre is such a victim of circumstance, shouldn't Elphin drop a tier as well?

@Red Fox:

Okay, but what about the part in the quote? >_>

I really don't follow.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Corn on the cob

[dondon151]

I can punish him for making Gonzales worse, giving us a slightly more fragile dancer, and perhaps most importantly, fucking us out of Killer Axes for midgame.

Let's draw the line somewhere, you just can't ignore all four of the inconveniences that come with Bartre.

So what, are we suddenly attributing the properties of Bartre's route to Bartre? Because if that's the case, Echidna > Gonzo for giving us early Killer Axes and, most obviously, the Gonzo that went above her in the first place. Obviously no one is going to buy that, but you're going to willingly condone a double standard?

And Elphin is not worse than Lalum to any extent that matters. He starts with 3 less res and 1 more HP but has better defensive growths across the board, so that gap closes in 8 levels. He has superior base defense. And he has support options in Klein and Percival whereas Lalum only has Echidna, but it's not like either of those are that significant when they grow rather slowly after taking into account that a dancer's role is not conducive to having other units end their turns in an adjacent position.

[Florete]

If Bartre is such a victim of circumstance, shouldn't Elphin drop a tier as well?

The point is that he shouldn't be such a victim of circumstance.

By the way, did you see what I mentioned about how Percival went to Top already on FEG?

I really don't follow.

Wait, I thought you took this from FEG. Percival went to Top there.

>_>

Edited November 23, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[grandjackal]

I notice Vykan's throwing out an interesting tidbit of durability able to equate to avoid, like in the Bartre-Roy comparison (I think we know my opinions of Bartre), however it makes me want to ask you, Vykan, about a couple units that have something similar going for them, in different ways.

Barth

Douglas

Garret

Bartre is basically Garret with a bit more speed and a Fir support and bows, but not the free crit bonus or the terrain advantage (an axer in lance heavy flier chapters, there's mountains usually nearby. Hmmm....).

Barth? Well give him a level, promote him, check out how he does in the isles. You might be surprised. Continue to observe him, and you notice he's quite a bit like...

Douglas, without quite the shiny weapon ranks, or perhaps the HP. However, these two while not great in Ilia due to speed, are great in Sacae (the armors I mean, Garret's more an Ilia guy), because the only thing that can hurt them are the few mages running about. While the latter two might not have the offense to compensate (though at times,slayers can save the day with them), they do have things going for them.

I would bring up Boris again, but I have been promptly served my ass about him several times in the past before...

[Progenitus]

Which a lot of people seemed to agree with. And since Lot is in upper-mid, it follows that Gonzales should be too. Either that, or Sacae!Lot should be in high. Orrr, there's the possibility that the importance of Sacae route is being grossly exaggerated. Feel free to offer input on the matter.

Why would Lot be better than Gonzo? I guess Lot does have good durability after supports, but Gonzo isn't that bad either (massive HP wtf) and he completely crushes Lott in offense. Lot doesn't hit Gonzo's base spd until about lvl 13, and doesn't hit Gonzo's base str until 20/4, and when Gonzo promotes for 30 crit it's pretty much game over for offense. He also doesn't reach Gonzo's base def until 10/0 and base HP until 20/0, so while Lott has a higher def growth + wtfsupports, he still needs to get them up before he has a significant lead.

I recall Jackal exaggerating negative details about his earlygame performance, otherwise I dunno. Durability has a lot to do with it though.

He avoids player phase counters so it's a lot easier to work with his durability. He's also ideal for an early promo because of staves.

I would also say Thany down, but it seems Thany has already caused several flame wars, so I'll leave it at that. I'd say that Lugh should at least be above Roy, but I'm a bit lazy and I should actually be studying for a test, so I'll come back on this later.

[grandjackal]

He avoids player phase counters so it's a lot easier to work with his durability. He's also ideal for an early promo because of staves.

Clarine doesn't want weapon rank?

Saul wouldn't be faster and still have the exp gain of an unpromoted unit thanks to his class?

That, and Lou's not exactly free with that, as he'd lose doubling power later in the game (Sage speed bonus is a measily 1, Lou's not exactly miraculously fast without those extra levels).

It's less his durability (it is a problem early on, but I don't think it was a mystery to anyone), but rather he doesn't see any relevent improvement until the desert. That's practically half the game of just training him.

[Vykan12]

I notice Vykan's throwing out an interesting tidbit of durability able to equate to avoid, like in the Bartre-Roy comparison

Well to me it’s all a function of CoD (chance of death). Getting killed in 2 hits is usually terrible for CoD unless your avoid is through the roof relative to enemies (like facing 5 display hit), but even then concrete durability usually wins for having a 0% CoD in 2 attacks. It would be different if say, one character dies in 3 hits at 10 real and another dies in 5 hits at 80 real. As soon as the first character dodges 2 hits that the other character faces (which is highly probable), then he very easily wins durability (same # of hits, much more avo).

Bartre is basically Garret […]

We have to deal with Bartre’s circumstance issue before I can give this any thought.

Barth? Well give him a level, promote him, check out how he does in the isles. You might be surprised. Continue to observe him, and you notice he's quite a bit like...

Yeah 29hp/18 def is wtfhigh. 8AS + massive con means no fighters or pirates will double him on the isles, and even with steel they only do 5 damage (a 6RKO).

What worries me is Barth’s offence though. Now he only has 17 base hit and axes/lances, which is a pretty awful combination. Combine that with basically never doubling and crap mobility and you have arguably the worst offensive unit on the team.

I see your point though. Does anybody else think Barth > Douglas?

I would bring up Boris again, but I have been promptly served my ass about him several times in the past before...

Boris sounds like a Russian name, so pull a soviet Russia argument.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Corn on the cob

[Vykan12]

Why would Lot be better than Gonzo? I guess Lot does have good durability after supports, but Gonzo isn't that bad either (massive HP wtf) and he completely crushes Lott in offense. Lot doesn't hit Gonzo's base spd until about lvl 13, and doesn't hit Gonzo's base str until 20/4, and when Gonzo promotes for 30 crit it's pretty much game over for offense. He also doesn't reach Gonzo's base def until 10/0 and base HP until 20/0, so while Lott has a higher def growth + wtfsupports, he still needs to get them up before he has a significant lead.

Lot comes in C2 while Gonzo joins on C10-11, so it's not at all unreasonable for Lot to be past lv 13 when he joins. Otherwise I agree. Pretty sure Lot's ability to use bows was blown ridiculously out of proportion.

[Progenitus]

Clarine doesn't want weapon rank?

Saul wouldn't be faster and still have the exp gain of an unpromoted unit thanks to his class?

That, and Lou's not exactly free with that, as he'd lose doubling power later in the game (Sage speed bonus is a measily 1, Lou's not exactly miraculously fast without those extra levels).

It's less his durability (it is a problem early on, but I don't think it was a mystery to anyone), but rather he doesn't see any relevent improvement until the desert. That's practically half the game of just training him.

Well not necessarily the first one you get. You could throw the ch 14 guiding ring on him (Lugh probably won't be lvl 20 when that shows up, so that still somewhat counts as "early promotion"). Promote him at lvl 15-18 or so.

Lot comes in C2 while Gonzo joins on C10-11, so it's not at all unreasonable for Lot to be past lv 13 when he joins. Otherwise I agree. Pretty sure Lot's ability to use bows was blown ridiculously out of proportion.

Oh no, I'm aware of Lot's level lead. The problem is that he needs the level lead just to roughly tie only some of Gonzo's base stats (he's still going to be losing HP/str), so even with supports it's hard to argue that he's doing significantly better even at join time.

Though saying Gonzo > Lot doesn't necessarily make Gonzo high tier. Again I'd do Gonzo vs someone in high tier, like Echidna or something, but I should really start studying >_>

Edited November 23, 2009 by Andrew W.K.

[Florete]

Vykan, I don't want to think you're ignoring me, but seriously:

If Bartre is such a victim of circumstance, shouldn't Elphin drop a tier as well?

The point is that he shouldn't be such a victim of circumstance.

By the way, did you see what I mentioned about how Percival went to Top already on FEG?

I really don't follow.

Wait, I thought you took this from FEG. Percival went to Top there.

>_>

[Vykan12]

I didn't take that argument from FEG, I made it today. If Percival was in top tier on genesis, it was a change that Mekkah made before any topics were made there.

Anyway, seems unanimous so up Percival goes.

[Colonel M]

Clarine doesn't want weapon rank?

Saul wouldn't be faster and still have the exp gain of an unpromoted unit thanks to his class?

That, and Lou's not exactly free with that, as he'd lose doubling power later in the game (Sage speed bonus is a measily 1, Lou's not exactly miraculously fast without those extra levels).

It's less his durability (it is a problem early on, but I don't think it was a mystery to anyone), but rather he doesn't see any relevent improvement until the desert. That's practically half the game of just training him.

Well not necessarily the first one you get. You could throw the ch 14 guiding ring on him (Lugh probably won't be lvl 20 when that shows up, so that still somewhat counts as "early promotion"). Promote him at lvl 15-18 or so.

Lot comes in C2 while Gonzo joins on C10-11, so it's not at all unreasonable for Lot to be past lv 13 when he joins. Otherwise I agree. Pretty sure Lot's ability to use bows was blown ridiculously out of proportion.

Oh no, I'm aware of Lot's level lead. The problem is that he needs the level lead just to roughly tie only some of Gonzo's base stats (he's still going to be losing HP/str), so even with supports it's hard to argue that he's doing significantly better even at join time.

Though saying Gonzo > Lot doesn't necessarily make Gonzo high tier. Again I'd do Gonzo vs someone in high tier, like Echidna or something, but I should really start studying >_>

IOS, IIRC, did such a comparison.

I should really go write the article now.

[Florete]

I didn't take that argument from FEG, I made it today. If Percival was in top tier on genesis, it was a change that Mekkah made before any topics were made there.

Anyway, seems unanimous so up Percival goes.

>_>

And I was talking about taking the list from FEG.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Vykan12]

The problem is Mekkah doesn't update the FEG list much at all. If anything, he should copy the list from here since I implemented most of the changes that were supposed to happen.

IOS, IIRC, did such a comparison.

I checked his entire posting history here (is that creepy?) and didn't find anything.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Corn on the cob

[Colonel M]

FEGenesis, Vykan.

[Don Draper]

O_o

In all seriousness though, I think I just linked to one of Reikken's posts with regards to Lot vs. Gonzales on fegenesis.

[grandjackal]

Well to me it’s all a function of CoD (chance of death). Getting killed in 2 hits is usually terrible for CoD unless your avoid is through the roof relative to enemies (like facing 5 display hit), but even then concrete durability usually wins for having a 0% CoD in 2 attacks. It would be different if say, one character dies in 3 hits at 10 real and another dies in 5 hits at 80 real. As soon as the first character dodges 2 hits that the other character faces (which is highly probable), then he very easily wins durability (same # of hits, much more avo).

How about Combat Ratio? Example.

Random schmuck 2RKOs an enemy, they 3RKO him back, he has a ratio of 1 to that enemy.

Random schumuck 3RKOs an enemy, is 2RKOd back. They have a ratio of -1 to that enemy.

Random schmuck is 2RKOd by hte enemy, 2RKOs in return. Ratio is 0 for that enemy.

It measures how many rooms of error you have in case of let's say you miss. If you have a high ratio, you can afford to miss a few times. If you have a near 0 ratio, you might wanna be careful. If you have a negative ratio, you have no business being near that enemy.

Yeah 29hp/18 def is wtfhigh. 8AS + massive con means no fighters or pirates will double him on the isles, and even with steel they only do 5 damage (a 6RKO).

What worries me is Barth’s offence though. Now he only has 17 base hit and axes/lances, which is a pretty awful combination. Combine that with basically never doubling and crap mobility and you have arguably the worst offensive unit on the team.

I see your point though. Does anybody else think Barth > Douglas?

Speaking of ratio, this is something Barth has a LOT of during the isles. He might have crap accuracy (though someone like OJ or generally any of his supports could help circumvent), but he can afford to miss. Granted he's not doubling so he suffers far worse from a miss, but it's not like he's gonna be so drastically punished any time soon.

Another advantage is that he can just rescue someone and sit there if they're in danger. He might get doubled, but he's still taking it like a champ.

That 5 damage is from merely the strongest units there with steel axes. Look over everybody else, notice they actually struggle to even hurt him.

Boris sounds like a Russian name, so pull a soviet Russia argument.

Bors sounds like a made up noise, and the arguments against him have been noisy.

Basically the arguments have been "He has the worst move, so he's never getting any kills earlygame". However, that's ignoring the fact that he has the durability to get plenty of ratios (he's got accuracy issues in let's say chapter 1, but unlike everyone else aside from Marcus, those axers that don't double him do only 3RKO him so he does have some semblence of durability even there). Since most of earlygame is axers, there's no reason Lance shouldn't be using swords at this time. This also means that he has no reason to use that javelin, which Boris should lift off his hands immediately, cause he has no other weapon option. It's mainly to bolster his weapon rank, and help circumvent his move problem slightly (not completely, but it's there).

Basically it would go by a chapter by chapter comparison of his earlygame chapters.

Chapter 1: His durability has the ability to be better or worse than everyone else's save Marcus in the positive field depending on the enemy speed. He might have the worst accuracy on the team, but he also has no reason not to use the javelin to avoid a counter (Lance shouldn't need to because Marcus chips for everyone, and a sword shouldn't miss), and the fact that on some enemies he can in fact pull a durability advantage (the 6 speed fighters, the archers). His only factor is accuracy, an the 7 speed fighters that are sprinkled about. Otherwise, I don't see what's so special about Walt, or Roy for that matter since unlike Boris, he doesn't have a ranged option. Also, have Lance or Allen rescue someone who's in danger, tell me how well that works out for ya.

Chapter 2: Well, that's some ground we have to cover, but there's no reason he shouldn't be transported. We have 3 cavs, 1 for Roy, one for Ellen, and a free one. Who's the competition, Walt? Pfft, fuck that noise. Might as well bring Boris to the party over at Deick's house. People said that this should count against him for some reason, despite the fact they see no enemies between Deick and Roy's group, nor did they see that it would be stupid to not transport a full team rather than just 2/3s of one.

Chapter 3: He's comparable to Ward, since only advantages Ward has is hammering the few knights around and doubling javelin guys, but on the other hand you culd compare ratios of Ward and Boris, notice that Boris has far more room for error. He can 2RKO fine, which is what Ward would be doing to most of the soldiers with their 2 AS either way. I'd say durability>doubling one enemy type, needing a slayer anyways for the other.

Chapter 4: The Halberd would make Ward a winner here, if it didn't weigh him down and was incredibly risky in accuracy, along with some sword users spattered about. It would weigh Ward down to 3 speed, Boris's speed base. With 4 chapters to build levels, I'd say Boris could have at least gotten a speed up in that time, so Boris could potentially be a safer guy to have in front of you. Besides, what if Ward misses? He is fucked, you know. However, Boris could pick him up, and be perfectly able to keep him safe. This goes for Lot as well, something Ward can't do. Then's the fact that here, the only time Boris faces something not WTA is when hte pirates show up, which case I say you're taking too long.

Chapter 5: THIS is a place Boris sucks. I don't even want to go into detail about it.

Chapter 6: Come on, look at this place. Plenty of the soldiers have steel so Boris can double easily by now, the other enemy types are mercs which would tink him, armors of which he could also probably double by now. His only problem are those dam mages. On top of that, Boris has a shiny new Gant spear to work with.

Chapter 7: Probably the most bizarre turn, because it's hectic. Basically it all comes down to if Boris can have access to silver by now, of which has been proven to my face not to be possible ;;>>

Basically I just think people are exaggerating how bad Boris is early on. He's not good really, but he's not the shit people think he is. Early on anyways, later on he's probably comparable to Barth (like archers, armors want to promote as soon as possible, yet another reason Wendy sucks), except he actually has a speed growth as to help avoid being doubled. Even then, the only way Boris could have significant performance iwth an early promo is if he promo;'d at level 13, which by the first crest people have viewed as impossible.

...You could say it's a troublesome situation for him, and thus you could see why he's in low ^^;; I only brought it up cause uhh...It's sort of a can of worms ;;>>

Edited November 23, 2009 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Vykan12]

How about Combat Ratio? Example.

Random schmuck 2RKOs an enemy, they 3RKO him back, he has a ratio of 1 to that enemy.

Random schumuck 3RKOs an enemy, is 2RKOd back. They have a ratio of -1 to that enemy.

Random schmuck is 2RKOd by hte enemy, 2RKOs in return. Ratio is 0 for that enemy.

It measures how many rooms of error you have in case of let's say you miss. If you have a high ratio, you can afford to miss a few times. If you have a near 0 ratio, you might wanna be careful. If you have a negative ratio, you have no business being near that enemy.

I can see how that would be an effective measurement in many FEs, but it has problems in a general sense. For example, if you 1HKO an enemy and they 1HKO you back, you have no business attacking them unless it’s at range or you have 100 display hit. Likewise, if you do 1 damage to an enemy and the enemy tinks you back, you’ll have a positive ratio despite sucking horribly on offence.

Oh, and this also fails to take into account concrete durability vs avoid-based durability. If Rutger gets 2HKOed while facing 0 display hit, he’ll get a negative ratio despite being invincible, as a drastic example.

On top of that, Boris has a shiny new Gant spear to work with.

The gant lance is an awesome weapon. It’s basically a steel lance without the ridiculous weight. Why would Bors get dibs on it?

*rest of Bors post*

…

I think the major issue with armors is that they thrive off of promotion because of +4hp/def (massive durability boost) and +3 spd (much less getting doubled) plus extra move and weapon type (most other characters get that too though), but then that's at the expense of other characters. Though honestly, I don't see why witholding a top tier from promotion is any more harmful than witholding someone else aside from the difference in enemy exposure they get.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Corn on the cob

[grandjackal]

I can see how that would be an effective measurement in many FEs, but it has problems in a general sense. For example, if you 1HKO an enemy and they 1HKO you back, you have no business attacking them unless it’s at range or you have 100 display hit. Likewise, if you do 1 damage to an enemy and the enemy tinks you back, you’ll have a positive ratio despite sucking horribly on offence.

Oh, and this also fails to take into account concrete durability vs avoid-based durability. If Rutger gets 2HKOed while facing 0 display hit, he’ll get a negative ratio despite being invincible, as a drastic example.

The situations you listed are incredibly unlikely. It's hard to OHKO something that ORHKOs you back (like Bern wyvern lords against like who, Lou if he's not on a mountain?). I can't imagine anyone who gets tinked in this game and only does 1 damage back.

Of course, there is scenarios with avoid, but this is why we bring up ratios when someone isn't necessarily dodging, like Ward vs Boris.

However, you DID in a way bring it up with Roy and Bartre.

You basically said that Roy's pretty hard to hit, but if he does he's another hit from death. Bartre might not be as hard to hit, but he can actually take a number more. While Roy is quite a bit harder to hit to the point of mattering, despite Bartre able to take shots like a champ and yet still dodge (you also forgot to mention the Fir support), they'd basically tie.

You basically used it already.

The gant lance is an awesome weapon. It’s basically a steel lance without the ridiculous weight. Why would Bors get dibs on it?

Why wouldn't he? Chapter 6, no one's doubling the mercs, he's doubling the slow-ass enemies that everyone else is, he's the harder one to kill. Why wouldn't he, at least for this chapter?

…

I think the major issue with armors is that they thrive off of promotion because of +4hp/def (massive durability boost) and +3 spd (much less getting doubled) plus extra move and weapon type (most other characters get that too though), but then that's at the expense of other characters. Though honestly, I don't see why witholding a top tier from promotion is any more harmful than witholding someone else aside from the difference in enemy exposure they get.

I've checked the numbers, an early promotion tends to hurt you paladins a bit (promote the Ilians early, tell me how well that goes, with the Phereans it's similar only it bites them in hte ass later in the game rather than just absolutely nuking them). An armor has always sucked during midgame, and an early promo tends to destroy that in the same way it did to help Thany suck less during hte isles.

That's not the problem, the problem is Boris needs to get to level 13 by the first crest to have anything noticeable on Barth (doubling steel pirates at the start, 1 more defense, 8 more HP). Even then, Barth has some answers to respond to that with, such as a support with Lillina (I know both are lower mid, just lemme explain) boosts his defense a point a support level, and helps to boost his acc. So while Boris could perhaps be doubled less, Barth has ways to bolster his defense to even more stupendous levels (General Barth and Lillina have the same move, 30+2 speed so the C comes in 15 turns, the B at 30 so it's a rather fast support) quicker, along with helping someone become tougher (Lillina certainly would love an AB with Barth and Gonzo for +5 Def, OJ would love any help he can get despite his Wind affinity working against his needs).

Basically the problem is even with training, Boris can quickly get replaced for that crest by Barth, who will be a far superior general until Boris starts doubling consistantly, which...might not happen if promoted early.

For all intensive purposes, Barth is your best general for the needs you would want a general around for.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Vykan12]

Why wouldn't he? Chapter 6, no one's doubling the mercs, he's doubling the slow-ass enemies that everyone else is, he's the harder one to kill. Why wouldn't he, at least for this chapter?

Picture this: In some random chapter, Lance wants to double an enemy with a weapon that has more mt than an iron lance, and also doesn’t want to hurt his avo. In fact, this holds true for any lance using character with less than 15 con.

For all intensive purposes, Barth is your best general for the needs you would want a general around for.

And that’s consistent with the current list (aside from Douglas being > Barth, but I agree with you there), so what’s the problem?

[dondon151]

Picture this: In some random chapter, Lance wants to double an enemy with a weapon that has more mt than an iron lance, and also doesn’t want to hurt his avo. In fact, this holds true for any lance using character with less than 15 con.

Like, I dunno, chapter 6 soldiers (which ironically is the same chapter that Grandjackal suggested giving Bors the Gant Lance).

[Ether]

So i guess no one has any input on Tate?

*Looks back*

Anyway,What do you guys think of Ilia Tate > Klein?

When they join,Klein is great,with his Player phase nuking,but that's just it,he only has player phase.On player phase offense,he has 6 Str Vs. Tate's 2 Spd,so he wins,but then she has enemy phase contributions and Flying utility to counter.

And it only gets better for Tate,while their growths are similar,(Tate wins Str,Skl,and Spd slightly),Tate grows at a much quicker rate,and with Elysian whips pretty much uncontested,Tate can promote basically whenever she wants,netting her 6 Hp and

2 Str/Skl/Spd/Def/Res.

Klien also won;t be doubling forever,so his offense drops off significantly after a while,while Tate still has flying and Enemy phase.

I was going to write something but just realized that Tate gets HM bonuses for some reason. Still, you’re ignoring Tate’s spd loss due to her terrible con, and the details are a bit sketchy, so I’ll have a closer look at this later.

I feel that losing Echidna as well as the better Gonzo, and to an extent the slightly better dancer, does not make Bartre same tier as Roy. Or at least on Sacae, as nomads might double him. Maybe he could rise on Ilia, but I'm still against that.

Fair enough. Though, this fault varies according to whether we actually deploy Echidna/super Gonzo/Lalum or not.

Don't forget no Killer Axes buyable in C11. That's a very notable and yet often overlooked point.

>_> That’s just plain weird. They sell killer axes on one route but not the other, and in the C13 shop they sell 3/4 of the killer weapon types, inconveniently leaving killer axes out, which we have to wait for until 18B.

Hey Vykan.

Clarine did as well (get moved to top tier on genesis)

I think Cats summed this up best:

Aside from just poor offense, Clarine doesn't have any significant wins over Ellen/Saul until promotion. Her supports are slow and won't be around during pre-promotion time (maybe C's towards the tail end of this time period), and durability isn't nearly as important since none of them should be getting attacked if you can avoid it. All she really has is move, though Ellen has availability, and Saul is harder to OHKO for whatever that's worth.

Anyways, the point is that Clarine's advantages over these two only exist in any significant capacity for half the game. There's a one tier gap between lots of combat units whose differences are relevant for the entire game (Roy vs Ward for example), so I certainly don't see how there's a two tier gap for advantages that only matter for half the game.

This could mean moving Ellen + Saul up instead, but I think someone insisted that Clarine’s offence wasn’t good enough for top.

tate does lose some AS from weapons,but it's partially mitigated by her natural AS lead,and tate can promote wheverver she wants and gain an effective 3 AS,as well as lighter swords,and in comparison to Klein,she will be gaining speed faster due to leveling speed.

The biggest factor is again,tate not only has enemy phase,but she also has Flight,rescue,move,and such things.