FE6 hard mode tier list, take 2

[Vykan12]

Echidman vs Speedy Gonzales

This game has a weird tendency of throwing hilariously under-levelled units with HM bonuses at you (Rutger, Fir, and Miledy come to mind). Gonzales is no exception.

In fact, wow. 12-13 exp/hit and 49-50 exp/kill is like he took one of your average levelled units and tossed paragon onto them. Still, Gonzales can join at best on turn 6, so I wouldn’t expect more than 2 levels.

Gonzales lv 7/0: 44 hp, 7 def, 1 res

Iron axe: 25 atk, 82.5 hit, 12 AS, 31 avo

Echidna lv --/1: 35 hp, 8 def, 7 res

Steel sword: 21 atk, 111 hit, 17 AS, 40 avo

Steel axe: 24 atk, 91 hit, 12 AS, 30 avo

On a side note, 0_0 x 30 at Gonzales’ hp. This is the first character I’ve ever seen that caps hp at 20/1. He also has C15 Percival’s base str at lv 12/0. His accuracy must really destroy him if he’s not at the top of high.

Anyway, Echidna definitely wins offence. >= AS to him and higher hit definitely wins over slightly less atk. Durability-wise, Echidna probably wins again. 9 hp vs 1 def/6 res/0-9 avo/better WTC control.

Can Echidna keep up with Gonzales’ insane levelling rate though?

The C11 enemies are lv 14-16 instead of lv 11-14, which means 7/0 Gonzo is gaining EVEN MORE than 50 exp/kill. He won’t really slow down either; once he matches their levels, he’ll still be gaining 30/kill. Echidna, on the other hand, is gaining 8 exp/hit (same for kill). You could give Gonzales something like 8 levels to her 1.

Gonzales lv 15/0: 52 hp, 9 def, 1 res, 8.5 cev

Killer axe: 31 atk, 88 hit, 34.5 crit, 16 AS, 42 avo

Gonzales lv 15/1: 56 hp, 12 def, 1 res, 8.5 cev

Killer axe: 33 atk, 98 hit, 67 crit, 18 AS, 46 avo

Echidna lv --/2: 36 hp, 8 def, 7 res, 6 cev

Killing edge: 22 atk, 121 hit, 40 crit, 18 AS, 40 avo

Killer axe: 24 atk, 106 hit, 40 crit, 16 AS, 36 avo

This is a good time to talk about Gonzales’ early promotion. The most ideal time is around lv 12-15 since he has everything he wants (hp/str/spd) except what he can’t have (lousy growths in skl/def/res), the latter of which is fulfilled through a promotion (+5 skl wtf), and of course 32.5 crit. I can’t see the opportunity cost even being that high. He may withhold Dieck from getting a little AS and axes, but axes just trade lots of hit for some atk, so it’s quite easily less beneficial than gaining 10 hit AND 30 crit.

So, assuming Gonzales gets his promotion, he beats Echidna around the board pretty badly. 9+ atk means 18 more damage per double, and a hilarious amount more when crits are involved. They have about the same AS but then Gonzales has the con to wield axes while Echidna doesn’t. And obviously 27 crit is another monstrous lead. Defensively, the hp difference has grown to 20, and now Gonzo is winning avo and def by a decent margin. That >>> res.

Everything boils down to hitrate, but I think it’s easy to show ALL of Gonzales’ leads overwhelm that single advantage.

For example, check out this 17I cav:

Cav lv 15 (steel lance, javelin): 39 hp, 24 atk, 84 hit, 23 avo, 8 AS, 10 def, 4 res, 7 cev

Offensively, Gonzales 2HKOes while Echidna 3HKOes. The odds of Echidna landing all 3 hits is about 84%, whereas Gonzales landing 2 out of 3 hits is 95.86%. In addition, Echidna’s chance to crit at least once in 3 hits is ~70%. Gonzales’ chance to crit at least once in 2 hits is 84%.

Defensively, Gonzo is 5RKOed at 16 true hit while Echidna is 3RKOed at 29 true hit. CoD for Gonzales in 5 attacks is 0.01% while it’s 15% for Echidna. That’s a factor difference of about 1500.

Things only get better for Gonzales in the future. Both characters have roughly the same level now, but he curbstomps her in the growth department. 15 hp/30 str/-10 skl/20 spd/15 luck/10 def/-10 res advantages ftw. Supports help Gonzales more as well; if Lilina’s in play, he gets more hit, and Gonzo and Echidna happen to support each other, which gives him even more hit. Granted, Echidna can get hit from her own supports, but she never had a problem there to begin with. She also has a quick support with Lalum, but I’m iffy on dancers supporting fighters (I can dig up a post on why if you want). The rest of both characters’ support lists are 1+1, so I don’t think that’ll ever matter.

I have to say, I don’t just think Gonzales > Echidna, but that they could even have a tier separation, or at least be at polar opposites of the same tier. That’s reasonably possible considering there’s a bunch of utility units in high (thieves, dancers, healers) that can be shuffled around.

[Progenitus]

To be fair, I don't like the idea of withholding Dieck from promotion, since that guy would definitely appreciate +2 spd and a whooping +4 def. Axes is a good trade off too since Dieck has skl in spades so the hit loss doesn't bother him, and it gives him att + hand axe option. Then there's Rutger to consider as well. Also, both of them are much more likely to hit 20/0 before Gonzo, which means if you don't promote them they'll be gaining no exp rather than some.

You get a third crest by chapter 16 though so it shouldn't change too much, mostly since it doesn't look like a 15/0 Gonzo is losing to a 20/2 or 3 Echidna, if at all, anyway (basically hit + little bit of AS vs everything else). I guess this may make Fir/Lot worse, but... w/e. I guess instead of Gonzo being a tier higher than Echidna, instead he should just be above her.

[dondon151]

I thought Gonzo was above Echidna already.

And Echidna x Lalum is viable, just not that fast. For me they got to C in chapter 16.

Edited November 23, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

Picture this: In some random chapter, Lance wants to double an enemy with a weapon that has more mt than an iron lance, and also doesn’t want to hurt his avo. In fact, this holds true for any lance using character with less than 15 con.

What Dondon said. Really, afterwards I know it's better in the cavs' hands, I'm not stupid. Just pointing that out for that chapter.

And that’s consistent with the current list (aside from Douglas being > Barth, but I agree with you there), so what’s the problem?

Perhaps it's just me, as perhaps I'm a bit biased towards the armors ;;>> Was just wondering your thoughts is all.

[Vykan12]

What Dondon said.

Why does the gant lance have to be used at all in C6? It can be saved for later use by ANY lance user. Granted, if Bors uses it effectively in C6, that's a minor point in his favor.

[dondon151]

What I said was that Lance would like to use the Gant Lance in chapter 6 to ORKO soldiers. That doesn't seem to be what you guys are inferring.

[Vykan12]

That makes more sense now. When I read:

Like, I dunno, chapter 6 soldiers (which ironically is the same chapter that Grandjackal suggested giving Bors the Gant Lance).

I wasn't sure if this was sarcastic or not since Lance probably doubles soldiers with a steel lance.

[Vykan12]

Also, post by Moribalken on gfaqs.

Anyway, I haven't given up on anything, I just don't particularly feel like contributing after that. I've some things in real life that require most of my attention at the moment and can't be bothered to actually do legitimate comparisons before I take care of it. Not to mention I'd have to see some serious improvements in the quality there after that little episode.

I'll still lurk though the topic though, if it'll make you feel better. I'll figure the details out on my own instead of asking this time. Everyone tiers differently, I've no doubt there are more rules on the Serenes list than just "no ranks" and "complete asap".

It wouldn't kill us to look past what happened at the end of the past thread. Mori is a respectable debater, and losing her over a bad introduction would be a real pity.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Corn on the cob

[grandjackal]

If Mori's willing to go along with how the list works, fine.

If Mori is gonna do nothing but bitch about how the lists work, no.

I'll judge by how Mori handles him/herself from here on out.

[Tangerine]

I didn't complain about how your list works in the first place. Stop making things up.

[grandjackal]

I'd rather not start an argument again, so let's put it behind us, shall we?

So, watchya thin about Geese falling below Garret, if he isn't already?

9 Speed base, 10 con with a heavy weapon type, 40% growth with only 10 levels before promotion (meaning he's gonna have 12 speed at level 20, stills truggling to double some weighed down cavs at that point), promotion gives him a shitty +1 speed which brings him to 13, not doubling hte weighed down 10 AS pegasi of Ilia.

Was it worth it when we could have Garret, who is basically Bartre if he were a berserker? Fuck no.

[Florete]

So, watchya thin about Geese falling below Garret, if he isn't already?

Like you haven't even checked?

9 Speed base, 10 con with a heavy weapon type, 40% growth with only 10 levels before promotion (meaning he's gonna have 12 speed at level 20, stills truggling to double some weighed down cavs at that point),

lolwut.

Was it worth it when we could have Garret, who is basically Bartre if he were a berserker? Fuck no.

As if that's impressive? Besides, Geese will pretty much always win Spd and it doesn't take long to catch up in Str.

[grandjackal]

*Facedesk* I don't think I've ever failed so hard at math in my life. I'm supposed to be decent at it too...

I mean, I'm no calculus good, but I should be able to do basic addition x.x

[Don Draper]

Calculus really isn't that hard, but I digress.

The point I thought he was making was that he loses at least one speed from anything but an Iron Axe, meaning that his AS is going to drop to at least 12 anyways. Apparently not though...

[grandjackal]

Calculus really isn't that hard, but I digress.

The point I thought he was making was that he loses at least one speed from anything but an Iron Axe, meaning that his AS is going to drop to at least 12 anyways. Apparently not though...

That would mainly contribute to his early performance being worse than 9 speed would entail, as it basically means he's stuck to iron. Even a handy would weigh him down to 7. This point in time, having less than early promo Barth speed is dangerous as is, and that's not even the heaviest weapon, things that Geese needs to perform something better than shit while he's training himself.

Basically you need the brave axe to train him (2 shots before a counter increases the odds of him landing a finishing blow, though afterwards he is likely getting doubled). It's not bad that he has a way to get out of his bad moment instantly, but others would like that brave axe, and others could put it to better use.

[Vykan12]

From another topic.

Then Marcus is far, far too low. You do substantially worse without him. No substitutions of any kind can make up for what he offers. No one but top tiers and Lalum/Elphin (who should be top tier) can make that claim. Arguably Chad (who also should be top or near it)

About Geese, what's wrong with keeping him glued to iron/killer axes? Steel/hand axes are rarely useful for anybody because of their weight and lack of hit with very little exception (I'd say the closest is Echidna and her 18 base skl. Still, she gets weighed down by axes more than most other axe users).

Now you harp on his bad joining performance, but he's going to be levelling quite fast (think Gonzales + 5 levels), and he similarly has a lot to gain from promotion (5 hp, 3 str, 3 def, 8 hit, 32 crit). Garret joins in 15, which means Geese has 6 extra chapters when considering gaidens. Giving a little over 1.5 levels per chapter, he could reach lv 20/0 in time for C16 where promotion items become buyable.

As a quick comparison of Geese and Garret:

Geese lv 20/1: 47 hp, 18 str, 16 skl, 14 spd, 13 lck, 13 def, 1 res, 41 avo

Garret lv --/1: 49 hp, 17 str, 13 skl, 10 spd, 12 lck, 9 def, 4 res, 32 avo

Geese seems like a clear winner here. Note that Garret doesn't hit Geese's 20/1 speed until --/18. He also never matches Geese's 20/1 def and takes a dozen levels to match his 20/1 skill. Though, if Geese himself reached levels that high (let's say 20/15), he'd have 20.5 skill (4 gap)/20 spd (lol 6 gap)/16 def (3 gap). Oh, and Geese has a support lead on Garret for whatever that's worth.

Geese's "training" period would have to be a huge deterrent factor for him to be worse than Garret.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Corn on the cob

[Florete]

Vykan, you forgot HM bonuses.

[Vykan12]

Hmm that changes things considerably, though ironically Garret gets the least help where he'd like it most (spd). That definitely makes me more receptive to moving Geese below him. If Geese has trouble 2HKOing enemies before promotion I'll definitely make the move.

Edit: Having a quick look, a C11A fighter has 34 hp/5 def. With an iron axe, Geese indeed 3HKOes, but he doubles the ones that get weighed down by at least 2, which is most everyone since they love steel. The future is also nice to Geese. 12-14 are cav + wyvern heavy, and he can double them as long as they're using a heavy weapon like steel, which they almost always are. Chapter 16 is armor/mage heavy so he'll 2RKO for the most part (well 1RKO armors if we give him a buyable hammer) and the fighters haven't improved in speed at all, so he can double them even if they aren't weighed down.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Corn on the cob

[Colonel M]

Probably already known but don't forget Geese's near-monopoly on the Brave Axe, which can help him when he can't double something or is within 2HKO range.

[Vykan12]

Why can't anyone use the brave axe? Nobody has the rank yet?

[dondon151]

Probably already known but don't forget Geese's near-monopoly on the Brave Axe, which can help him when he can't double something or is within 2HKO range.

He has unreliable hit (like 60s) and 3 AS. And any other axe user wants the Brave Axe for that same purpose; Bartre especially likes it later on to be able to attack enemies twice.

[Colonel M]

Why can't anyone use the brave axe? Nobody has the rank yet?

Gonzo starts with C, so that's gonna be a while. Scratch out Marcus and Zealot. The only ones remaining are a trained Lott and Echinda / Bartre really. I guess "some" can use it then.

[grandjackal]

It weighs down Lot as well, and his speed is pretty borderline as is. Outside of supports, I also highly doubt Lot would be doing that much more damage with it. Lott would need o be level 13 to tie Geese's base Str.

Bartre's a fine example, but he's got other options himself. He can just use a slayer weapon if he wants, and I'd think you'd be daft to have him fight swordies such as heroes. What's he gonna use it for, the odd sage that's running about?

For Echidna, she's weighed down by 7 by the thing, which brings her down to 11 speed. You know, Bartre's speed. With only 3 more base strength, she'd only be doing 6 more damage, since it's logical to assume that if Bartre's not dobling with that speed, than neither would Echidna. She'd prefer killers.

There's Ward, but he has speed problems naturally. Ward slows down eventually, while Geese would be an investment. Ward would put it to better use (more power, more accuracy form supports, you get the point), but Ward is starting to slow down. It has that air that you're still wasting the weapon in a way.

But then there's Garret, who is attacking twice without a counter, which allows 2 chances to land a crit, which is pretty nice for a berserker. He also wouldn't require one o' dem seals. However, since he doesn't exist for 6 more chapters, Geese could have just used it up by then for his own purposes, helping him to catch up and then eventually surpass Garret.

Geese's problem is that even after training, 14 speed isn't exactly greased lightning (you have 1 more speed than a 20/1 Boris, hooray?). It doubles SOME things, just he's still a bit iffy.

That would be my main complaint, that he needs to be babied, and in the end the results aren't exactly perfect.

So while he has competition for it, it's not like he doesn't have a fair claim to it for his own purposes. It DOES have a use for him, as seeing as how Vykan displayed his starting combat parameters, we're going to be feeding him kills either way. The brave axe allows him two chances to land a blow rather than 1, which increases his chances to finish someone off, so it DOES ease the load of training him a little bit.

[dondon151]

It also allows him to take 2 hits rather than 1, and dying is not conducive to leveling up.

[Vykan12]

Gonzo starts with C, so that's gonna be a while.

Not really. It takes 18 perfect kills (hit, hit+kill) to get a weapon level-up, and promotion gives another one. Gonzo should have A axes by chapter 16 rather easily. Also, what about high str units who can 2HKO with the brave axe? It's the best player phase offense they can probably hope for, at least if some factors play in their favor (mainly WTA). If it shafts their enemy phase, just trade a lighter weapon into their inventory or something.