Narga_Rocks Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I don't think it's that hard for Micaiah to do well in 1-9. You just need to give her resolve, manipulate 20 spd on her and force her into high biorhythm. Then once you reach 1-9, stick her on some vines for the entirety of the chapter. She'll have 110 avo vs 110-120 hit rates, which means about a 0-2% real chance of death per attack. That can realistically be done without SD card save abuse, particularly if she's 2HKOed. Well, yeah, once you get her stats to that point. But it still takes lots of resetting for that 20 spd, and I'm thinking an SD card might be handy for that, too, since otherwise you have to manipulate 13 spd in 10 chapters (1-P to 1-8). I suppose on reset abused level for speed each map and then just hope that in her other 9 levels she'll get her 3 spd. Also, bexp in the 1-9 base so that her first attack gains a level to reset for, and she just needs to proc speed twice from her other chapters. But if we deny credit if it is impossible without the BK, is being able to reset abuse Micaiah's speed so that she can solo it enough to make it not "impossible" and thus make the chapter count for the BK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykan12 Posted December 17, 2009 Author Share Posted December 17, 2009 But if we deny credit if it is impossible without the BK, is being able to reset abuse Micaiah's speed so that she can solo it enough to make it not "impossible" and thus make the chapter count for the BK? First thing, 20 spd isn't a requirement, it's just ideal to minimize her death chances and have her double enemies. So if 16 AS is some bare minimum (24 AS after resolve should double fine), she'll actually hit that in whatever the %age of cases are where she's spd blessed. And yeah, I don't see why it shouldn't count. There are semi realistic means to have Micaiah solo 1-9, which pretty much invalidates the idea that the BK is playing some sort of irreplaceable role in 1-9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Why is resetting and stuff even being discussed though? That stuff is banned on tier lists from what I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) Why is resetting and stuff even being discussed though? That stuff is banned on tier lists from what I know. Well, she's got a 19% chance of having at least 16 speed. If her chance of living through that chapter (in however many turns it would take) is above 50% at 16 speed, that's arguably good enough to make BK not so necessary that it is like seizing and thus he gets no credit. The issue, however, is bio. You can delay on 1-8 to get her to be on best for a while, so it's not a huge issue. We already accept that not using BK is slower, so adding a few turns to 1-8 as well makes it even more inefficient, but it's not like we can't do that. The idea here is whether it is doable, not whether it is efficient. The issue here is the need to reset, though, I agree. Since she is more likely to have between 12 and 14 at this point, it makes things more questionable. Also it means she's not doubling a bunch of things. err, read that wrong. I'd say 13 to 15. 70% chance of at least 13, 81% chance of at most 15. (actually, a 51% chance of being in that range, so it's not like she's outside of it all that infrequently. But down is more likely than up, since there is 19% to play with above 15, but 30% to play with below it.) Edited December 17, 2009 by Narga_Rocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykan12 Posted December 17, 2009 Author Share Posted December 17, 2009 Why is resetting and stuff even being discussed though? That stuff is banned on tier lists from what I know. It's only "banned" in the context of abusing for the purpose of efficiency (eg/ resetting to get Haar to proc spd on every level-up). If you have to reset abuse to actually beat the game, that's fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CATS Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 The way I see it, turns spent on resets should count towards a chapter's total once you actually beat it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 The way I see it, turns spent on resets should count towards a chapter's total once you actually beat it. If we go by that definition then reset abusing Micaiah's speed as a means to justify BK getting credit for 1-9 is fine. Why are we still talking about BK on this thread? Anyway, instead of shaving off 15 turns (or whatever improvement he makes on a solo Micaiah run) he now shaves off those turns in addition to the number or resets spent getting Micaiah speed. And if any of those resets happened on levels gained after turn 1, then all the additional turns as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candlejack Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 WTF IS THIS SHIT. FE11 in mah FE6 topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 WTF IS THIS SHIT. FE11 in mah FE6 topic? a: It's fe10, not 11 b: how is this "your" fe6 topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candlejack Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I meant FE10. And why the hell are we discussing FE10 in the FE6 HM topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykan12 Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 Because we're discussing the value of Marcus' earlygame utility. It should become apparent if you read the last 10-20 posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candlejack Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Okay, I'll read minor sidecomments next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CATS Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 (edited) It really does seem like discussion has shifted to the BK, though. I no longer see what this has to do with Marcus. The way I see it, turns spent on resets should count towards a chapter's total once you actually beat it. If we go by that definition then reset abusing Micaiah's speed as a means to justify BK getting credit for 1-9 is fine. Why are we still talking about BK on this thread? Anyway, instead of shaving off 15 turns (or whatever improvement he makes on a solo Micaiah run) he now shaves off those turns in addition to the number or resets spent getting Micaiah speed. And if any of those resets happened on levels gained after turn 1, then all the additional turns as well. Indeed. I mean, if someone is significant enough to force reset abuse in order to proceed without them, I'd think that should be taken into account aswell. And counting the turns wasted on said abuse does so. Edited December 18, 2009 by CATS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykan12 Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 Well Narga suggested we cap someone's near infinite utility for the purpose of keeping discussions interesting. Are we going to use this logic on Marcus or not? If not, then I have no problem at all moving him back into high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CATS Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 (edited) After I responded to that proposition, Narga responded with: Oh, it would be a disgustingly high cap that isn't reached by anyone that doesn't prevent completion of the chapter if they aren't there. In other words, no, it would not be applied to meager little high tier Marcus even were we to adopt it. As long as a unit isn't more than topping the list (remember Marcus is only moving up to bottom of high, he's not going to Seth tier or anything), it's obvious that they aren't "too good" to the point of shutting down discussion. Edited December 18, 2009 by CATS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 Sooo, considering your emphasis on completing the game quickly, why is Lilina so high? You would not be taking the time to baby her for EXP on this tier list, which means she is never going to make up for being horrible. Garret is most certainly better than her with this in mind. Douglas too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 sorry i missed the part where lower mid was considered high Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Convincing argument <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 (edited) its not an argument You're acting like we consider Lilina a good unit. We don't, nobody does. Her tier position accurately reflects this, I feel. not saying she can't go lower but saying she's "so high" when she's so obviously not is a solid enough indication a lot of us don't exactly have a lot of faith in her. Edited February 2, 2010 by Fred Fuchs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 If it wasn't obvious already, "so high" was in relation to where I feel she should be. IE, out of the tier she's in now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 I think I could see Garrett and Douglas > Lilina, but just saying "they're better" is not very convincing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inui Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Garret is definitely much better than Lilina. He is even better in Sacae, where both are horrendously awful. Garret has more concrete durability than her at level 20/1 if she's fully supported and at 20/20, lmao. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 I think I could see Garrett and Douglas > Lilina, but just saying "they're better" is not very convincing. I didn't. I said that in an efficiency playthrough you will not be taking the time needed to feed Lilina kills, you will be moving as fast as you can. She'll never be able to match up to enemies well under these restrictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inui Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 (edited) What if taking the time to "baby" a unit for a bit ends up improving efficiency later? If you spend three chapters babying someone like Fir or Shin, you get a destructive rapist that makes everything else later on much easier. Such is not the case for Lilina, but it is for some units that are a bit too low on this list. Edited February 2, 2010 by Inui Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 (edited) What if taking the time to "baby" a unit for a bit ends up improving efficiency later? If you spend three chapters babying someone like Fir or Shin, you get a destructive rapist that makes everything else later on much easier. Such is not the case for Lilina, but it is for some units that are a bit too low on this list. How is that improving efficiency? By babying a unit for three chapters how much EXP is the rest of your team losing? Does it stop your other team members from getting important one rounds? Are they going to be able to make up for three chapters worth of negative utility? The characters in high and top tier never contribute negatively, the ones in upper mid will all contribute negatively at some point. Don't forget that the entire point of an efficiency playthrough is to complete it as fast as possible. If a unit outright prevents you from doing that just to be good or decent, they lose big points for it. Edited February 2, 2010 by Tangerine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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