FE6 hard mode tier list, take 2

[Inui]

I'm saying that, theoretically, if you spend 10 extra turns to baby some unit and it ends up saving you more than 10 turns later because you create a monster (like in the case I believe true for Fir and especially Shin and possibly Ray due to Nosferatu h4x), wouldn't it make it perfectly worth it to slow down a little bit so you can speed up later?

I don't see the merit in speed runs, but if you're doing a speed run...well, almost anything not promoted outside of the earlygame is pretty bad, even Gonzales, since he likes to lolmiss a LOT until he promotes and he needs the Hit from Echidna. Echidna is clearly way better than him based on these standards since she is raping RIGHT AWAY and always does.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Inui

[dondon151]

I don't see the merit in speed runs, but if you're doing a speed run...well, almost anything not promoted outside of the earlygame is pretty bad, even Gonzales, since he likes to lolmiss a LOT until he promotes and he needs the Hit from Echidna. Echidna is clearly way better than him based on these standards since she is raping RIGHT AWAY and always does.

I disagree. Even though there are a handful of units that just join with amazing bases, growth units are still an important part of FE6.

As for Gonzales vs. Echidna, Gonzales pretty much beats Echidna at everything once he promotes. That's like, chapters 11-16 where Echidna performs better, and chapters 16x-F where Gonzales performs better. I'd say the input is well worth the return.

[Inui]

Gonzales is never, ever, winning Hit and misses even after promotion while Echidna never misses. His HP win doesn't matter. It's only HP and Echidna is also nearly 100% invincible by then due to +25 Evd, +5 Def/Res, and +25 Crit Evd due to her supports. Lances and axes all pretty much have 0 Hit on her. Gonzales isn't doubling anything she isn't.

Gonzales wins Str and Crit. Those wins only matter if he hits.

Chapter 21

20/10 Gonzales w/ B Echidna/C Garret:

111 Hit w/ Iron Axe/Killer Axe

Hit vs:

Steel Lance Wyvern: 88

Silver Lance Wyvern Lord: 82

Archer: 74

Sage: 72

Bishop: 67

Murdock: 40

20/13 Echidna w/ A Lalum/B Echidna:

125 Hit w/ Iron Axe/Killer Axe

140 Hit w/ Killing Edge

Hit vs:

Steel Lance Wyvern: 100

Silver Lance Wyvern Lord: 96

Archer: 100

Sage: 100

Bishop: 98

Murdock: 84, slaughters him

Enemies Gonzales doubles that Echidna does not: 0

Both have nearly infinite durability.

Gonzales loses Hit when he chooses any other weapon. Steel? -15. Silver? -10. Hammer? -20. Halberd? -10. Gonzales misses 1/5 of the time he tries to hit something. Echidna misses almost never.

Gonzales has 48 base Crit to Echidna's 23. That is a decent win. When Gonzales doesn't lolmiss. Both need a critical to one-round Wyverns, but she has 100 Hit on them.

This is all after Gonzales's way better growths had a chance to kick in and he went through a period of massive, horrendous fail by not being able to hit anything. He has 68 Hit at 10/0 against the lowest Evd enemy in Chapter 11. He is not that good and the most overrated unit in this game. Echidna is never bad, doesn't consume a Hero Crest that Rutger, Dieck, and Lott all want, and she doesn't have Hit problems. Swords > +30 Crit. Why? She lolrapes axe users forever and gets access to bonus Hit and Killing Edges.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Inui

[Mekkah]

You're using the outdated logic that units build insane amounts of slow supports overtime. The 1-move gap between Echidna and her partners, plus the fact that Lalum is a dancer (which goes all over the place, and spends some time being rescued to prevent falling behind) makes it awkward to build a support with her. dondon's low turn run with 0% growths had that support hit C at 16x, I don't rememeber if and let alone when it was at B. Gonzales/Echidna is way too slow. 60 turns next to each other for a C, 120 for a B? Do you know how much inflexibility this causes, especially if you're also trying to put them next to other partners?

You're also neglecting the fact that Gonzales OHKOs something if he crits, so that only needs to happen once. He can crit on the first hit, or he can miss the first hit then crit on the second, or he can hit both.

20/10 Gonzales w/ Killer Axe

40.0 atk, 25.0 AS, 98.7 hit, 66.5 crit - - 63.4 avo, 59.9 hp, 15.0 def, 1.2 res, 13.4 critavo

20/13 Echidna w/ Killer Axe (C Lalum, Body Ring)

27.6 atk, 21.6 AS, 115.0 hit, 42.8 crit - - 56.6 avo, 44.0 hp, 10.8 def, 9.8 res, 13.4 critavo

Look at the offense difference. 12.4 atk is an enormous amount.

48 hp/17 def Wyvern Riders get exactly ORKO'd thanks to WTA, and Gonzales has one point left to go to his cap. Echidna, however, is doing 2x11.6 dmg. She isn't even 4HKOing: she needs a double crit to kill this thing. She can do a 4HKO with Silver, but then she only has 12.8 crit (3.8 after taking the 9 luk into account).

The hit difference? Gonzo's ~99 hit on their 33 eva - 10 for WTA = 88.72% true. He has a ~22% chance to miss at least one hit, but every time he lands one, he also has a ~57% chance to crit and OHKO.

Defensively, they're fine against Steel Lance/Javelin unpromoted things because they only have 77 hit after WTD, which is only 8% real on Echidna (and 4% on Gonzales), and usually they'll be attacked by Javelins which like 4HKO Echidna. Steel Lance ones 3HKO Echidna, so her CoD is rather low unless a lot attack her.

But for example, the Killer Lance ones, they're a huge threat. After their WTD, they have 29 atk/97 hit/37 crit. That's 18 dmg/32% real/24% crit on Echidna. Around 7.5% chance to bite the bullet every time one attacks her, since they 3HKO her. Meanwhile Gonzales just laughs them off (14 dmg/23% real/27% crit), and on the off 6% chance that they do crit him, he has 18 hp to spare, so he needs to take another two hits from a similar attack enemy to go down.

Wyvern Lords are strong too. 40 atk/100 hit, so 39/90 after their WTD. Gonzales with his 60 hp/15 def just lives through two hits, but Echidna takes 28/44 hp damage, a 2HKO even if she had an Angelic Robe. And they have 23% hit on her (~15% on Gonzales). 5% CoD after two attacks. I don't even want to talk about how long it takes for Echidna to take down these things with their 57 hp/18 def (post-WTD). Around 18 dmg per round with Killer Axe. Oops, I just did. She could use Silver, but then she might run into doubling issues, especially with no Body Ring.

"but that's lategame only echidna rapes him earlier"

Gonzales' major benefits are from his promo bonuses - he cap rams HP and Str pretty quickly, and his Atk is often overkill. Meanwhile, moving back in time removes Echidna's Lalum support, and perhaps her Body Ring.

[Inui]

Still not used to this speed-run style used here. I wish Reikken was here, since he's like...the master of Echidna. He should post. I don't care enough to debate that much when it's about a speed-run.

But, I will take note of one thing. The huge period of suck he goes through when he joins was not addressed. He has 68 Hit at 10/0 against the lowest Evd enemies there. Everything else, he's doing worse. Echidna never sucks like that.

[Mekkah]

It's not speed-run style. It's called efficiency. Shaving off turns = good. Having to stand next to someone for 120 guys limits flexibility.

His period of "suck" is more like a Mid tier unit. He's already borderline doubling when he joins, so he'll usually 2RKO things, occasionally ORKO, and with a Hero Crest that shifts even more towards ORKO.

It's funny that you mention Reikken, because he's also showed how much better Gonzo is compared to, say, Lot at this point.

[dondon151]

68 disp hit is unreliable, but it's nowhere near bad.

I'd argue that Echidna benefits significantly more from a Speedwings than a Body Ring, but they make the same difference with respect to the Killer Axe.

[Inui]

Mekkah, how is 68 Hit on the absolute slowest unit on the map anything but horrible? It's only less and less after you count other enemies.

Also, Gonzales not even having a C with Echidna by Chapter 21 is lulzworthy. I understand you guys are trying to finishing the game speed-run style (don't say you're not, it's clear you are) but they can easily manage a C by the time the biggest chapter in the game happens.

Echidna should also have a B with Lalum even given your standards. It builds quickly.

She may be all over the place sometimes, but not all the time. It's not that good of an idea to spread out, especially in this game.

Especially Chapter 21. Echidna, Lalum, Garret, and Gonzales can move straight down the left part of the map to eat up the huuuuuge army of wyverns and horsies and give each other support bonuses while doing it. Creating invincible units is always awesome, and the supports do so. Not creating invincible units slows you down, so it's contradictory to want to speed-run this shit and then not making invincible units to shave off turns later.

[Mekkah]

Mekkah, how is 68 Hit on the absolute slowest unit on the map anything but horrible? It's only less and less after you count other enemies.

I never said it wasn't. I said there's other factors to Gonzales that make up for it to at least make him "mediocre" rather than bad. Hit isn't the only stat.

Also, Gonzales not even having a C with Echidna by Chapter 21 is lulzworthy. I understand you guys are trying to finishing the game speed-run style (don't say you're not, it's clear you are) but they can easily manage a C by the time the biggest chapter in the game happens.

Why bother deliberately putting Gonzales next to Echidna for 60 turns just for such tiny bonuses? Gonzales definitely doesn't care about better defenses enough to limit his flexibility to staying next to Echidna.

Echidna should also have a B with Lalum even given your standards. It builds quickly.

You are not using numbers. This is a huge problem when debating you: you use terms such as "a lot", "much more" and "not so much" without actually showing that what you say is true with numerical proof.

It's a 20+2 support, so 20 to a C ain't bad, but then 30 more to a B can have issues already. You seem not to understand how annoying it is to support a 6 mov fighting unit with a 5 mov unit.

First off, the Echidna/Lalum siamese twin has to stay clear of any ranged enemies on enemy phase if you want to counter them, because they'll prioritize attacking Lalum, which not only puts her at risk of dying, but it also slows you down if I could have countered them with a mage/archer/Javelin/Hand Axe.

Next problem: Lalum often requires ferrying to keep up, especially once people start promoting and everyone but Roy has 6+ mov while she is stuck with 5, plus she can't dance to herself, so naturally the army will advance faster. Echidna can't build with Lalum unless she holds her.

We also have to spend more units/time boxing her in when she's close to the front lines (which is where you'll want Echidna to be) to avoid her from getting attacked. This is particularly problematic in a chapter like Ch21 where all the enemies fly and have 7-8 movement, or in a chapter like Ch13 where most enemies have high movement.

Also, consider that Echidna isn't really helping Lalum at all with her supports, since Lalum should never be in any battle situation other than LRTs and ballistae, which are rare.

She may be all over the place sometimes, but not all the time. It's not that good of an idea to spread out, especially in this game.

20 and 50 turns are a lot. With "all over the place", I mean that Lalum often runs back and forth. Turn 1 she goes 5 ahead to make Percival move 5+8, then next turn she dances for someone else while moving like 4, then next turn she'll help Roy and his 5 mov catch up to the Cavs so she might have to move back, etc.

Especially Chapter 21. Echidna, Lalum, Garret, and Gonzales can move straight down the left part of the map to eat up the huuuuuge army of wyverns and horsies and give each other support bonuses while doing it.

That's pointless. It's much more efficient to go to the right and avoid the south. Less enemies in your way to the end, easier to avoid casualties, etc.

Creating invincible units is always awesome, and the supports do so. Not creating invincible units slows you down, so it's contradictory to want to speed-run this shit and then not making invincible units to shave off turns later.

There's so much wrong with this I don't even know where to begin.

- Fighting a bunch of dudes and maybe gaining one more level of supports does not make you invincible unless you were close already.

- Stop saying we are speed running. We strive for (close to) lowest possible turn counts since it's an objective medium for determining unit value, and we strive for unit flexibility on each of those turns, which supports can conflict with.

- It's too late to get returns for raising a unit. It's Ch21. There's three chapters left worth raising for, and the enemy density after Ch21 isn't even very high. Ch24 doesn't require invincibility, your worth is determined by how quickly you dispose of Mamkutes vs how quickly they dispose of you, and there's very little variety on that since all you need to ORKO is an S-weapon and higher Spd than someone like Barth, and very few people survive more than 1-2 hits.

Also, dondon:

I'd argue that Echidna benefits significantly more from a Speedwings than a Body Ring, but they make the same difference with respect to the Killer Axe.

Yeah, the reason I gave her the Body Ring is that literally everyone gets more out of Speedwings than Body Ring except maybe speed demons like Rutger and Fir after they cap Speed. So the opportunity cost would be fairly low. Meanwhile, Speedwings' next best alternative is pretty close to what Echidna would get out of it, if not better. Alan, Dieck, Lot, etc...

Edited February 2, 2010 by Mekkah

[Colonel M]

Fun fact: Echinda route Gonzales has a chance to double Nomads if he hits @ 20/5, nevermind 14 Def (13.55) @ 20/1. I don't think he's worried about that Echinda support that much.

Granted everyone knows this, but Echinda stands little chance of doing this. Echinda needs to be ~20/13 to have a chance of 22 Spd on the average, not to mention her 9 Con means she can't double with a Hand Axe so she loses out on the Enemy Phase (Gonzo should be able to hit at least once on the Enemy Phase w/Hand Axe if he doubles even if he dips under 50% accuracy).

Either way, it was proved Gonzo > Echinda as I will show in here:

Echidman vs Speedy Gonzales

This game has a weird tendency of throwing hilariously under-levelled units with HM bonuses at you (Rutger, Fir, and Miledy come to mind). Gonzales is no exception.

In fact, wow. 12-13 exp/hit and 49-50 exp/kill is like he took one of your average levelled units and tossed paragon onto them. Still, Gonzales can join at best on turn 6, so I wouldn’t expect more than 2 levels.

Gonzales lv 7/0: 44 hp, 7 def, 1 res

Iron axe: 25 atk, 82.5 hit, 12 AS, 31 avo

Echidna lv --/1: 35 hp, 8 def, 7 res

Steel sword: 21 atk, 111 hit, 17 AS, 40 avo

Steel axe: 24 atk, 91 hit, 12 AS, 30 avo

On a side note, 0_0 x 30 at Gonzales’ hp. This is the first character I’ve ever seen that caps hp at 20/1. He also has C15 Percival’s base str at lv 12/0. His accuracy must really destroy him if he’s not at the top of high.

Anyway, Echidna definitely wins offence. >= AS to him and higher hit definitely wins over slightly less atk. Durability-wise, Echidna probably wins again. 9 hp vs 1 def/6 res/0-9 avo/better WTC control.

Can Echidna keep up with Gonzales’ insane levelling rate though?

The C11 enemies are lv 14-16 instead of lv 11-14, which means 7/0 Gonzo is gaining EVEN MORE than 50 exp/kill. He won’t really slow down either; once he matches their levels, he’ll still be gaining 30/kill. Echidna, on the other hand, is gaining 8 exp/hit (same for kill). You could give Gonzales something like 8 levels to her 1.

Gonzales lv 15/0: 52 hp, 9 def, 1 res, 8.5 cev

Killer axe: 31 atk, 88 hit, 34.5 crit, 16 AS, 42 avo

Gonzales lv 15/1: 56 hp, 12 def, 1 res, 8.5 cev

Killer axe: 33 atk, 98 hit, 67 crit, 18 AS, 46 avo

Echidna lv --/2: 36 hp, 8 def, 7 res, 6 cev

Killing edge: 22 atk, 121 hit, 40 crit, 18 AS, 40 avo

Killer axe: 24 atk, 106 hit, 40 crit, 16 AS, 36 avo

This is a good time to talk about Gonzales’ early promotion. The most ideal time is around lv 12-15 since he has everything he wants (hp/str/spd) except what he can’t have (lousy growths in skl/def/res), the latter of which is fulfilled through a promotion (+5 skl wtf), and of course 32.5 crit. I can’t see the opportunity cost even being that high. He may withhold Dieck from getting a little AS and axes, but axes just trade lots of hit for some atk, so it’s quite easily less beneficial than gaining 10 hit AND 30 crit.

So, assuming Gonzales gets his promotion, he beats Echidna around the board pretty badly. 9+ atk means 18 more damage per double, and a hilarious amount more when crits are involved. They have about the same AS but then Gonzales has the con to wield axes while Echidna doesn’t. And obviously 27 crit is another monstrous lead. Defensively, the hp difference has grown to 20, and now Gonzo is winning avo and def by a decent margin. That >>> res.

Everything boils down to hitrate, but I think it’s easy to show ALL of Gonzales’ leads overwhelm that single advantage.

For example, check out this 17I cav:

Cav lv 15 (steel lance, javelin): 39 hp, 24 atk, 84 hit, 23 avo, 8 AS, 10 def, 4 res, 7 cev

Offensively, Gonzales 2HKOes while Echidna 3HKOes. The odds of Echidna landing all 3 hits is about 84%, whereas Gonzales landing 2 out of 3 hits is 95.86%. In addition, Echidna’s chance to crit at least once in 3 hits is ~70%. Gonzales’ chance to crit at least once in 2 hits is 84%.

Defensively, Gonzo is 5RKOed at 16 true hit while Echidna is 3RKOed at 29 true hit. CoD for Gonzales in 5 attacks is 0.01% while it’s 15% for Echidna. That’s a factor difference of about 1500.

Things only get better for Gonzales in the future. Both characters have roughly the same level now, but he curbstomps her in the growth department. 15 hp/30 str/-10 skl/20 spd/15 luck/10 def/-10 res advantages ftw. Supports help Gonzales more as well; if Lilina’s in play, he gets more hit, and Gonzo and Echidna happen to support each other, which gives him even more hit. Granted, Echidna can get hit from her own supports, but she never had a problem there to begin with. She also has a quick support with Lalum, but I’m iffy on dancers supporting fighters (I can dig up a post on why if you want). The rest of both characters’ support lists are 1+1, so I don’t think that’ll ever matter.

I have to say, I don’t just think Gonzales > Echidna, but that they could even have a tier separation, or at least be at polar opposites of the same tier. That’s reasonably possible considering there’s a bunch of utility units in high (thieves, dancers, healers) that can be shuffled around.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

Clarine>Gonzales seems kind of...iffy. Other people have an opinion on either way?

Edited February 10, 2010 by Fred Fuchs

[Mekkah]

[15:44:55] <@Lolipop> back to fe6 for a minute
[15:45:03] <@Lolipop> clarine>gonzales
[15:45:06] <@Lolipop> dont quite get that one
[15:46:28] <~Mekkah> healing vs combat
[15:46:31] <~Mekkah> need more?
[15:47:55] <@Lolipop> didnt you say that you cant hand-wave a massive gap in performance with lolstaves
[15:47:58] <@Lolipop> ie moulder vs forde
[15:48:09] <@Lolipop> well i think it goes without saying that gonzales shitstomps clarine in offense
[15:52:45] <~Mekkah> [15:47:55] <@Lolipop> didnt you say that you cant hand-wave a massive gap in performance with lolstaves
[15:53:00] <~Mekkah> no, but i didnt say that you could handwave all healer vs combat unit things
[15:53:07] <~Mekkah> in gonzo vs clarine, clarine is actually the one with the mount utility
[15:53:17] <@Lolipop> the mount actually hurts though
[15:53:24] <@Lolipop> because gonzales promoted has equal move
[15:53:27] <@Lolipop> and less terrain problems
[15:53:28] <~Mekkah> no
[15:53:31] <~Mekkah> that's fe8
[15:53:38] <~Mekkah> fe6 has classic 7 mov troubs -> 8 mov valks
[15:53:44] <~Mekkah> gonzo has 5 -> 6
[15:54:06] <@Lolipop> ...my bad
[15:54:24] <~Mekkah> clarine also has a pretty large availability lead
[15:54:43] <@Lolipop> still the offense lead is huge and i think gonz wins durability too although it depends which point in the game youre talking about
[15:55:02] <@Lolipop> If it's a lance flood WTA pads his massive hp and avg def with some degree of semi-reliable avoid, too
[15:55:26] <~Mekkah> obviously gonzo's martial arts are superior (other than the whole missing is horrible thing)
[15:55:40] <~Mekkah> which is why it isnt a blow out in clarine's favor
[15:55:47] <~Mekkah> it's al ot of combat things vs a lot of non combat things
[15:56:06] <@Lolipop> well again it depends at which point in the game you're talking about. If it's at a point where he's promoted and there's a lot of lances he shouldn't have too many accuracy issues
[15:57:48] <~Mekkah> i dont think it can be questioned that clarine wins ch4-ch10
[15:57:57] <~Mekkah> and probably at least until gonzo's promo
[15:58:18] <~Mekkah> after that, it becomes more arguable
[15:58:45] <~Mekkah> if gonzo's promo is procastinated until 16 secret shop, he loses quite considerably
[15:59:45] <@Lolipop> 3 crests until c16...well i guess two really
[15:59:56] <@Lolipop> Dieck
[15:59:58] <@Lolipop> Rutger
[15:59:59] <@Lolipop> Ward
[16:00:00] <@Lolipop> Lot
[16:00:10] <@Lolipop> OJ
[16:00:11] <@Lolipop> Fir
[16:00:12] <@Lolipop> Geese
[16:00:14] <@Lolipop> Gonzales
[16:00:24] <@Lolipop> obviously at least two others besides him are going to be around
[16:00:58] <~Mekkah> dieck and rutger's names might as well be burned into the line-up list
[16:01:20] <~Mekkah> and only one of the others is a fair assumption
[16:01:31] <~Mekkah> so the opp cost for gonzo taking one is something like rutger waiting for 30% crt
[16:01:36] <~Mekkah> or dieck getting axes
[16:02:07] <~Mekkah> of course clarine has the same issue
[16:02:23] <@Lolipop> Well Clarine's bugged by it less
[16:02:32] <~Mekkah> yeah she remains a mounted healplox no matter what
[16:02:41] <@Lolipop> it's look I can has shit offense now and will still be a staffwhore half the time anyway
[16:03:11] <~Mekkah> i think she can still manage 2RKOs at least
[16:03:19] <@Lolipop> i dont think promoting her late is going to affect her significantly, probably missing out on Aircaliburing wyverns but thats two chatpers of real usefulness anyway so big shoopdawoop
[16:03:40] <@Lolipop> So im fine with her>Gonzales I guess 

[grandjackal]

Sounds reasonable to me. I agree, Clarine>Gonzales.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm wondering why Shin is below Thany, especially on Sacae.

Shin doubles reliably, even at base, has high move, can avoid counters etc. Thany flies I guess, but is a pretty poor combat unit in comparison. I'm not sure whether 10/0 Thany by Isles is fair or not, but she struggles a lot during earlygame. Archers OHKO her and nearly everything else 2HKOs her. She's struggling to 2RKO herself, getting weighed down 4 by a freaking Iron Lance.

Base Shin (5/0)(Short Bow)

29 HP 14 Atk 14 AS 8 Def 1 Res 112 Hit 36 Avo

10/0 Thany(Slim Lance)

21 HP 11 Atk 17 AS 7 Def 7 Res 112 Hit 44 Avo

Shin wins durability by quite a bit, 8HP/1 DEF/ no counters. 3 Atk is also pretty significant. Thany doubles more I guess, but 14 AS by the Western Isles doubles quite a bit anyway. Shin also is a lower level, so he'll level up significantly faster.

Growth wise, Shin wins HP by 30 and Str by 15. He loses Skl/Lck/Res/Spd by small margins. Neither Thany or Shin have big doubling problems (unless Thany tries to use heavier weapons) and the other stats aren't too important anyway, so he'll grow better.

20/1 Shin (Silver Bow)

45 HP 25 Atk 22 AS 11 Def 6 Res

20/1 Thany (Iron/Silver Lance)

32 HP 19/26 Atk 19/17 AS 7 Def 12 Res

Thany has better Res, loses everything else basically. She can actually have more Atk, but will move herself out of doubling rage in the process msot of the time, so not recommended.

I didn't include supports. Thany has better partners I'll admit, but if she's using her flying utility I question how much time she'll spend adjacent to them.

Thany's flying utility is handy, but Thany doesn't really have the durability to go off on her own. She could take the Delphi Shield so that ballistae/archers aren't almost OHKOing her, but Miledy is a better unit who will also want the Shield.

Overall I'm not seeing Thany>Shin unless her earlygame flying utility is just insane. A note on Sacae, Shin can counter the nomads and actually ORKO them with a Silver Bow. Thany will probably miss with a Javelin, be weighed down and not double and gets 2HKOd. It's a pretty big difference.

20/1 Thany (Silver Lance)

[Tangerine]

I think that assuming Shin is catching up to her is suspect. The only time he will ever get significant EXP is on the player phase, whereas Thany can counter. Archers and Nomads level up much slower than other units because of this. Not to mention countering the nomads in Sacae is not exactly that big of a deal unless your entire team has 1-2 range. They will always attack someone who can't counter them, even if they'll do less damage.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Tangerine

[dondon151]

I didn't include supports. Thany has better partners I'll admit, but if she's using her flying utility I question how much time she'll spend adjacent to them.

If she's rescuing her support partner, they gain support points. I abuse this mechanic in chapter 8, when Dieck/Lot have trouble keeping up and require a mounted unit to bring them to the front lines.

Thany's flying utility is handy, but Thany doesn't really have the durability to go off on her own. She could take the Delphi Shield so that ballistae/archers aren't almost OHKOing her, but Miledy is a better unit who will also want the Shield.

You don't need to be durable to use flying utility. I've used base Thany in chapter 21 for flying utility alone and it probably saved me 2-3 turns on final completion. If you need her to fight, then it's a different story (just use Miledy instead...), but there are so many ways to abuse flying utility, and only a small portion of them entail combat.

Overall I'm not seeing Thany>Shin unless her earlygame flying utility is just insane. A note on Sacae, Shin can counter the nomads and actually ORKO them with a Silver Bow. Thany will probably miss with a Javelin, be weighed down and not double and gets 2HKOd. It's a pretty big difference.

You can use her in every earlygame chapter prior to when Shin joins for quite a bit of utility. You do have a fair point about Shin countering nomads, however, as my personal experience suggests that having a good bow user makes Sacae much easier. I wouldn't say that that beats flier utility from chapters 2 through 9 and onwards, however.

[Dat Nick]

Oh boy, here we go again...

[-Cynthia-]

Thany has an enemy phase, but not much of one considering she's getting 2RKOd a lot of the time. Shin deals more damage as well, so I think he should catch up to her fairly quickly. Maybe he'll just trim the gap to a one or two level lead, but a few more lvels for Thany doesn't make a huge difference. I didn't do a lategame comparison, but remember that Shin's Str and HP leads just get bigger, and Thany's Con problem never goes away.

We can position Shin to counter Nomads though(send him off alone or something) and he can wipe out an entire group of them, which really no one else in the game can claim. It's a pretty big contrast to Thany doing almost no damage and getting killed.

I guess Thany's flying utility is useful and all, but if she can't cut it as a combat unit, I really don't think she should be so high.

Edited February 10, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

By the way, Klein and Igrene at least should still go up on the Sacae tier list...

I guess Thany's flying utility is useful and all, but if she can't cut it as a combat unit, I really don't think she should be so high.

Thieves and healers don't cut it as combat units either. Does this mean that they shouldn't be as high as they are?

Edited February 10, 2010 by dondon151

[-Cynthia-]

I actually think the issue is with Shin being underrated more than anything else, I think he should be in High with the other combat units.

I'll compare him to Echidna I guess. Shin should be promoted pretty shortly after Echidna joins, she wins before that obviously, though he has some chapters before she joins where he's pretty decent.

20/1 Shin (Killer Bow)

45 HP 27 Atk 22 AS 11 Def 6 Res 122 Hit 56 Avo 40 Crit

20/4 Echidna(Killer Axe)

37 HP 25 Atk 17 AS 8 Def 7 Res 115 Hit 41 Avo 40 Crit

Shin's winning like every combat parameter here. Shin also doesn't take counters, has more Mov, and has less issues with Crits.

Now I still might go with Echidna, because she can have an Enemy Phase with something other than an Iron Sword, but I don't really think a tier gap is necessarily justified here, I could see Shin in between Echidna and Lalum.

Edited February 10, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Tangerine]

I actually think the issue is with Shin being underrated more than anything else, I think he should be in High with the other combat units.

I'll compare him to Echidna I guess. Shin should be promoted pretty shortly after Echidna joins, she wins before that obviously, though he some chapters before she joins where he's pretty decent.

20/1 Shin (Killer Bow)

45 HP 27 Atk 22 AS 11 Def 6 Res 122 Hit 56 Avo 40 Crit

20/4 Echidna(Killer Axe)

37 HP 25 Atk 17 AS 8 Def 7 Res 115 Hit 41 Avo 40 Crit

Shin's winning like every combat parameter here. Shin also doesn't take counters, has more Mov, and has less issues with Crits.

Now I still might go with Echidna, because she can have an Enemy Phase with something other than an Iron Sword, but I don't really think a tier gap is necessarily justified here, I could see Shin in between Echidna and Lalum.

I'm still not seeing Shin promoting so early. He has no enemy phase and can't one round anything but Pegs when he joins (which are not common at all by this point). On an efficiency tier list this will just not happen. Shin joins at level 5 in chapter 9, Echidna joins in chapter 11. You put her at level 4, so I'm going to assume you're talking chapter 15. That means Shin is getting 15 levels in 6 chapters when he gets absolutely no EXP outside of the player phase.

Shin should never be in the same tier as a unit like Echidna or Gonzales. He's lucky to be in upper-mid considering he's stuck to 2 range for a very long time.

[-Cynthia-]

Shin also has pretty significant crit with a Short Bow (20 or so), and consideirng he doubles this will lead to a fair amount of ORKOS. Also, since this isn't FE8 or something not everyone is ORKOing, and thus they can weaken enemies for Shin. It really doesn't take Shin all that long to promote though, he gains like over half a level per kill and a third per hit or something. 5/0 by Wetsern Isles is a very low base level. Promoting Shin by the time we get our first Orion's Bolt is far from unreasonable.

If 20/1 Shin and 20/4 Echidna seems unfair to you, I guess I can go for 15/1 Shin instead. Remember that Shin has no competition for the Orion's Bolt (lol Sue lol Dorothy lol Wolt), so he can promote anytime he wants after 11?A

15/1 Shin (Killer Bow)

42 HP 25 Atk 21 AS 11 Def 6 Res 116 Hit 53 Avo 37 Crit

20/4 Echidna(Killer Axe)

37 HP 25 Atk 17 AS 8 Def 7 Res 115 Hit 41 Avo 40 Crit

The only thing Shin really lost was his Atk lead, which he'll make up over time with a 15% higher Str growth. Shin also has 25% more Skl, 20% more Spd, and a higher leveling rate. Shin has 5% more Lck, Echidna has 5% more Def, so it's pretty obvious Shin will be increasing his leads over time. He also gains better enemy phase offense as his sword ranks increase.

Edited February 10, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Tangerine]

Shin also has pretty significant crit with a Short Bow (20 or so), and consideirng he doubles this will lead to a fair amount of ORKOS. Also, since this isn't FE8 or something not everyone is ORKOing, and thus they can weaken enemies for Shin. It really doesn't take Shin all that long to promote though, he gains like over half a level per kill and a third per hit or something. 5/0 by Wetsern Isles is a very low base level. Promoting Shin by the time we get our first Orion's Bolt is far from unreasonable.

Why should they weaken units for Shin? Why doesn't Shin weaken units for them? That results in less damage done to your team. Never understood this argument at all.

If 20/1 Shin and 20/4 Echidna seems unfair to you, I guess I can go for 15/1 Shin instead. Remember that Shin has no competition for the Orion's Bolt (lol Sue lol Dorothy lol Wolt), so he can promote anytime he wants after 11?A

15/1 at chapter 16 seems more fair, sure.

The only thing Shin really lost was his Atk lead, which he'll make up over time with a 15% higher Str growth. Shin also has 25% more Skl, 20% more Spd, and a higher leveling rate. Shin has 5% more Lck, Echidna has 5% more Def, so it's pretty obvious Shin will be increasing his leads over time. He also gains better enemy phase offense as his sword ranks increase.

Shin has a trash phase still. Echidna's offense dwarfs his because of this. Not to mention Shin isn't leveling his sword rank with a Killer Bow on, so lets look at this:

15/1 Shin (Iron Sword)

42 HP, 21 Atk, 21 AS, 11 Def, 6 Res, 121 Hit, 53 Avo, 7 Crit

20/4 Echidna(Killer Axe)

37 HP, 25 Atk, 17 AS, 8 Def, 7 Res, 115 Hit, 41 Avo, 40 Crit

Worse weapon type and much worse offense.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Tangerine

[-Cynthia-]

Why should they weaken units for Shin? Why doesn't Shin weaken units for them? That results in less damage done to your team. Never understood this argument at all.

It can go both ways. The point is that Shin levels pretty quickly.

15/1 at chapter 16 seems more fair, sure.

Actually that seems to be on the low side. I got Shin to 18/1 in 11A, and it's not like I spent entire maps feeding kills to him or anything. When enemy levels are higher than yours, EXP gain is ridiculous.

Shin has a trash phase still. Echidna's offense dwarfs his because of this. Not to mention Shin isn't leveling his sword rank with a Killer Bow on, so lets look at this:

15/1 Shin (Iron Sword)

42 HP, 21 Atk, 21 AS, 11 Def, 6 Res, 121 Hit, 53 Avo, 7 Crit

20/4 Echidna(Killer Axe)

37 HP, 25 Atk, 17 AS, 8 Def, 7 Res, 115 Hit, 41 Avo, 40 Crit

Worse weapon type and much worse offense.

So Shin still doubles more and only deals 3 less damage per double, which is worse, but not that much. Shin has 2 more Mov and can switch to another weapon type if he wants for no counters and more offense. Also, Shin catches up in enemy phase offense eventually.

20/7 Shin (Steel Sword)

50 HP 29 Atk 23 AS 12 Def 7 Res

20/10 Echidna (Killer Axe)

42 HP 25 Atk 19 AS 9 Def 8 Res

Shin has more Atk, more Hit and doubles more, Echidna still has Crit though, at least until Shin reaches C swords. Shin gains weapon ranks pretty quickly too, due to doubling, and even Iron Sword!Shin can ORKO Mages and stuff.

So Mov, durability, able to avoid counters (and counter nomads and such) and deal effective damage to wyverns, more AS/Atk as opposed to Echidna's better enemy phase for a while and WTC. Still not seeing a tier gap. Again I'm not necessarily saying Shin>Echidna, but with only utility untis seperating them it's the only comparison I can really make.

Edited February 11, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Tangerine]

It can go both ways. The point is that Shin levels pretty quickly.

Shin levels quickly if you go out of your way to feed him EXP. Shin does not level quickly when you don't apply favoritism because he is not a good combat unit on his own. Another unit could just as easily get those kills you're feeding him without needing them fed to them.

Actually that seems to be on the low side. I got Shin to 18/1 in 11A, and it's not like I spent entire maps feeding kills to him or anything. When enemy levels are higher than yours, EXP gain is ridiculous.

Nice, you babied Shin 13 levels in two chapters. Now where is the argument to move him up?

Shin has more Atk, more Hit and doubles more, Echidna still has Crit though, at least until Shin reaches C swords. Shin gains weapon ranks pretty quickly too, due to doubling, and even Iron Sword!Shin can ORKO Mages and stuff.

What does he double that she can't? 15/7 Shin has one more AS than Echidna with Killer Axe. Also, note that to have a D in Swords Shin has been much worse than Echidna in combat all the way up to this point from when she joined and now you're near the end of the game. Not to mention Shin is losing defense badly in the chapters with lots of Wyverns.

Shin wins in like 2 chapters that have lots of unpromoted Nomads for him to fight, Echidna wins everywhere else. Even then he only wins because the Nomads have enough avo to make Echidna w/ Hand Axe miss often enough to count.

So Mov, durability, able to avoid counters (and counter nomads and such) and deal effective damage to wyverns, more AS/Atk as opposed to Echidna's better enemy phase for a while and WTC. Still not seeing a tier gap. Again I'm not necessarily saying Shin>Echidna, but with only utility untis seperating them it's the only comparison I can really make.

He doesn't win durability in chapters with lots of Lance users. Also, Echidna can avoid counters with the Hand Axe and still attack at 1 range to boot, so I dunno how this is an advantage. Dealing damage to 1 enemy per turn is also not much of an advantage when compared to a unit able to take out multiple on the same turn. In order to use Shin's bow and then switch back to the sword you need to waste another unit's turn. More often than not, Shin is either having an equal player phase and no enemy phase or a worse player phase and much worse enemy phase.

Also, your stats are off. Echidna has 27 atk with a Killer Axe and 31 atk with a Silver Axe at ?/10. Silver Axe leaves her with 18 AS, which I'm sure nobody will bother to argue is not enough to double most everything outside of the enemies nearly nobody doubles. You also listed 20/7 Shin instead of 15/7 Shin, which looks more like this:

15/7 Shin w/ Steel Sword: 41 HP, 24 atk, 20 AS, 11 def, 5.5 res

?/10 Echidna w/ Silver Axe: 42 HP, 31 atk, 18 AS, 9 def, 8 res

Yeah. She demolishes him on the enemy phase. Shin might be able to move up in upper-mid on the Sacae list, but a tier difference is definitely warranted considering his negative contribution unpromoted, where Echidna is positive as soon as she joins.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Tangerine