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Colonel M
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His damage is alright...problem is when he's wielding a steel lance he will have even crappier Hit, you might as well give him a Secret Book or a Speedwings.

Why would I give a unit that will never double in his entire career (except maybe other Armor Knights) a Speedwing instead of someone like, say, Allan who has almost twice the mobility, WTC, and decent durability as is with his supports?

So now Barth wants:

- A Knight Crest

- A Secret Book

- Maybe a Speedwing

The second is even absurd a bit because that can give Gonzales +4 Hit, which he'd love to have with his Axes not in the best of shape for hitting. Not to mention the first one can shaft an early promo Paladin in the Western Isles / Bridge chapter.

EDIT: While I do concede that Sue has a crappier earlygame, her midgame is not so bad with an early promotion. She needs some assistance, yes, but Barth is just only avoiding the inevitable.

Edited by Colonel M
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EDIT: While I do concede that Sue has a crappier earlygame, her midgame is not so bad with an early promotion. She needs some assistance, yes, but Barth is just only avoiding the inevitable.

First off, giving Barth a wing doesn't even do much for him in chapter 9, much less the middle of the isles where you actually GET the wing, I never claimed he were to get one.

Secondly, at least Barth CAN avoid a period of suck entirely with a bit of opportunity cost (and upon his arrival, not being much worse than Douglas, but then again Douglas didn't have isles utility where Barth could not only tank, but he had equal move to most other foot soldiers so he could actually do his job properly), Sue has to deal with it.

Basically this. Barth promotes almost instantly and becomes great on the isles while benched later or at least stays as he's just as usable as Douglas even considering. Sue sucks for quite a few of the harder chapters, and promotes midgame to be ok. I'd take the experience wasted on Sue over the knight's crest any day, since early promo would fuck up the cav duo's lategame (where Barth normally wasn't ever gonna see lategame anyways).

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First off, giving Barth a wing doesn't even do much for him in chapter 9, much less the middle of the isles where you actually GET the wing, I never claimed he were to get one.

I wasn't addressing this at you.

Secondly, at least Barth CAN avoid a period of suck entirely with a bit of opportunity cost (and upon his arrival, not being much worse than Douglas, but then again Douglas didn't have isles utility where Barth could not only tank, but he had equal move to most other foot soldiers so he could actually do his job properly), Sue has to deal with it.

Basically this. Barth promotes almost instantly and becomes great on the isles while benched later or at least stays as he's just as usable as Douglas even considering. Sue sucks for quite a few of the harder chapters, and promotes midgame to be ok. I'd take the experience wasted on Sue over the knight's crest any day, since early promo would fuck up the cav duo's lategame (where Barth normally wasn't ever gonna see lategame anyways).

So you're conceding it, but you're saying there is a possible no tier difference? Not quite understanding at what you mean.

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So you're conceding it, but you're saying there is a possible no tier difference? Not quite understanding at what you mean.

I'm saying in comparison, the exp spent on Sue just to promote her to be ok is a far bigger waste than Barth getting the knight's crest (since it makes him a bit more than just ok on the isles).

I'm saying their should be a tier difference.

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The second is even absurd a bit because that can give Gonzales +4 Hit, which he'd love to have with his Axes not in the best of shape for hitting. Not to mention the first one can shaft an early promo Paladin in the Western Isles / Bridge chapter.

I thought so...it actually benefits Gonzales very well...but he is the one that will have WTA against most enemies while Barth won't have an advantage over his enemies...Gonzales also gains an aweseome +5 Skill upon promotion, there are also two Scret Books in the game...you might as well give the first one to Barth since Gonzales at least has supports and some WTA to rely on...

There are four Speedwings in the game, you could defeneatly give two to Barth so he will defeneatly be good and double some stuff that aren't knights and soldiers (Yes, with their steel lances some of their AS gets down to 0).

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Look, sir, defense itself has no intrinsic value. When Barth can't move quick enough to get enemy exposure; when he has poor hit, AS, and rather middling str (thereby resulting in poor offense); when he has so much con that the only person that can rescue him is unpromoted Shin; when his promotion item is highly sought after by 2 of the most excellent units in the game - these all diminish the value of Barth's 29 HP/18 def.

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Barth using a Knight Crest at all and shafting all of the awesome Knight Crest units = instant failure. Douglas doesn't ever deposit Suck into the bank of your team's performance if you simply use him as an invincible shield in Sacae or Ilia (especially Sacae). He exists for a few chapters with 20-21 Def, consumed no resources to do it, and can just disapoof when he sucks.

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Look, sir, defense itself has no intrinsic value. When Barth can't move quick enough to get enemy exposure;

5 move is every other foot unit because they're unpromoted (aside from MAYBE 1 dude if you chose to promote them early with the hero crest). I find it hard to find the notion reasonable until at least beyond chapter 16 when mostly everyone else promotes. Past that then yeah, I could see the point. There's a reason this man is not in upper mid, and is bordering Low.

when he has poor hit,

Suppose we should penalize Lott then?

Though I do wish Lillina or OJ sucked less...

AS,

Considering he can still outdo Sue in one shot where Sue would need two, you'll have to do better than that.

Speaking of Sue, enemy phase. She doesn't have one. Even after promotion, you think those iron swords will rack up the kills with her toothpick Str even though she's doubling?

and rather middling str (thereby resulting in poor offense);

Promoted Barth has 13.6 Str, 10/0 Ward has 12 barring supports (since neither double, 4 more damage with A B Lott Thany is not exactly a biggie). Ward might have 4 more HP, but he also loses defense by a grand total of 13 points. Barth has Lances to counter swordies, of which Ward is their punching bag.

I believe it was you who hyped up Ward, no?

when he has so much con that the only person that can rescue him is unpromoted

Shin;

That is indeed his biggest problem.

when his promotion item is highly sought after by 2 of the most excellent units

in the game

Who would prefer to wait so their lategame doesn't get destroyed, considering the next one you get is basically right before the start of chapter 16 it's at best 1 of them. I doubt that one of them will care.

- these all diminish the value of Barth's 29 HP/18 def.

It's 30 HP good sir, and I find your sandbagging of Barth quite unreasonable.

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For Barth to take the Knight Crest there is a heavy opportunity cost of not having the chance of early sealing a Cavalier and making him useful. Even if Barth could take it safely in Chapter 9 without competition, again, you also have to factor how it isn't helping you later in the game. Sure it helps you while you're in the Western Isles, but Barth certainly doesn't help much in the lategame. Since he's doubled by just about every Wyvern Lord, it nearly kills him or makes his durability pointless. Not to mention any semblance of a Magic user is automatically a threat to Barth since he takes double the damage. Allan and Lance could take it after Chapter 11, or Chapter 12, or even Chapter 13. This also means I have to buy yet another Knight Crest assuming we're using both Allan and Lance then tossing the first Knight Crest on Barth.

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Guh...Sirius talked me out of it before I went and made a fool of myself (best I could think of is being a useful support for OJ and Lillina and pulling the cavs away from the main path to the throne in chapter 21 to make it a bit more clear than it normally would be, needless to say I can't back either of those ideas up well).

Perhaps both could meet in Low. Barth might be too costly just for Isles+Sacae use and Sue's offense might always be meh, but I'm pretty sure both aren't Hue pulling 10K out of your pocket bad.

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Look, sir, defense itself has no intrinsic value. When Barth can't move quick enough to get enemy exposure; when he has poor hit, AS, and rather middling str (thereby resulting in poor offense); when he has so much con that the only person that can rescue him is unpromoted Shin; when his promotion item is highly sought after by 2 of the most excellent units in the game - these all diminish the value of Barth's 29 HP/18 def.

I have seen those weakpoints of him before, thank you. But I was trying to find something that will at least not leave him in Graveyard Tier as Inui wanted.

He would do better than Douglas, but getting him there is the trouble, you may have to waste some stat boosters on him, and he also joins right before a chapter that is filled with axe users.

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He wasn't doing as bad as I would have expected him to...but he is above Cath AND Hugh?

I think that if Lilina can get as high so can Hugh, he has better Spd than Lilina, he also has better durability and comes at a decent lvl, his only problems seems to be Res, it will barely grow.

Lilina only supports Roy & Gonzales, she doesn't have too much use other than that...maybe she could take on generals other mages can't.

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Hugh is weird. He's not terrible, but the problems are he's easy to penalize. Remember: this dude costs 20K (10K for buying, another 10K to promote). Before you even come close to jumping on my case that "THIS ISN'T RANKED FOOL!", that's still a heavy opportunity cost. That 20K could've promoted two units instead of just one. A lot of those Hero Crest users have to wait patiently until Chapter 16. Lott and Gonzales are not exactly "bad units". The latter is actually very solid while the former has a steady amount of Def with his Deak support (Thany gives him offense, but I'm not sure how long she lasts throughout the game). So the first thing you'd have to clear is his major Gold penalty. What's funny though is that he's cheaper than Farina. It's so weird.

If, however, you want to consider what he carries as a "net sum", he comes with Elfire, Member Card, and Elixer. The Elixer and Elfire have about 1900 Gold set in stone for him while the Member Card is 2000, which you CAN sell after you're done collecting what stat boosters you want. So technically Hugh has a 3900 Net Profit, but he's still costing us an arm and a leg just to recruit and make use of him (16,100 Gold). There IS a Guiding Ring in 18 Ilia though, so perhaps he could get that. It would at least keep his cost down a lot more since he has to wait to promote anyway (unless you want to beg for an early promotion). Since he gains a bit more EXP just from staying unpromoted he should stick to that. Might take a peek at 20/1 though:

33.75 HP | 18.5 Mag | 14.5 Skl | 15.25 Spd | 11.25 Luck | 12 Def | 11.75 Res

Excalibur - 26.5 Atk, 118 Hit, 15 AS, 41 Avoid, 34 HP, 12 Def, 12 Res

I didn't round up the .5s, but to give you a clear idea he's pretty solid. In Sacae... it borderline KOes Nomads (they'd be left with single digit HP) and he's fairly accurate on top of it (compare it to 20/5 Lance which has 108 Hit w/Javelin and B Roy / A Allan).

He could rise a little bit, maybe. I'd definitely put him up in Ilia since there is a Guiding Ring that's nearby from when he joins so he doesn't necessarily cost 20K. For Sacae... the money would definitely be an issue. Paying less for him makes him more susceptible to being doubled too, so that's out of the question. It's a pity too because he's not so bad there being accurate and all.

Edited by Colonel M
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Fir>Marcus, anyone? Tactics are such a complete joke in this game, so Marcus is much less important than in an efficiency run. You can take an extra 7 turns a chapter earlygame and still have extra time. I'd say Fir's EXP+late game combat is worth more than giving us superfluous extra time.

Edit: Whoops, wrong tier list. This is efficiency. nvm. I'll go post their.

Edited by Slize
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Lilina is way too high. Excerpts from debates to follow:

"Let's have a good laugh at Sacae route Lilina.

20/3 Lilina: B Gonzales/C Roy: 28 HP, 7 Def, 49 Evd, 14 Spd

The slowest Nomads have 18 Spd. Dang, sucks for her. Doubled by all of them. Even if she proc'd Spd an extra time, she's doubled by 2/3 of them since their Spd ranges from 18 to 20. Nomads have like...14 Str, slightly more in Skl, some Lck, and Short Bows, right? Let's roll with that. 14 Str, 16 Skl, 8 Lck, Short Bow.

78.55 True Hit, 12x2 damage... One Nomad reduces her to 4 HP. Holy fuck, that is the worst possible durability on the team. How does she even do anything? If she moves out to attack something, she needs to be rescued or a large wall has to be formed to stop a swarm of 9-10 range enemies, which hurts efficiency and restricts the team. She could have the best offense ever and still suck due to not being able to exist without dying instantly. Even if my numbers are slightly off, she's facing really high Hit and dies in nearly two hits regardless.

Silver Lance Wyvern Lords kill her in one hit.

Let us now laugh at her in Ilia, where one may think she's better due to not being doubled.

Random Steel Sword Merc: 72.99 True Hit, 17 damage to 28 HP. LOL!

vs supportless Douglas at base level: 87.75 True Hit, 3x2 damage to 46 HP. LOL!

Random Steel Lance Peg: 40.95 True Hit, 17 damage to 28 HP.

vs supportless Douglas at base level: 63.45 True Hit, 3 damage to 46 HP.

Silver Lance Falco: 65.14 True Hit, 24 damage to 28 HP.

vs supportless Douglas at base level: 82.3 True Hit, 10x2 damage to 46 HP. Douglas has to be hit twice before even having the same HP as Lilina."

"The slowest enemy in Chapter 9 is a Steel Axe Pirate with 5 AS. When does Lilina double that? At level 13+. ROFLMAO! She has no hope of doubling even the slowest enemies in the Western Isles. Bottom tier durability and bad offense ftw! Hand Axes are abundant now, so she has to eat counters more and enemies have more range. She didn't seem to improve much."

"In order to get to that level, Lilina deposited massive amounts of Suck into your team. She needed babying, kills fed to her, protection, and all that shit. She also needed a promotional item, which hindered the promotion of some other magic user and cost 10,000 Gold. Douglas? He's already promoted, and he consumed 0 EXP to get 46 HP/20 Def, and he didn't use a promotional item. Douglas is bad, but he didn't suck a whole lot for a long time just to end up bad. He can be used a little while and then get benched after tanking against Pegs or Nomads for a few chapters."

"First of all, when Lolina "joins" you, she spends most of the chapter locked in a cage doing nothing. All because some fat ugly Knight slower than snake shit and an idiot with a weird face that can't hit the broad side of a barn capture her. So she starts off as useless. And that's not all about her starting off as useless.

She has 4 Spd at base. She is unable to double the Knight beneath her until she is level 6-7. Lol wtf @ not doubling 2 Spd Knights at any point ever. Even if units like Ward fail at doubling at base level, they can use the Hammer to one-shot and don't die in one hit like she does. Her offense is atrocious and she never becomes fast. 13.6 Spd upon promotion...still gets doubled by every Nomad in Sacae, and her 35% growth ensures mediocrity in that area forever. She starts off with 92 Hit with Thunder. Doesn't sound too bad, does it? Well, it's not good at all. Enemies in this game have Lck stats and everything but a loldier has more than 0 AS. The best she can do is hit something once for a bit of damage with ~80 Hit. That's really, really bad. Since this is the only way for her to ever level up, that's a problem. How does she ever kill anything?

Every single enemy on the map kills her in one hit besides one, but it doubles her with ~90 Hit, so lol. This is her biggest problem forever. Her durability limits her forever and ever and makes her horrible. Lilina has 5 more Res than Def, so she should be able to do better against magic attacks, right? Elfire Mages have 16 Atk and 8 Spd. They do 9x2 with 88 Hit and cleanly kill her 16 HP until she gains 2-3 levels.

In order for Lilina to ever gain levels at all, she must be babied. She must be fed kills specifically set up for her. She must be constantly shielded. That limits the whole team. That is horrible. After the effort of raising her? You get nothing but a unit with huge Mag...but she doesn't double much and has poor Skl, so she can't do much else with it. Staves? Good luck with that, with her starting E staff level when she promotes."

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Well, the comparison showed how iffy her durability is IIRC. But I'm not going to jump guns; simply expect an Echinda comparison when I get the chance.

EDIT: Ill look at that Lilina excript when I get back.

Edited by Colonel M
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Well, the comparison showed how iffy her durability is IIRC. But I'm not going to jump guns; simply expect an Echinda comparison when I get the chance.

EDIT: Ill look at that Lilina excript when I get back.

I'm not great at this debate stuff, but I'll give it a shot in favor of lowering Echidna. Let's look at Echidna vs Lott in chapter 12

Steel Axe Lott

C/Dieck

lvl 15

39 hp

22 attack

8 AS

10 defence

72 base accuracy

27 base avoid

Steel Axe Echidna (killer axe) [steel sword]

no supports yet

lvl 1

35 hp

24 attack (-0) [-3]

12 AS (+4) [+5]

8 def

91 Base Accuracy (+15)[+20]

30 base avoid (+8) [+10]

So Echidna is clearly winning here. I'm not really sure how they do against enemies because I don't know where to find enemy stats. I'm not sure about the doubling abilities of either of them(Echidna can probably double much more with iron, or swords) Lets look at them comparatively at chapter 17 Ilia

Steel Axe Lott

B/Dieck

lvl 1 Warrior

51 hp

27 attack

14 AS

16 Def

81 Base accuracy

45 base avoid

Steel Axe Echidna (killer Axe)[steel sword]

C/Lalum

lvl 7

40 hp

25 attack (-0)[-3]

14 AS (+4)[+5]

10 Def

96 base accuracy (+15)[+20]

40 base avoid (+8)[+10]

Lol. So much for Echidna's speed lead. She now has to sacrifice attack to get her speed up to par when she is already losing in attack. Oh look what else. Lott rapes her in the durability department. Since this is Ilia we can expect plenty of lances so we have WTA. If Lott's accuracy is a problem, he could always switch down to iron and still do fine. Or, we could even consider him using bows. Effective mt against a common enemy type is NICE. These stats include supports built in and are rounded to the nearest whole number. I could probably take this further, but I think this presents a viable case. Sorry if I did any calculations wrong.

Edited by Core
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lol @ Echidna using Steel Axes ever

alright then she can use iron and then have crappier attack. I'll give you that. It would help if I knew what kind of AS the enemies have.

Edited by Core
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