FE6 HM Tier List

[Deliriyum]

Not Iron.

Killer.

Also she has swords.

Swords have been added. I'll add killer as well.

[-Cynthia-]

Yeah, once Echidna starts using weapons that stop giving her lolmassive Con penalties, speed leads of 4-6 are pretty significant. Since Killers are ridiculous in the game (buyable in her joining chapter, weigh as much as iron and same Mt as Steel+ crit), it really doesn't make sense for Echidna not to be using them, except when she wants to switch to swords for WT purposes.

I am in favor of Echidna moving down though, since I don't think she's a tier above Shin.

[Anouleth]

Steel Axe Lott

B/Dieck

lvl 1 Warrior

51 hp

27 attack

14 AS

16 Def

81 Base accuracy

45 base avoid

Steel Axe Echidna (killer Axe)[steel sword]

C/Lalum

lvl 7

40 hp

25 attack (-0)[-3]

14 AS (+4)[+5]

10 Def

96 base accuracy (+15)[+20]

40 base avoid (+8)[+10]

Lol. So much for Echidna's speed lead. She now has to sacrifice attack to get her speed up to par when she is already losing in attack. Oh look what else. Lott rapes her in the durability department. Since this is Ilia we can expect plenty of lances so we have WTA. If Lott's accuracy is a problem, he could always switch down to iron and still do fine. Or, we could even consider him using bows. Effective mt against a common enemy type is NICE. These stats include supports built in and are rounded to the nearest whole number. I could probably take this further, but I think this presents a viable case. Sorry if I did any calculations wrong.

Killer Axe Echidna has 18AS to Lott's 14AS. According to my enemy stats, Mages, Cavs and Paladins have 13 AS, Fighters have 12AS, Knights have 5AS. (My enemy stats won't tell me what weapons they use, or the stats for other enemy types >_<). So Lott only doubles Cavs that are stupid enough to weigh themselves down with Steel, while Echidna doubles everything. In addition, Echidna has a durability lead against all axe users and sword users, since she can use swords herself and get WTA or avoid WTD.

Lott's offensive advantage isn't that impressive, in other words. His 2 ATK lead doesn't help him in any matchups (he and Echidna have the same #HKO against every enemy with Steel), he loses accuracy against everything, he has no WTC, he doubles only Knights. His only real lead is in durability.

[Deliriyum]

Killer Axe Echidna has 18AS to Lott's 14AS. According to my enemy stats, Mages, Cavs and Paladins have 13 AS, Fighters have 12AS, Knights have 5AS. (My enemy stats won't tell me what weapons they use, or the stats for other enemy types >_<). So Lott only doubles Cavs that are stupid enough to weigh themselves down with Steel, while Echidna doubles everything. In addition, Echidna has a durability lead against all axe users and sword users, since she can use swords herself and get WTA or avoid WTD.

Lott's offensive advantage isn't that impressive, in other words. His 2 ATK lead doesn't help him in any matchups (he and Echidna have the same #HKO against every enemy with Steel), he loses accuracy against everything, he has no WTC, he doubles only Knights. His only real lead is in durability.

Well The purpose of this isn't to prove Lott>Echidna. That is definitely not true. The purpose of using Lott was to compare Echidna to someone a tier below her, where Colonel thought she might be placed. The way I see it, the only thing saving her from upper mid is axes, where she can opt out of WTDA against lances. I think she could go down to the bottom of high, but it really isn't up to me, that is just my opinion.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Core

[Colonel M]

I'm going to copy->paste that Gonzo > Echinda discussion. This might help with asserting on levels and such:

Echidman vs Speedy Gonzales

This game has a weird tendency of throwing hilariously under-levelled units with HM bonuses at you (Rutger, Fir, and Miledy come to mind). Gonzales is no exception.

In fact, wow. 12-13 exp/hit and 49-50 exp/kill is like he took one of your average levelled units and tossed paragon onto them. Still, Gonzales can join at best on turn 6, so I wouldn’t expect more than 2 levels.

Gonzales lv 7/0: 44 hp, 7 def, 1 res

Iron axe: 25 atk, 82.5 hit, 12 AS, 31 avo

Echidna lv --/1: 35 hp, 8 def, 7 res

Steel sword: 21 atk, 111 hit, 17 AS, 40 avo

Steel axe: 24 atk, 91 hit, 12 AS, 30 avo

On a side note, 0_0 x 30 at Gonzales’ hp. This is the first character I’ve ever seen that caps hp at 20/1. He also has C15 Percival’s base str at lv 12/0. His accuracy must really destroy him if he’s not at the top of high.

Anyway, Echidna definitely wins offence. >= AS to him and higher hit definitely wins over slightly less atk. Durability-wise, Echidna probably wins again. 9 hp vs 1 def/6 res/0-9 avo/better WTC control.

Can Echidna keep up with Gonzales’ insane levelling rate though?

The C11 enemies are lv 14-16 instead of lv 11-14, which means 7/0 Gonzo is gaining EVEN MORE than 50 exp/kill. He won’t really slow down either; once he matches their levels, he’ll still be gaining 30/kill. Echidna, on the other hand, is gaining 8 exp/hit (same for kill). You could give Gonzales something like 8 levels to her 1.

Gonzales lv 15/0: 52 hp, 9 def, 1 res, 8.5 cev

Killer axe: 31 atk, 88 hit, 34.5 crit, 16 AS, 42 avo

Gonzales lv 15/1: 56 hp, 12 def, 1 res, 8.5 cev

Killer axe: 33 atk, 98 hit, 67 crit, 18 AS, 46 avo

Echidna lv --/2: 36 hp, 8 def, 7 res, 6 cev

Killing edge: 22 atk, 121 hit, 40 crit, 18 AS, 40 avo

Killer axe: 24 atk, 106 hit, 40 crit, 16 AS, 36 avo

This is a good time to talk about Gonzales’ early promotion. The most ideal time is around lv 12-15 since he has everything he wants (hp/str/spd) except what he can’t have (lousy growths in skl/def/res), the latter of which is fulfilled through a promotion (+5 skl wtf), and of course 32.5 crit. I can’t see the opportunity cost even being that high. He may withhold Dieck from getting a little AS and axes, but axes just trade lots of hit for some atk, so it’s quite easily less beneficial than gaining 10 hit AND 30 crit.

So, assuming Gonzales gets his promotion, he beats Echidna around the board pretty badly. 9+ atk means 18 more damage per double, and a hilarious amount more when crits are involved. They have about the same AS but then Gonzales has the con to wield axes while Echidna doesn’t. And obviously 27 crit is another monstrous lead. Defensively, the hp difference has grown to 20, and now Gonzo is winning avo and def by a decent margin. That >>> res.

Everything boils down to hitrate, but I think it’s easy to show ALL of Gonzales’ leads overwhelm that single advantage.

For example, check out this 17I cav:

Cav lv 15 (steel lance, javelin): 39 hp, 24 atk, 84 hit, 23 avo, 8 AS, 10 def, 4 res, 7 cev

Offensively, Gonzales 2HKOes while Echidna 3HKOes. The odds of Echidna landing all 3 hits is about 84%, whereas Gonzales landing 2 out of 3 hits is 95.86%. In addition, Echidna’s chance to crit at least once in 3 hits is ~70%. Gonzales’ chance to crit at least once in 2 hits is 84%.

Defensively, Gonzo is 5RKOed at 16 true hit while Echidna is 3RKOed at 29 true hit. CoD for Gonzales in 5 attacks is 0.01% while it’s 15% for Echidna. That’s a factor difference of about 1500.

Things only get better for Gonzales in the future. Both characters have roughly the same level now, but he curbstomps her in the growth department. 15 hp/30 str/-10 skl/20 spd/15 luck/10 def/-10 res advantages ftw. Supports help Gonzales more as well; if Lilina’s in play, he gets more hit, and Gonzo and Echidna happen to support each other, which gives him even more hit. Granted, Echidna can get hit from her own supports, but she never had a problem there to begin with. She also has a quick support with Lalum, but I’m iffy on dancers supporting fighters (I can dig up a post on why if you want). The rest of both characters’ support lists are 1+1, so I don’t think that’ll ever matter.

I have to say, I don’t just think Gonzales > Echidna, but that they could even have a tier separation, or at least be at polar opposites of the same tier. That’s reasonably possible considering there’s a bunch of utility units in high (thieves, dancers, healers) that can be shuffled around.

[Inui]

I think we all know that Gonzales is amazing and Echidna has those flaws.

But why is Lilina not in the tier above Graveyard?

Edited February 26, 2010 by Inui

[Colonel M]

I think we all know that Gonzales is amazing and Echidna has those flaws.

But why is Lilina not in the tier above Graveyard?

That's because I haven't read the argument yet, which I will do so right now.

[Colonel M]

Hmm... yes, there shouldn't really be this much of a gap between Lilina and Sue. Sue at least can fathom some durability to an extent later in the game...

I don't think it's completely unreasonable for her to drop. I always wondered why she was above Ray, and IIRC that was made when GJ had the tier list. Sooo, I'll let others respond to it, but I can probably see these two hitting a midway point or something.

[Inui]

Ray is really good. I can address that later with Nosferatu h4x, staff utility after promotion. and a guaranteed Lugh support if you wish. He has Lilina's only positive, which is huge Mag, but with other stats too.

[Mekkah]

Don't forget accuracy issues and below average hp/def/AS. He's a usable mid tier, but he's not "really good".

[Colonel M]

And please refrain from your 1337speak. We're in the 21st century, we can talk like human beings instead of computers.

[Inui]

Don't forget accuracy issues and below average hp/def/AS. He's a usable mid tier, but he's not "really good".

Full Hit support, his AS is average/decent after promotion, and his HP/Def hardly matter when he has Nosferatu. His initial Hit issues are like...less bothersome than Gonzales's in many cases. He just doesn't as much enemy phase use to level up more easily.

And please refrain from your 1337speak. We're in the 21st century, we can talk like human beings instead of computers.

Who cares, dude? Are you confrontational/tyrannical on purpose or something? That's more lame than if I typed in 1337 entirely or something extreme imo.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Inui

[-Cynthia-]

It gets rather expensive to buy multiple Nosferatus though, and we only get one chance to do so before Ch23.

I'm not so sure on Ray's supports either. Hugh and Sofiya are slow and not very good characters. Niime joins late and its slow, Chad is too slow ehen he won't be deployed consistently, which just leaves Lugh. Lugh might have filled up some slots with Chad/Ellen already, or might not be fielded at all since he's fairly average.

Edited February 26, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[CATS]

If you're using Lugh and Ray, then you'll probably leave Lugh open for a Ray support. Lugh x Ray is +3 while Lugh x Ellen is only +1, and Ellen's a healer for most if not all of the time before Ray will join and start supporting Lugh, so Lugh x Ellen is a fairly trivial support before Ray joins. Meanwhile, the support helps Ray alot since it's fast and he has no other options, whereas Ellen has other options she can go to.

Nosferatu's price tag shouldn't be much of an issue if it does what it's intended to. Okay, Ray costs more than Other Unit, let's have Other Unit buy an Angelic Robe in Ch 16 to compensate for Ray getting Nosferatu. Other Unit gained +7 Hp; Ray gained near-invincibility and self-healing. Unless you think Funds is actually difficult to the point where cost per use on basic weapons matters and such like that, then I don't think this is a significant point.

[Inui]

CATS covered it already, lol.

Ray ftw. Most underrated unit in this game.

[Deliriyum]

CATS covered it already, lol.

Ray ftw. Most underrated unit in this game.

Sure would be better if he was actually doubling reliably. Meaning, I doubt he's ever going to be seeing much ORKOs except for the givens(soldiers, knights, archers)

Edited February 26, 2010 by Core

[Inui]

He doesn't double...things that like...only Rutger doubles, like Sacae Nomads. Pegs in Ilia? Weighed down enemies in general? Axe d00ds? Wyverns? His fellow magic users? He gets those just fine. He's also pretty much the only unit that can OHKO Mamkutes later on. Even if Lilina has full supports and caps Mag, she can't OHKO with Forblaze.

[CATS]

Pre-promo maybe. But most non-top-tiers have trouble one-rounding before promotion. This is FE6. Then post-promotion, Ray isn't underleveled anymore and his Spd isn't bad. At 20/10 Dieck has only 1.4 more Spd than Ray.

[Colonel M]

He doesn't double...things that like...only Rutger doubles, like Sacae Nomads. Pegs in Ilia? Weighed down enemies in general? Axe d00ds? Wyverns? His fellow magic users? He gets those just fine. He's also pretty much the only unit that can OHKO Mamkutes later on. Even if Lilina has full supports and caps Mag, she can't OHKO with Forblaze.

He can double some of the weighed down enemies, yes. No, he can't double most, if not all of the magic users. Wyverns are borderline (If they have Javelins IIRC). He also can fail to double Fighters that wield anything light like Hand Axes.

[CATS]

Others aren't one-rounding those things anyways. Are Treck or Geese doubling things that Ray isn't? Nope, their Spd is almost the exact same as Ray's. Meanwhile:

15 Ray w/ Flux: 22.4 Atk, 94.6 Hit

15 Geese w/ Iron: 20.5 Atk, 91.5 Hit

15 Treck w/ Iron Lance: 19.4 Atk, 93.85 Hit

Note, however, that Ray hits on Res.

[Mekkah]

He doesn't double...things that like...only Rutger doubles, like Sacae Nomads. Pegs in Ilia? Weighed down enemies in general? Axe d00ds? Wyverns? His fellow magic users? He gets those just fine. He's also pretty much the only unit that can OHKO Mamkutes later on. Even if Lilina has full supports and caps Mag, she can't OHKO with Forblaze.

iono man, he definitely doesn't double right off the bat, and especially not with Nosferatu. He starts with 9 spd, so 8 AS with Flux and 7 AS with Nosferatu. Even slugs like Steel Lance Wyverns in Ch13 have 8-10 AS. Longbow Archers have 7 AS. It takes an early Guiding Ring or like five level-ups before he's reliably doubling slow enemies.

Even on promotion, his doubling is rather borderline even with Flux. 20/1 Ray has 14 AS. In Ch16, all this doubles are slower Bishops (there's two, they have 10-11 AS), Steel Axe Fighters (there's three Fighters, one only has Killer, one has an optional Hand Axe), Knights and Mamkutes.

Mages at this point have like 12-13 AS. It takes 20/6 Ray to double the slower ones with Flux, 20/8 for the faster ones, and another spd proc (2-3 level-ups) to make up for Nosferatu. Meanwhile, Mercs at this point have 16+ AS (there's a KE Merc on Ch16 with 18 AS), in which case it's going to be pretty dangerous to whip out Nosferatu.

Ilia Cavaliers have similar Spd levels. If they are nice to Ray and use Steel (losing 4 AS), he should be comfortably doubling. Javelins make him very borderline with Flux, and the ones that only weigh down by 1 AS (Steel Sword) or none (Killer Lance) make his life uncomfortable. Steel Bow Archers (~10 AS) he'll do. Paladins (13 AS), no way. Pegasus Knights are fine because they insist on weighing themselves down, though he can't take on a crowd of them even with Nosferatu since some of them have Killer Lances. A 23 atk Killer Lance takes out Ray pretty much always, even if he has B Lugh and an inflated level - 20/10 Ray only has 35 hp/10.5 def (with support).

For hit issues, both tomes have 70 hit. Ray's promoted hit barely exceeds 100 (it's about ~105), and even something like an Axereaver Pegasus Knight sports 30 avo. He'd have ~87.75% true here. That's fine and dandy for FE6 standards because hit in general is low, but not when you're relying on Nosferatu's one hit to keep you alive. The fact that Ray needs to be like 20/5 to double an Axereaver Pegasus with Nosferatu isn't helping, either.

Look at it in-context:

-Lower Mid Tier-

Cecilia

Bartre

Zealot

Noah

Treck

Oujay

Geese

Ward

Fa

Niime

Ray

Igrene

Lilina

Garret

Zeiss

Douglas

Barth

I don't see how he is underrated at all. It's as I said, he's a useable dude, but he's nowhere near awesome.

[Colonel M]

Others aren't one-rounding those things anyways. Are Treck or Geese doubling things that Ray isn't? Nope, their Spd is almost the exact same as Ray's. Meanwhile:

15 Ray w/ Flux: 22.4 Atk, 94.6 Hit

15 Geese w/ Iron: 20.5 Atk, 91.5 Hit

15 Treck w/ Iron Lance: 19.4 Atk, 93.85 Hit

Note, however, that Ray hits on Res.

Your missing my point here (btw that Geese should have a Killer Axe though I guess it only matters crit-wise). Even look at their 20/1:

20/1 Ray w/Flux: 27.6 Atk, 103 Hit, 14 AS

20/1 Geese w/Killer: 29 Atk, 103 Hit, 14 AS, 68 Crit

Ray may win in hitting Res I admit, but Geese also has that extra % chance to land a killing blow with the Killer Axe if he fails to double.

I was merely correcting Inui's statement that he doubles the units he listed, which he fails in some instances (and before promotion definitely fails to do unless you're an Armor Knight).

...Not to mention wtf at Treck being so high?

Edited February 27, 2010 by Colonel M

[Reikken]

^yep, exactly. Why Ray is worse:

12 Ray, Flux:

20.0 atk, 8.0 AS, 90.3 hit, 4.3 crit - - 21.0 avo, 23.0 hp, 6.0 def, 10.0 res, 5.0 critavo

12 Geese, Killer Axe:

22.0 atk, 9.8 AS, 88.2 hit, 34.5 crit - - 28.0 avo, 34.7 hp, 9.8 def, 0.2 res, 8.4 critavo

14 Noah, Steel Sword, C Fir: C/B Treck is a definite if you're using Treck, but I'm not including it here

19.1 atk, 11.1 AS, 96.6 hit, 6.8 crit - - 36.3 avo, 32.3 hp, 8.8 def, 1.7 res, 11.1 critavo

all with weapons you can buy. Geese doubles more and crits much of the time, and the damage difference isn't much.

[Dat Nick]

Merlinus should be back on the tier list, here. You can't tier him in one game and not the other.

*ducks and covers*

[Reikken]

His only use after ch 4 is to help you sell large numbers of items at a time, and even doing that costs you a unit. so he's not very high. Somewhere below Wolt.