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FE6 HM Tier List


Colonel M
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I'm kind of wondering about Fa's placement on the list, can someone link me to some discussion regarding why she is where she is or just give me the general argument? Thanks...

I think it's something along the lines of: late recruitment in comparison to level, low weapon rank, crappy supports, and disheartening growths; 25% STR and 15% DEF is BAD. As in, worse than Saul bad. If you compare her to Rutgar, who comes earlier, with better supports, and on top of that, a higher weapon level, has better growths in most places and beats Fir in bases.

Basically, she's a crappier Rutgar but she is still worth using, since a crappy Rutgar is still worth something.

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I think it's something along the lines of: late recruitment in comparison to level, low weapon rank, crappy supports, and disheartening growths; 25% STR and 15% DEF is BAD. As in, worse than Saul bad. If you compare her to Rutgar, who comes earlier, with better supports, and on top of that, a higher weapon level, has better growths in most places and beats Fir in bases.

Basically, she's a crappier Rutgar but she is still worth using, since a crappy Rutgar is still worth something.

Lol. Fa is a mamkute who has 90% str and 30% def. She has no weapon ranks and is forced in endgame. Fir is a somewhat crappy myrmidon you get in ch9

Edited by Core
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I kind of wanted to argue her up if possible, but I don't want to make arguments that were already made before and would like to understand her current placement.

Also Saul nor Fir has bad growths per say as one primarily heals and can probably double after promotion and the other is able to double right off the bat in an axe heavy portion of the game and is fortunately stuck to swords. Fir is also able to use the Wo Dao to make killing axe users easier for her. Saying Fir's growths are bad is like saying Rutger's growths are bad as growths have no worth in themselves unless you choose to raise them enough for them to take effect. Fir doesn't have bad supports either just very slow ones with Shin and Rutger. Also uppermid =\= bad

Anyway this is about Fa so any help with past discussion is helpful, links especially

Edited by User Account
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I believe the discussion was that Fa was an auto-utility in anti-dragon powers, and I recall she has ways to be nigh invincible in Sacae. Also, in Sacae, she has a viable support in Igrene for the defense and accuracy boost, something both would be quite fond of there.

I'm also pretty sure that Gonzo and Clarine has already been over with. I forget where, but I believe it was dondon who argued it.

Edited by Galactica Leader Cyrus
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I don't even think Gonzo is better than Percival once Percival shows up and Clarine has useful healing pre promotion and is an acceptable fighter post promotion. Considering Gonzo's hit issues mkae him difficult to raise, him moving up just makes very little sense.

Edited by -Cynthia-
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I'm also pretty sure that Gonzo and Clarine has already been over with. I forget where, but I believe it was dondon who argued it.

*Mekkah

also heres the log

[15:44:55] <@Lolipop> back to fe6 for a minute

[15:45:03] <@Lolipop> clarine>gonzales

[15:45:06] <@Lolipop> dont quite get that one

[15:46:28] <~Mekkah> healing vs combat

[15:46:31] <~Mekkah> need more?

[15:47:55] <@Lolipop> didnt you say that you cant hand-wave a massive gap in performance with lolstaves

[15:47:58] <@Lolipop> ie moulder vs forde

[15:48:09] <@Lolipop> well i think it goes without saying that gonzales shitstomps clarine in offense

[15:52:45] <~Mekkah> [15:47:55] <@Lolipop> didnt you say that you cant hand-wave a massive gap in performance with lolstaves

[15:53:00] <~Mekkah> no, but i didnt say that you could handwave all healer vs combat unit things

[15:53:07] <~Mekkah> in gonzo vs clarine, clarine is actually the one with the mount utility

[15:53:17] <@Lolipop> the mount actually hurts though

[15:53:24] <@Lolipop> because gonzales promoted has equal move

[15:53:27] <@Lolipop> and less terrain problems

[15:53:28] <~Mekkah> no

[15:53:31] <~Mekkah> that's fe8

[15:53:38] <~Mekkah> fe6 has classic 7 mov troubs -> 8 mov valks

[15:53:44] <~Mekkah> gonzo has 5 -> 6

[15:54:06] <@Lolipop> ...my bad

[15:54:24] <~Mekkah> clarine also has a pretty large availability lead

[15:54:43] <@Lolipop> still the offense lead is huge and i think gonz wins durability too although it depends which point in the game youre talking about

[15:55:02] <@Lolipop> If it's a lance flood WTA pads his massive hp and avg def with some degree of semi-reliable avoid, too

[15:55:26] <~Mekkah> obviously gonzo's martial arts are superior (other than the whole missing is horrible thing)

[15:55:40] <~Mekkah> which is why it isnt a blow out in clarine's favor

[15:55:47] <~Mekkah> it's al ot of combat things vs a lot of non combat things

[15:56:06] <@Lolipop> well again it depends at which point in the game you're talking about. If it's at a point where he's promoted and there's a lot of lances he shouldn't have too many accuracy issues

[15:57:48] <~Mekkah> i dont think it can be questioned that clarine wins ch4-ch10

[15:57:57] <~Mekkah> and probably at least until gonzo's promo

[15:58:18] <~Mekkah> after that, it becomes more arguable

[15:58:45] <~Mekkah> if gonzo's promo is procastinated until 16 secret shop, he loses quite considerably

[15:59:45] <@Lolipop> 3 crests until c16...well i guess two really

[15:59:56] <@Lolipop> Dieck

[15:59:58] <@Lolipop> Rutger

[15:59:59] <@Lolipop> Ward

[16:00:00] <@Lolipop> Lot

[16:00:10] <@Lolipop> OJ

[16:00:11] <@Lolipop> Fir

[16:00:12] <@Lolipop> Geese

[16:00:14] <@Lolipop> Gonzales

[16:00:24] <@Lolipop> obviously at least two others besides him are going to be around

[16:00:58] <~Mekkah> dieck and rutger's names might as well be burned into the line-up list

[16:01:20] <~Mekkah> and only one of the others is a fair assumption

[16:01:31] <~Mekkah> so the opp cost for gonzo taking one is something like rutger waiting for 30% crt

[16:01:36] <~Mekkah> or dieck getting axes

[16:02:07] <~Mekkah> of course clarine has the same issue

[16:02:23] <@Lolipop> Well Clarine's bugged by it less

[16:02:32] <~Mekkah> yeah she remains a mounted healplox no matter what

[16:02:41] <@Lolipop> it's look I can has shit offense now and will still be a staffwhore half the time anyway

[16:03:11] <~Mekkah> i think she can still manage 2RKOs at least

[16:03:19] <@Lolipop> i dont think promoting her late is going to affect her significantly, probably missing out on Aircaliburing wyverns but thats two chatpers of real usefulness anyway so big shoopdawoop

[16:03:40] <@Lolipop> So im fine with her>Gonzales I guess

Edited by Fred Fuchs
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Others aren't one-rounding those things anyways. Are Treck or Geese doubling things that Ray isn't? Nope, their Spd is almost the exact same as Ray's. Meanwhile:

15 Ray w/ Flux: 22.4 Atk, 94.6 Hit

15 Geese w/ Iron: 20.5 Atk, 91.5 Hit

15 Treck w/ Iron Lance: 19.4 Atk, 93.85 Hit

Note, however, that Ray hits on Res.

That's what I see, too.

iono man, he definitely doesn't double right off the bat, and especially not with Nosferatu. He starts with 9 spd, so 8 AS with Flux and 7 AS with Nosferatu. Even slugs like Steel Lance Wyverns in Ch13 have 8-10 AS. Longbow Archers have 7 AS. It takes an early Guiding Ring or like five level-ups before he's reliably doubling slow enemies.

Even on promotion, his doubling is rather borderline even with Flux. 20/1 Ray has 14 AS. In Ch16, all this doubles are slower Bishops (there's two, they have 10-11 AS), Steel Axe Fighters (there's three Fighters, one only has Killer, one has an optional Hand Axe), Knights and Mamkutes.

Mages at this point have like 12-13 AS. It takes 20/6 Ray to double the slower ones with Flux, 20/8 for the faster ones, and another spd proc (2-3 level-ups) to make up for Nosferatu. Meanwhile, Mercs at this point have 16+ AS (there's a KE Merc on Ch16 with 18 AS), in which case it's going to be pretty dangerous to whip out Nosferatu.

Ilia Cavaliers have similar Spd levels. If they are nice to Ray and use Steel (losing 4 AS), he should be comfortably doubling. Javelins make him very borderline with Flux, and the ones that only weigh down by 1 AS (Steel Sword) or none (Killer Lance) make his life uncomfortable. Steel Bow Archers (~10 AS) he'll do. Paladins (13 AS), no way. Pegasus Knights are fine because they insist on weighing themselves down, though he can't take on a crowd of them even with Nosferatu since some of them have Killer Lances. A 23 atk Killer Lance takes out Ray pretty much always, even if he has B Lugh and an inflated level - 20/10 Ray only has 35 hp/10.5 def (with support).

For hit issues, both tomes have 70 hit. Ray's promoted hit barely exceeds 100 (it's about ~105), and even something like an Axereaver Pegasus Knight sports 30 avo. He'd have ~87.75% true here. That's fine and dandy for FE6 standards because hit in general is low, but not when you're relying on Nosferatu's one hit to keep you alive. The fact that Ray needs to be like 20/5 to double an Axereaver Pegasus with Nosferatu isn't helping, either.

Look at it in-context:

-Lower Mid Tier-

Cecilia

Bartre

Zealot

Noah

Treck

Oujay

Geese

Ward

Fa

Niime

Ray

Igrene

Lilina

Garret

Zeiss

Douglas

Barth

I don't see how he is underrated at all. It's as I said, he's a useable dude, but he's nowhere near awesome.

Ray is way too low. Why is he below Niime? Let us compare her to an underleveled Ray when she joins.

20/18 Niime: 21 Atk, 47 Hit, 15 AS, 10 Crit --- 25 HP, 5 Def, 18 Res, 45 Evd, 15 Crit Evd

20/1 Ray w/ A Lugh: 21 Atk, 48 Hit, 14 AS, 14 Crit --- 30 HP, 9 Def, 16 Res, 50 Evd, 14 Crit Evd

First of all, keep in mind that this Ray is quite underleveled. I'd consider this the worst case scenario if you're actually using Ray. It means a unit with big EXP gains was gaining less than a level per chapter. That is total neglect.

Yet, Ray is still going to end up better than her. Niime has no enemy phase utility at all. It takes only 30 Atk to OHKO her, and some enemies indeed have that. If something doubles her, she's dead. If she's hit twice, she's certainly dead. Even in this lopsided and unrealistic comparison, Ray has 5 more HP and 4 more Def. That is quite substantial. Easily an additional hit on the enemy phase. He also has 5 more Evd.

Niime certainly has her positives. She has a huge starting staff level and didn't use a promotional item. And that's where her advantages over Ray end. Ray is great for the Experience rank, is going to wtfpwn her in every aspect in a short time since he'll quickly gain levels and she never changes, he gives and receives support bonuses, and he has a big availability win. Niime can gain every stat both times and still be way worse than a lower level Ray.

Is a staff rank and not using a Guiding Ring really worth more than Ray winning everything else against her?

Now, for my next point. Why is Cecilia that high at all?

15/0 Ray w/ C Lugh: 13 Atk, 29.4 Hit, 9 AS, 7.35 Crit --- 24.6 HP, 5.5 Def, 11 Res, 29 Evd, 8 Crit Evd

20/1 Cecilia: 11 Atk, 19 hit, 10 AS, 3 Crit --- 30 HP, 7 Def, 13 Res, 10 Crit Evd

Okay, so Cecilia didn't need a promotional item. Advantage noted. And that's the end of that.

Ray is already stomping her in terms of Atk. 2 more base Atk and stronger tomes. Cecilia has more accurate tomes, but Ray also has 10 more Hit anyways. Cecilia has more AS, but I can't think of anything she doubles that he won't.

Cecilia has more Mov, right? Too bad Ray actually has more in her joining chapter due to sand. Cecilia is suck moving barely any amount every turn and the Mercs nearly one-round her and the Heroes actually do. She's not doing much of anything at all. Ray can move around to help kill stuff more easily, follow Lugh with the support bonuses and build them up more, go get items from the sand, etc. Cecilia moves 2 spaces per turn and does almost nothing. Let's get the Silver Card and purchase a bunch of Nosferatus for Ray since he can be invincible with those.

Okay, let's head to Chapter 14x. Too bad Cecilia can't come along for the ride without sucking more. Ohtz one-rounds her with Bolting since he still has 15 god damn AS with it. Even a Spd proc won't save her. Ray? He gets doubled too, but he also has way more Evd against it than Cecilia so he can actually survive. Ray has 47 Evd vs it while she has 30. Or he can just not be doubled and be promoted at 17/0 or something. Losing three levels isn't going to make him somehow worse than Cecilia. He still contributes way more to Experience and has better stats.

Once Chapter 15 hits, it turns into Ray's much better stats (Lugh support makes them much better) against her having a horse and staves (if you wait until Chapter 16 to promote him at 20/0). In terms of combat, she's garbz forever. Much slower, comparable or worse Hit, much less Atk. In terms of durability, she's even more garbz forever. Mediocre HP/Def + gets doubled a lot + has bad Evd <<< Mediocre HP/Def + rarely gets doubled + Nosferatu + much better Evd.

You can argue for some initial wins for Cecilia and Niime, but those quickly disappear due to Ray's awesome growths against their horrible or nonexistent ones coupled with faster level gains.

I fail to see how 10,000 Gold, 2 Mov, and a C starting staff level exceeds significantly better stats and more Experience rank contributions.

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I fail to see how 10,000 Gold, 2 Mov, and a C starting staff level exceeds significantly better stats and more Experience rank contributions.

This isn't the ranked list.

Just sayin'.

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Ray is great for the Experience rank.

Which would mean something there. Not here.

Is a staff rank and not using a Guiding Ring really worth more than Ray winning everything else against her?

Yes. To get Rei there, there's the cost of raising him to that point and as you pointed out, a promotion item which is actually in demand and would most likely result in having to purchase one from Chapter 16. When he get's there, he's basically another combat unit, a resource you already have plenty of better choices to choose from. A resource in surplus you could say.

In the case of Niime, she comes in with all her benefits at absolutely no cost and has a good number of chapters in which to function, obviously not as much as Ray but during the time Rei's time around when Niime isn't, he's just being a subpar combat unit in need of babying to catch up to the others (assuming he even gets there what with his doubling issues and possible hit issues thanks to his weapon selection). Niime on the other hand is practically your best staff user the second she comes in, having the best range with all staves such as Physic, Warp (which helps in terms of efficiency), Rescue and status staves (just try silencing enemies with Clarine and Saul). Put simply, she's a scarce resource at no cost and keeping her alive is hardly an issue thanks to Physic.

Edited by Speedwagon
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Okay then. No Experience rank. I forgot unranked lists exist.

Much better stats still stands. MUCH better. Ray slaughters those bitches, lol.

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I don't know why Cecilia is that high either. All she can do is give you a 4th or 5th healer for the second half of the game, which isn't useful. You don't need 6 healers or something like that, especially not on efficiency where Exp rank doesn't matter, and you have many other options besides Cecilia for just healing. Niime, Yodel, even a base level Ray or Hugh that are just fed a Guiding Ring instantly after joining. That's quite a few options without even considering the 3 actual primary healers that are available.

Is she worse than Ray? I don't know. I don't see much reason to use Ray either. But there's no reason for her to be over Zealot, whose presence is actually adding something to your overall efficiency, considering he has a period of time where he is very good or atleast clearly useful in combat.

Edited by CATS
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I have 1 question. What are Ray and Lilina and doing above Douglas and Barth in the Sacae tier list when in the Ilia tier list they're almost in their exact same position while in Sacae, the 2 magic users are basically slaughtered with ease (and in Ray's case, there's hit issues)?

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I don't know why Cecilia is that high either. All she can do is give you a 4th or 5th healer for the second half of the game, which isn't useful. You don't need 6 healers or something like that, especially not on efficiency where Exp rank doesn't matter, and you have many other options besides Cecilia for just healing. Niime, Yodel, even a base level Ray or Hugh that are just fed a Guiding Ring instantly after joining. That's quite a few options without even considering the 3 actual primary healers that are available.

Niime and Yodel are still quite a fair bit away from joining.

Ellen and Saul don't have mounts, nor would I call Ellen stunning post promotion and probably wouldn't bother with her once I get Cecilia. Saul? Well, offensively he wins, due to doubling. He's about as shaky on wanting to see attacks just as much, since his Luck is fucky sucky enough.

Basically this leaves Clarine and Saul, Lou after promotion. Lou I feel would prefer to do something with his actually existing combat power than waste his time donking someone with a staff, and the difference between her and Saul is that she has a mount, where he has offense and Cecilia has supports.

She's not the uber-staffer, but she's got a fair reason to slip into the army, or replace some out of date staffers while helping to keep secondary healers doing what they'd prefer to do, kill things.

Is she worse than Ray? I don't know. I don't see much reason to use Ray either. But there's no reason for her to be over Zealot, whose presence is actually adding something to your overall efficiency, considering he has a period of time where he is very good or atleast clearly useful in combat.

I'd agree with that, but that's because I think he should rise to upper mid, which I believe you and me agree upon.

Also, I agree on the notion of Lillina and Ray going below Doug and Barth in Sacae.

Edited by Galactica Leader Cyrus
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Actually, if people seriously think Cecilia is useful lategame, then I have to agree with Inui about Ray > Cecilia. Let's just give Ray a level in his join chapter since he's free there, then use him in 14 since he can actually move there, and say he gets another level in that chap while Cecilia doesn't. Then Cecilia gets 1 level before you can buy a Guiding Ring in Ch 16.

14/1 Ray w/ Flux: 24.9 Atk, 97.35 Hit, 11.8 AS----27.1 Hp, 7.3 Def, 12.7 Res, 29.9 Avo

2 Cecilia w/ Elfire: 19.3 Atk, 95.1 Hit, 10.2 AS----30.6 Hp, 7.2 Def, 13.2 Res, 30.6 Avo

Ray wins growths so that's not gonna get any better for Cecilia. lol.

I have 1 question. What are Ray and Lilina and doing above Douglas and Barth in the Sacae tier list when in the Ilia tier list they're almost in their exact same position while in Sacae, the 2 magic users are basically slaughtered with ease (and in Ray's case, there's hit issues)?

Citing hit issues for Ray, but not for the armors? Douglas and Barth have defense, but their offense is a complete failure. They can't hit those nomads with FE6's low-hit weapons, and the nomads won't target them anyways since their Def is high. They're not worthwhile in Sacae either.

Niime and Yodel are still quite a fair bit away from joining.

The fact that they exist significantly cuts down the time period where you can even try to argue that Cecilia is useful. Healing gets significant more redundant around Ch 20. Not counting 14 because lol1move, this gives Cecilia 7-8 chapters where she might be worth using. Put that up against Zealot's Ch 7-12/13. If Cecilia's "useful" period beats Zealot's, i.e. being a 4th or 5th healer beats being a powerful combatant, then Ellen, Saul and Clarine need to be top tier, since they're only 2nd or 3rd healers until Cecilia joins.

Ellen and Saul don't have mounts, nor would I call Ellen stunning post promotion and probably wouldn't bother with her once I get Cecilia. Saul? Well, offensively he wins, due to doubling. He's about as shaky on wanting to see attacks just as much, since his Luck is fucky sucky enough.

Are you saying they're worse than Cecilia stat-wise?

Mounts? Depends. Can Cecilia afford to rush ahead 8 spaces every turn, i.e. separate herself from the main group, with her 30 Hp/7 Def/10 Spd?

I'd agree with that, but that's because I think he should rise to upper mid, which I believe you and me agree upon.

Yep. I notice my post for that was basically ignored yet again.

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Yet, Ray is still going to end up better than her. Niime has no enemy phase utility at all. It takes only 30 Atk to OHKO her, and some enemies indeed have that. If something doubles her, she's dead. If she's hit twice, she's certainly dead. Even in this lopsided and unrealistic comparison, Ray has 5 more HP and 4 more Def. That is quite substantial. Easily an additional hit on the enemy phase. He also has 5 more Evd.

You have access to unlimited Angelic Robes and Nosferatus, so Niime only worries about when she's doubled, which is pretty much limited to heroes exclusively.

Niime certainly has her positives. She has a huge starting staff level and didn't use a promotional item. And that's where her advantages over Ray end. Ray is great for the Experience rank, is going to wtfpwn her in every aspect in a short time since he'll quickly gain levels and she never changes, he gives and receives support bonuses, and he has a big availability win. Niime can gain every stat both times and still be way worse than a lower level Ray.

I'm pretty sure that Niime and Ray's current positions are determined with respect to net utility. Ray is not worth deploying when he joins, but Niime is a useful filler, so naturally Niime is higher than Ray. I think this is stupid as well (although completely logical), but it seems that CATS is always around to cockblock me with respect to tiering ideology, so I gave up on trying in the first place.

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Citing hit issues for Ray, but not for the armors? Douglas and Barth have defense, but their offense is a complete failure.

They can't hit those nomads with FE6's low-hit weapons, and the nomads won't target them anyways since their Def is high. They're not worthwhile in Sacae either.

Offense would be all that Rei has in that place so him having hit issues is a bigger deal to him than it is to the armors since they won't die while Rei would probably need to hit with a counter-attack in order to survive.

@Italic: Obviously (they can but lol freakishly low hit rates, least there's Steel Sword troopers around). They do however have the option of Brave Lance during the player phase if need be (unless you're addicted to that thing, it's likely not completely used up and others would suffer speed penalties that would put them in the Speed range for the Nomads to double so you'd have to trade weapons in order to avoid such instances).

@Bold: I don't remember this game having that kind of AI from FE5. I do specifically remember sending a Delphi Shield Miledy south in Monke's (Nomad Trooper dood with Brave Sword and Brave Bow) chapter to lure the Nomads away and the idiots took the bait like the pedos you see on any "To Catch a Predator" segment. Seeing as how we don't care about the combat rank, Douglas and Barth distracting Nomads would be of more help than that feisty little Shaman you babied just to end up in a constant danger zone.

Beats whatever the hell Rei's doing in Sacae.

Oh and here's your

Edited by Speedwagon
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Ray is already stomping her in terms of Atk. 2 more base Atk and stronger tomes. Cecilia has more accurate tomes, but Ray also has 10 more Hit anyways. Cecilia has more AS, but I can't think of anything she doubles that he won't.

Aircalibur says hi. Every chapter has wyverns until 16.

Not that I think Cecilia > Ray.

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