Integ's gon' rank the characters!

[Integrity]

I'm open to debate on all points, since this sub-forum needs a nexus of drama anyway.

Ten-point scale, WITH A TWIST! I'm ranking the characters in REVERSE ORDER. He who shows up last, gets ranked FIRST. I'll probably stop this debacle once I stop caring about later units (oh, wait, that's most of them) but for now that's the plan. That means Syrene is up first. I'm doing this because then I get to tread untrodden ground, then move on to the well known characters once everybody forgets about them, keeping the list FRESH!

This list is governed roughly one-third by fact and two-thirds by raw white male bias. I'm good like that.

I'm toughening up. Units are dropping more now than they should.

Starting now, you probably WILL be offended by this list.

I NEED YOU, THE COMMUNITY, TO RATE NATASHA WITH ME

NATASHA'S business is done here! The community has spoken: 7.0. SPOILER ALERT: Moulder is probably going to get a 7.5.

As of July 19th, 2010, I actually fixed all the scores in the posts. That wraps this up.

13.5: Cormina

10.: Marisa

!10 : Seth

9.5 : Ephraim, Franz

9.0 : Cormag, Gerik

8.5 : Kyle, Lute, Colm

8.0 : Tana, Duessel, Artur

7.5 : Saleh, Forde, Ross, Moulder, Eirika

7.0 : JHOSUA, Natasha, Vanessa

6.5 : Innes, Garcia

6.0 :

5.5 : Neimi

5.0 : L'Arachel

4.5 :

4.0 : Gilliam

3.5 : Syrene

3.0 : Knoll, Dozla

2.5 : Rennac

2.0 : Ewan

1.5 : Amelia

1.0 :

Edited July 19, 2010 by Integrity

[Integrity]

(I know this is a double post, but it's cleaner looking than putting the first synopsis in the OP. Oh well. Maybe one of you will post a cease and desist order before I finish typing and it won't actually be a double post and this awesome run-on sentence will be totally pointless. I won't edit this out if you do, just for lulz.)

SYRENE

Of course, I start by giving myself an interesting task. Syrene, eh? I want to say good things about Syrene, I really do, but I can't find many of them.

Syrene joins in a relatively (for the game, that is) difficult chapter, right before the most freakin' mecha XP farm in the history of the games, which is in turn followed by an actual difficult chapter where she won't see much use without some serious babying and the ...what's it called in this game? Fili Shield? The arrow-death-preventey thing. Topping her problems off, you have to get to her to recruit her, protect those stupid stupid civilians, and you've already got three of the best fliers in the entire history of ever. And as compared to Tana, who gets half the game to be leveled and loved, and Vanessa who's around forever you're looking at a tiny 4-chapter window of use - which means if you discount the below she gets very few supports.

Of course, there's always the tower to help make her better, but even that can't really help too much. Pretending for a moment we grind the everloving crap out of it, get Syrene 20/20, she STILL loses in almost every stat to her little sister V. She loses even harder in some areas and her only advantage - RES - is almost negated when we compare her to Tana, assuming all three are Falcoknights. The tower, incidentally, can help you farm all the supports you ever wanted - except all her supports have better options except *arguably* Vanessa. V at least gets to support a fellow flier, which can prove useful - but you're eschewing an A support for V for 17 chapters to get that done and is it really worth it for a relatively fast Anima/Lightning? Nope.

Syrene isn't without worth, at least. She enables the TRIANGLE ATTACK!!!, and I'm absolutely enamored of Awesome But Impractical shit like that. On the other hand, if the best thing I can say about a character is "she's the worst in her league, but at least she lets others do the TRIANGLE ATTACK!!!...yeah. At least she can marry Gilliam in the end, and Gilliam is fucking awesome. That gives her an extra point.

Would be 2.5 for the TRIANGLE ATTACK!!!, but I'm bumping her for marrying Gilliam.

3.5

Edited March 29, 2010 by Integrity

[Anouleth]

I think you could have found better reasoning for Syrene's score.

Syrene's best stats are her decent speed and res, but the best part of her is flying. She joins right before C18, which is 'field every flyer you own', and she can help ferry people in C20. While she can't wall in C19 due to the number of enemies with bows (and even regular enemies scare her), she can run off to the right and deal the the Fighters/Druid, then Key the chests. She can supplement her offense with Killing Edges in the chapter she joins in for 21ATK/15AS/113HIT/36CRIT, which is enough to 1-round most soft targets, and after a few levels can switch to Killer Lances for increased attack but reduced speed.

While she's very mediocre in her chapters, she's never so bad that you wouldn't actually field her - she's better than most in C18 due to flight, you have plenty of slots in C19, and she can ferry people around in C20 and help manage the Mogall swarm. It's a shame she joins too late to form any supports, since they'd give her a good crit/avo boost and help her flagging offense/durability.

Also, she actually has very little desire for the Fili Shield. It doesn't help her in C17 or C18, C19 she shouldn't be on the frontlines anyway, and C20 she can generally avoid the few archers on the map.

[Integrity]

Oh, the predominant reasoning was Triangle Attack. Her stats are *decent* but not great. She's certainly not hurting you to bring along, she's just not helping you as much as another flier would. 5.0 was the score regardless of the junk I spewed about Gilliam and Triangle Attacking, anyway.

The Fili Shield, now, is my point. There are too many archers in 19 for her to be on the front without it - and she doesn't have the durability to survive WITH it generally, so her XP generation is really limited to 18 and 20/F discounting the tower.

Plus, I'm adjusting several scores downwards because otherwise, quite frankly, I'd not use anything less than 4 for this game.

EDIT: I'll follow up and get on with the rankings!

MYRRH

I've never used Myrrh.

KNOLL

Oh, Knoll, you're hilarious. Joining in Chapter 15 with a luck of 0 and a luck growth of 20%, Knoll is incredibly easy to crit without the Hoplon Guard. He's also level 10/-- when you probably have promoted magicians you already use a lot, and has three average speed supports that he supplements with the only instance of the Dark affinity in this game. Black Bomb tells me Rennac has the Dark affinity too and he's right. :(

On the upshot of all this, Knoll can use dark magic, which nobody else can except Ewan. Knoll can also promote to Summoner, which is kinda cool I guess. Knoll's name also rhymes with roll, which is awesome. Here:

:KnollRoll:

With dark magic comes Nosferatu, though, which is pretty cool, and Luna which was made significantly less awesome after Canas used it to do unspeakable things to the Fire Dragon. Thus, as a result of Canas, Knoll loses much of his usefulness beyond a funny name and a distinct lack of personality, unless Lute is involved. Knoll also has no paired endings with anybody, which nets him 0/10 points in my book but I'm not being too biased there.

So why Knoll? He can early-promote to a Summoner to ...do some things with 1hp Phantoms? He can promote to Druid and ...do less good with Anima than any of our Sages? All Knoll really has going for him right now is Dark magic, and that's if you didn't play with Ewan, which I often don't anyway because Anima is the best magic. Besides the LCK, Knoll actually has above-average growths including a whopping 70% HP. It's balanced by a 10% DEF growth in a game where ALL the other, cooler mages have 15%, so that's sad.

Poor Knoll. He's ...Knoll.

I'll go with 6.5, but this is really up for grabs.

Black Bomb and Anouleth and...uh, well, everybody have convinced me I'm overrating poor Knoll.

4.5

2.0 lol

3.0

EDIT: Apparently I actually underrated Knoll.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Integrity

[Tables]

Rennac has a Dark affinity too, actually.

Plus how the heck is Knoll getting 6.5? That means he's above average (assuming 5/10 is average), and he has two choices: Being a Summoner and basically locked to Staves (since dark magic is so awful), but summoning, which can be useful, or become a Druid, use Anima and be constantly behind but at least doing some damage. Knoll is horrible, mainly because he's the dark magic user with bad speed, late joining and mediocre growths.

Finally, his supports are some of the slowest in the game (Duessel is the 2nd slowest support, Lute is 11th slowest and Natasha, his fastest support, is 24th slowest - out of 83 supports in the game), and he has very few options anyway.

[Integrity]

As I said, up for grabs. You're right on Rennac btw, gonna amend that in a minute.

Per the supports, I was remembering it under the FE7 mindset, where 2 is the norm and 1 isn't uncommon. That, too, was my bad.

To the meat of this, Knoll IS above-average if he can survive chapter 15, just as a utility character. He uses Dark magic, which nobody else except Ewan does - the obvious benefit is the WTA over Anima but I'm pretty sure that there isn't a single enemy in FE8 that uses Anima so whatever. I'm not sure how dark magic is awful, though. The only thing differentiating it from FE7 dark magic is Luna was severely hit, and Knoll is not God Canas. Flux is still the second-greatest tome in the game overall behind Thunder, Knoll gets Nosferatu later, which weighs him down a lot (Druid means -6 to AS, Body Ring can take that down to 4). Summoner, on the other hand, means that Knoll has some vague purpose as a utility unit, which Syrene never gains.

[dondon151]

Knoll is not above average with respect to the other characters in the game.

[Anouleth]

Syrene flies. So she's auto-winning C18 and C20, and possibly C17 if it weren't for the Wyverns that rape her. She's also okay in C19 just as an extra hand to run around opening chests. She can just head south-east straight away, kill the Fighters and the Druid, then go open the chests. What the hell is Knoll going to do? Equip Nosferatu, get cut down to 7AS or something stupid, and get doubled and die? Maybe heal someone, except that he's also your worst healer since he only has E Staves so the only thing he can use is Heal for 22 or something.

Flux may be good as magic goes, but Knoll still sucks. Awful durability and never doubles anything. At least Syrene flies and can kill a soft target with a Killing Edge.

[Junkhead]

I'm pretty sure that there isn't a single enemy in FE8 that uses Anima so whatever.

There are quite a few anima users, there are very few earlygame, then some more later on, you will encounter lots of Mage Knights during Chapter 19.

I'm not sure how dark magic is awful, though. The only thing differentiating it from FE7 dark magic is Luna was severely hit, and Knoll is not God Canas.

It's "awful" because the decrease of Mt in exchange for nothing (Maybe less Wt wouldn't bother?), the reputation of dark magic is having high Mt, but it's just slightly above anima in FE8. He's better off with Anima IMO, he only looses 2 AS with an Elfire, then again, Moulder is easily better with it as a Sage, I doubt Knoll will double many enemies.

And Canas' performance with Luna is overrated, he's only useful with it by endgame destroying Valkyries, but nothing else others can't do really, Athos easily destroys his performance against the Fire Dragon.

Flux is still the second-greatest tome in the game overall behind Thunder, Knoll gets Nosferatu later, which weighs him down a lot (Druid means -6 to AS, Body Ring can take that down to 4). Summoner, on the other hand, means that Knoll has some vague purpose as a utility unit, which Syrene never gains.

He's better as a Summoner because of that utility. But I agree with Black Bomb, you probably overrated him, him promoting early isn't exactly a good thing, he isn't Canas, Canas could promote with a few level gains and gain 4 AS upon promotion, since FE7 enemies are slow, he actually doubles easily.

[Integrity]

Hm. I read your arguments, and I conform to them. I'll drop Knoll to a solid 4.5.

EDIT: One problem I acknowledge is I overrate units who can fill niches nobody else does. For Dark/Summoning, Knoll is the only unit except Ewan who has other, possibly better options. On the other hand, f'example Garcia would be penalized for me having never brought him to the end of the game, but actually because past the early stages he doesn't axe as well as a GK or Gilliam.

EDIT2: OHSHIT, I'm going to have an impromptu contest now, and by that I mean you guys have roughly three posts to convince me. Assume Eirika and do Duessel next, or assume Ephraim and do Innes next, since I'm going in reverse recruitment order?

EDIT3: Scratch that. I'll go by earliest possible recruitment. Rennac's next! We're getting into units I know better, and can more less informed statements about. Stay tuned, kids.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Integrity

[Junkhead]

Rennac is like FE8's Heather, crappy Atk and thief utility.

[Integrity]

RENNAC

I ALWAYS think this poor fucker's name is backwards for some reason. Like it's supposed to be Connor, or Canner, but somebody put it backwards to be funny. Or maybe like there's something missing on the end. HIS NAME DOESN'T LOOK RIGHT RRRRGH.

Rennac is lazy, greedy, and an exceptional fighter.

Except actually, he's lazy greedy and pretty shitty at fighting. The first thing Rennac does to endear himself to us is RUN AWAY and THROW UNITS TO BLOCK US while he STEALS TREASURE and IS A DOUCHE. Now, you say, Integrity you moron, Colm does the same thing - well yes, except you can recruit him on turn 1 and he doesn't require a stupid roundabout method of recruitment/lure you right by a druid with a berzerk staff. To top it off, we have to run him down with the Lady L'Arachel, our Troubadour, unless we want to pay 10k (I don't care how much he pretends to discount it.) to recruit him with a unit with some durability. So Rennac is actually causing problems for us BEFORE we recuit him. Stay classy.

Knoll's supports are slow? Rennac matches him almost point-for-point, and then gives us the glorious 5 +1 that's /Tethys. Rennac is such a likable fellow that he has the only +1 support IN FE8. That means that, by my stupid calculationscanonically, Rennac is about as well-loved as Serra, and let's leave that RIGHT there shall we.

Rennac has a saving grace - he can pick locks without lockpicks. This is, quite frankly, astounding, and I like to imagine he shoves his fingers into the lock and prods it open and maybe hurts himself doing it. The flipside of this is Colm can do it too if you promote him to Rogue. The flipside of the flipside is Colm can promote to Assassin and if you're REALLY hurting for lockpicks you can deploy Rennac maybe? Essentially, the only way Rennac is useful is if Colm promoted to Assassin which, amusingly, hurts his stats. He trades 1 SKL for 1 HP and Silencer. Silencer isn't a stat, it's a skill. See what I did there? Even if you promote Colm to Assassin, you can still use the lockpicks you probably stole from other thieves because you're a dick. On the other hand, 16 and 19 have the only chests left in the game bar the two in F, and you can definitely afford one deployment slot for Rennac in those.

To summarize: he has uses, sorta, but w/e.

2.5

EDIT: Fix't.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Integrity

[Junkhead]

Even if you promote Colm to Assassin, you can still use the lockpicks you probably stole from other thieves because you're a dick.

More like those who didn't steal them are dicks, they later whine Assasins don't have the Pick skill. And besides, they're thieves, there's nothing wrong with stealing from them.

On the other hand, 16 and 19 have the only chests left in the game bar the two in F, and you can definitely afford one deployment slot for Rennac in those.

God, why doesn't anyone ever bother using this logic? 15 uses of a lockpick is probably all you need, there's also chest keys at your disposal.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Soul

[Salad Utensil]

Rennac also doesn't have any paired endings either, and Assassin loses the ability to steal for what it is worth so Rennac may have some use if Colm promotes to Assassin

There is a stealable guiding ring in chapter 15 and chapter 19 has a goddess icon and chapter 17 has a dragon shield. Also if Colm is promoted to Assassin by chapter 15, who is going to get those items you have to find in the sand (without wasting like 123132139 turns praying for that Luck+1% chance to find the item)?

Edited March 30, 2010 by Brighton

[Junkhead]

Rennac is quite useful for deploying on Chapter 15 indeed, you can divide him and Colm to go different ways.

[Rewjeo]

Knoll<Rennac<Syrene? Whut? Knoll and Rennac should get the same score and Syrene should get, like, 1.0 or 1.5.

Also, Knoll's durability is amazing. It's so good he can make your entire team invincible.

[Junkhead]

As previously mentioned, Rennac and Syrene have their (Small, but it's something) utility points, Knoll doesn't, not when Integ mentioned there are other magic users that are probably promoted and with higher offense.

Oh yeah, Knoll has Phantoms...which isn't exactly very useful when you are going to have to wait 'til lvl 20 to promote him.

[_____]

Oh yeah, Knoll has Phantoms...which isn't exactly very useful when you are going to have to wait 'til lvl 20 to promote him.

I didn't realize that you couldn't promote at level 10 in this game.

Oh, wait a second...

[Junkhead]

I didn't realize that you couldn't promote at level 10 in this game.

Oh, wait a second...

He isn't Canas, Canas could promote with a few level gains and gain 4 AS upon promotion, since FE7 enemies are slow, he actually doubles easily.

Knoll's frailty doesn't help.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Knoll's frailty doesn't help.

You said:

Oh yeah, Knoll has Phantoms...which isn't exactly very useful when you are going to have to wait 'til lvl 20 to promote him.

You don't have to give a damn about his stats to put his phantoms to use. I always promote Knoll the second the he has a Guiding Ring in his inventory just for the Phantoms.

[Junkhead]

It isn't all that useful, he got the score he deserved.

[Jaybee]

Knoll can promote on Turn 3 IIRC if he grabs the Mster Seal in the Desert, assuming Eirika route is taken.

Also, Triangle Attack is kinda redundant since most units get murdered by things like Duessel or Seth anyway.

[Anouleth]

Syrene is massively underrated. She's almost guaranteed deployment in C18 because she flies and getting to the eggs quickly is your highest priority, she can be deployed in C19 since you have a million slots (she can travel southwest, kill Fighters/Druid there then go open the chests while better people go for Riev), she can be deployed in C20 because you want to ferry Eirika/Ephraim over to the boss. Deploying Syrene is by far better than deploying Knoll or Rennac in those chapters.

I'm also getting a little bit tired of people mentioning Triangle Attack as if it's the only thing she has going for her, since the Triangle Attack isn't really worth the effort of promoting Tana and Vanessa into Falcoknights instead of Wyvern Knights.

I think all the scores should be a little bit lower. Rennac/Syrene/Knoll are amongst the most useless characters in the game, and they're getting 4s and 5s?

Edited March 30, 2010 by Anouleth

[Rewjeo]

This game chucks so many promo items at you that Knoll promoting has virtually no cost. From then on, he has phantoms. That means he has like 7-8 range attack or something like that as well as okay offense. Phantoms are also highest priority on enemy phase so he can always guarantee an extra hit and can often have a good chance at more. He can also save someone who's in danger of being killed on EP with a phantom.

Err, besides CON, Falcoknight is better than Wyvern Knight. Also, her MOV isn't THAT special. A list of units that could have high MOV: Seth, Franz, Kyle, Forde, Eirika, Ephraim, Lute, L'arachel, Natasha, Ewan, Amelia, Tana, Vanessa, Cormag. Probably forgot someone, too.

[Integrity]

I think all the scores should be a little bit lower. Rennac/Syrene/Knoll are amongst the most useless characters in the game, and they're getting 4s and 5s?

Wat? I long since came to the same conclusion and dropped everybody. Nobody even has a 4 yet.

WRT Syrene and the TRIANGLE ATTACK!!!, you can deploy her as another flier, yes, but do you need one? You've got Vanessa, Tana, and Cormag already, all of whom are significantly better, so the only thing Syrene really brings is another (fourth) flier, or the TRIANGLE ATTACK!!!, unless you didn't bother to raise/let one of the other three die, in which case Syrene has the same use as, say, Renault - you get a pre-promote flier for the end of the game in case all the rest of yours died.

EDIT: We have a dilemma, now. Nobody's earliest recruitment is Chapter 13, so we move on to Chapter 12.

SALEH or EWAN, SF?

Edited March 30, 2010 by Integrity