Soul's FE7 character rating topic.

[Junkhead]

So why is Lucius above Ninian?

Ninian relies on being in the middle of the field much more often, meaning she is usually in risk of getting killed. Not that her Avo is bad, but you never know when the RNG can backfire.

[dondon151]

Ninian is more useful than Lucius. This is almost not an opinion, but a fact. If you're using an argument of player stupidity to neutralize Ninian's utility, there is something wrong with your rating.

[Anouleth]

So because the player might be smart enough to protect Lucius but not smart enough to protect Ninian, she gets a lower rating? Even though it's the other way round - Ninian can dance people who fall behind, or a thief or a healer, whereas Lucius has to expose himself to enemies in order to be useful?

[Junkhead]

Ninian is more useful than Lucius. This is almost not an opinion, but a fact. If you're using an argument of player stupidity to neutralize Ninian's utility, there is something wrong with your rating.

So because the player might be smart enough to protect Lucius but not smart enough to protect Ninian, she gets a lower rating? Even though it's the other way round - Ninian can dance people who fall behind, or a thief or a healer, whereas Lucius has to expose himself to enemies in order to be useful?

Yes, I know. I didn't really consider neither of those statements- I was indeed having my doubts on where to place Ninian, I'm not saying her utility should be deluded because of her needed to be protected, even if a little.

I'll reverse their scores.

[frat_tastic]

Why Lucius is so high in the first place still baffles me. He's like, 1.5 points ahead of Erk, and I'm not exactly sure hot that happened.

[Narga_Rocks]

Integrity is implying that Rath is capable of consistently getting player phase kills by himself.

He's locked to bows, but Rath is still essentially a guaranteed PP kill every turn if you're willing to feed it to him. It's valuable XP that could have gone on Kent/Matthew/Erk gone, but he's certainly worth an 8 - especially since if you don't use Wil nobody's using his freebie bow anyway.

Um, no he's not. I was always under the impression that "feeding" meant you are arranging for a unit to get a mooch kill. And doing it every turn would be giving him mooch kills every turn. If there is a different use of "feed" for Fire Emblem of which I am not aware then I apologize.

[Mekkah]

Lucius doesn't even start out ORKOing. AFAIK he doesn't ORKO anything in LHM at base...maybe Soldiers. In HHM he faces critkill chances from everything and he's still not a reliable ORKOer until I guess an early promotion. Okay offense + shitty defense + ??? = profit?

[Aquilae]

Lucius ORKOs some soldiers at base in LHM (he fails to ORKO the higher HP ones IIRC), and that's it. Erk beats Lucius in evasion and durability (unless Erk is weighed down), and also has a level lead due to joining earlier.

[BBM]

Also, Lucius comes around the time that the Cavs are really picking up. They're probably not ORKOing when Erk joins, but probably are when Lucius does. So they're just rushing ahead, and aren't leaving behind things to finish off.

Then he comes back in HHM in Chapter 17, by the time the chapter's mostly over. I'm sure as hell not picking him as part of my 6 man team in Port of Badon to fight the strong, high HP Pirates. In 18, there's lots of Shamans on the left side, but there's lots of Mercs on the right who'll cross over and 2RKO him. If he didn't get enough levels, he probably won't ORKO the Shamans either. Most of the physical units probably take less damage from the Shamans relative to their health than Lucius does from the Mercs relative to his. Chapter 19 is a FoW chapter with PKs flying in from all over the place and Cavaliers and Pirates. He probably gets 2RKOd by everything on this map, and is failing to ORKO them either. Not many people are ORKOing, but they can at least take more hits before they go down. Now, in Chapter 20, whether or not you gave him levels in LM, he's certainly falling behind.

This is probably why the only non-healer magical unit I use regularly is Pent.

[Junkhead]

Why Lucius is so high in the first place still baffles me. He's like, 1.5 points ahead of Erk, and I'm not exactly sure hot that happened.

Most people usually overlook it, but just because Erk uses Anima, and has some slight avaibility over Lucius means he's "better". The avaibility hardly means something when he's not doubling until high-leveled and requires a Thunder tome for decent offense. The only use he has is reliably 1RKO the first Knight blocking the entrance of Ch 17, which would allow Hector and the Cavs to swing in a little faster. And that's about it, he's pretty mediocre, Priscilla's support doesn't help him very much either.

So the level lead is slight, he won't even get above Lucius in leveling if we go by it effeciently.

Canas has even better combat and durability over him, which would actually make him better, considering he shares about the same avaibility as HHM!Lucius. Again, slight avaibility hardly means anything when you're potshotting. Also, the fact Lucius heals amazingly means something.

Lucius doesn't even start out ORKOing. AFAIK he doesn't ORKO anything in LHM at base...maybe Soldiers. In HHM he faces critkill chances from everything and he's still not a reliable ORKOer until I guess an early promotion. Okay offense + shitty defense + ??? = profit?

Of course he does, he can kill every enemy excluding Mages and Shamans (Which he's borderline of doing so).

I'm assuming he's trained by HHM, those chances of facing critikills are pretty low, unless anyone's silly enough as to put him one-ranging Myrmidons or Mercenaries. The rest of his Critical Avoidance problem is solved with Raven's support or a Godess Icon, which he's another good candidate for.

My criteria was also his good staff utility, it's just not worth deploying Serra any longer once Lucius promotes, it'd be another wasted slot, and not to mention she had godawful speed when it comes to supports. The only benefit I see in her is the use of a Psysic, a staff that you don't until midgame, then again, there's Priscilla.

Also, Lucius comes around the time that the Cavs are really picking up. They're probably not ORKOing when Erk joins, but probably are when Lucius does. So they're just rushing ahead, and aren't leaving behind things to finish off.

Why should that matter? It's Lucius whom I'm talking about, and I wasn't saying he is more useful than Kent and Sain. Lucius' usefulness only relies on offense, it's not like he's missing on many enemies, he's only missing on Mercenaries, Myrmidons and some Cavaliers, which is actually having around the same offense and Kent and Sain, seeing as Brigands start being less common after Chapter 5, meaning they won't get to double enemies that aren't LOLdiers.

Like I said, Lucius' utility doesn't rely on being in the middle of the field, he's much more reliable than other mages.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Soul

[Aquilae]

Erk has better Speed than almost every unit except the Myrms and Pegasus Knights. Unless you're weighing him down with Elfire, Erk doubles a fair portion of the game, basically everything except Nomads / Mercs / Myrms. Lucius' Speed lead is only marginal, 2 points at best due to Erk losing AS from Thunder, and Erk does catch up after promotion.

Also, Sain and Kent were doubling enemies right up till the end of LHM. You're severely overestimating enemy AS, when it is quite low to begin with, even Marcus can still be useful in endgame when he has terrible speed compared to other units.

[Junkhead]

Erk has better Speed than almost every unit except the Myrms and Pegasus Knights. Unless you're weighing him down with Elfire, Erk doubles a fair portion of the game, basically everything except Nomads / Mercs / Myrms. Lucius' Speed lead is only marginal, 2 points at best due to Erk losing AS from Thunder, and Erk does catch up after promotion.

Except he actually is weighted down until the first Fire tome in HHM arrives, in exchange, his offense it just mediocre. The enemies Erk gets to doubled and 1RKO are Knights and Steel Bow!Archers by the Dread Isle, then some peggies, who he may double but fails to 1RKO. So yeah, actually having to catch up by a 20/0 promotion ain't making him any better.

Also, Sain and Kent were doubling enemies right up till the end of LHM. You're severely overestimating enemy AS, when it is quite low to begin with, even Marcus can still be useful in endgame when he has terrible speed compared to other units.

Yeah, enemies excluding the ones I mentioned, you know, since they actually need to be at a decent level to start doubling Brigands, and when they start doubling Brigands start diminishing their numbers.

Cavaliers have at least 5 AS, but the most common ones bear 6 AS. And they aren't doubling Mercs or Myrmidons, only LOLdiers, and Archers from the late LHM enemies, the Archers being pretty uncommon, they have in around 4 AS at later chapters.

Which brings up the conclusion: Erk is not doubling until he hits in between 8 & 9 AS.

[dondon151]

Um, no he's not. I was always under the impression that "feeding" meant you are arranging for a unit to get a mooch kill. And doing it every turn would be giving him mooch kills every turn. If there is a different use of "feed" for Fire Emblem of which I am not aware then I apologize.

The meaning I got from that statement is that one must feed Rath kills (i.e. EXP) in order for him to reach a point where he guarantees a player phase kill every turn. Otherwise, Integrity's statement would have been greatly redundant - any unit can mooch a kill off player phase, so it would make no sense that if Rath does so, he deserves a high score.

[Aquilae]

Except he actually is weighted down until the first Fire tome in HHM arrives, in exchange, his offense it just mediocre. The enemies Erk gets to doubled and 1RKO are Knights and Steel Bow!Archers by the Dread Isle, then some peggies, who he may double but fails to 1RKO. So yeah, actually having to catch up by a 20/0 promotion ain't making him any better.

Uh... you can buy Fire tomes in Chapter 14, it isn't much of a detour if you're recruiting Priscilla. Lucius is also doubling but not ORKOing when he is recruited, unless you fed tons of EXP to him in Lyn Mode, so I don't see why Luscious gets a break but Erk doesn't. Most units aren't consistently ORKOing at that point, only Marcus can ORKO the majority of enemies. Erk's performance relative to the others when he joins is great, since he does good damage at range and can help set up kills for weaker characters, or finish off stuff that Lowen / Oswin have left alive.

[Mekkah]

Of course he does, he can kill every enemy excluding Mages and Shamans (Which he's borderline of doing so).

No bro, he doesn't. He has 11 base atk and 10 base AS. He fails to double Mercs/Myrms unless he gets like 2-3 spd procs. Brigands have anywhere between 20-22 hp and 0-1 res, so he'll only ORKO like half of that. He'll usually get archers and soldiers, though. Cavaliers he might need a level up.

But regardless of all that, this isn't worth of a high number relative to other units, since it really isn't hard to beat this levle of offense.

I'm assuming he's trained by HHM, those chances of facing critikills are pretty low, unless anyone's silly enough as to put him one-ranging Myrmidons or Mercenaries. The rest of his Critical Avoidance problem is solved with Raven's support or a Godess Icon, which he's another good candidate for.

But how do you train a guy like this efficiently when Kent/Sain will absorb 90% of the kills on their way to the throne while Lucius is getting 2HKOed? And even if you do, what difference does it make for him? In Ch18 (the first chapter he reasonably gets any action), I don't see Lucius any higher than 8/0.

8/0 Lucius: 20.8 hp, 10 mag, 12 spd, 1.5 def, 9 res, 3 luk

Lightning: 14 atk, 12 AS, 27 avo

Steel Sword: Mercs: 28 hp, 17 atk, 2 res, 12 AS

Lucius 3RKOs

Merc 2RKOs (with 3% crt)

Steel Bow Archers: 24 hp, 16 atk, 2 res, lol AS

Lucius (barely) ORKOs

Archer 2RKOs

Nosferatu Shaman: 21 hp, 17 atk, 8 res, lol AS

Lucius does 2x7, so a 3HKO (2RKO) not even taking into account healing

Shaman (barely) 3HKOs

Steel Lance Peg: 21 hp, 17 atk, 6 res, lol AS

Lucius 2RKOs

Peg 2RKOs (with 1% crt)

Take HHM Sain now for example. Without even looking at the stats, I can tell you right now he ORKOs every single one of these enemies other than the Merc which he 2HKOs. He'll likely get 2HKO'd by the Shaman unless he uses a Pure Water, but with somthing like 25 hp/7 def he can take an extra hit from all of these, and with 26 hp/8 def (more likely...this is 10/0 Sain) he'll take two extra on some of these occasions.

And yes, you have Sain lower than Lucius on HHM.

I'm assuming he's trained by HHM, those chances of facing critikills are pretty low, unless anyone's silly enough as to put him one-ranging Myrmidons or Mercenaries. The rest of his Critical Avoidance problem is solved with Raven's support or a Godess Icon, which he's another good candidate for.

Raven support takes forever on an efficient playthrough, and restricting Raven to Lucius' whereabouts isn't beneficial to begin with. Raven is the kind of guy you sometimes want to ferry to the other side of the map to saw into enemy faces. As for Goddess Icons, you do get two of those, but I'd rather sell them, never mind the fact there's some other 1% crit chances I might want to eliminate as well. Crit chances suck because it's instant end of the game if they do trigger.

[Integrity]

The meaning I got from that statement is that one must feed Rath kills (i.e. EXP) in order for him to reach a point where he guarantees a player phase kill every turn. Otherwise, Integrity's statement would have been greatly redundant - any unit can mooch a kill off player phase, so it would make no sense that if Rath does so, he deserves a high score.

Actually, my statement was asserting that Rath can generally 1RKO a single unit per turn on the PP without help EDIT: In LHM /EDIT. You were right initially.

This is untested and I haven't used him in a fair while because I never use him come the main game so I don't feed him the kills.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Integrity

[Junkhead]

Uh... you can buy Fire tomes in Chapter 14, it isn't much of a detour if you're recruiting Priscilla. Lucius is also doubling but not ORKOing when he is recruited, unless you fed tons of EXP to him in Lyn Mode, so I don't see why Luscious gets a break but Erk doesn't. Most units aren't consistently ORKOing at that point, only Marcus can ORKO the majority of enemies. Erk's performance relative to the others when he joins is great, since he does good damage at range and can help set up kills for weaker characters, or finish off stuff that Lowen / Oswin have left alive.

That doesn't prove how Erk is better than Lucius, I can still see him below Lucius when it comes to offense, even with a Thunder tome.

@Mekkah: Lucius obviously isn't going up against physical enemies on melee combat, said it before. He's useful when it comes to tanking against those Shamans, him, along with Canas should act as walls there thanks to their decent Res.

But I overlooked Kent and Sain's utility only for average early HHM combat, now that I really consider it, I'll get them higher.

Not getting Lucius lower though, I already argued about his durability problems and how can it be solved.

Also, Brigands hitting 22 HP/1 Res is at Lucius' starting chapter is rather unlikely, it doesn't happen often at all. Believe, I went through many resets to get that proven myself.

[frat_tastic]

Even if Erk and Lucius are at the same level at the same time when Lucius joins (highly unlikely in the first place), Lucius significantly better at offense. Any lead he has is marginal. Say both are level 6.

Erk w/Fire- 12 ATK, 9.5 AS

Erk w/Thunder- 15 ATK, 8.5 AS

Lucius w/Lightning- 12.8 ATK, 11.2 AS

Lucius w/Shine- 14.8 ATK, 9.5 AS

Factor in Erk is likely to be a higher level (probably around 8-9 or so), and that he'll get faster since he has a higher speed growth, and then add in Lucius's durability woes and I fail to see how he could have achieved a rating of 9, let alone be above Erk in the first place.

[Junkhead]

Even if Erk and Lucius are at the same level at the same time when Lucius joins (highly unlikely in the first place), Lucius significantly better at offense. Any lead he has is marginal. Say both are level 6.

It really isn't, you must give favoritism to him to get him to Lucius' level and/or higher, I actually do consider Kent and Sain getting most of the kills, and Erk has average Mov, he isn't getting very much at all.

Factor in Erk is likely to be a higher level (probably around 8-9 or so), and that he'll get faster since he has a higher speed growth, and then add in Lucius's durability woes and I fail to see how he could have achieved a rating of 9, let alone be above Erk in the first place.

Erk won't be able to double general enemies by LHM, he'll double Knights and lolArchers once he enters HHM, and actually 1RKO. Nothing like a 1RKO on other enemies is even garanteed until promotion, his offense sucks without Thunder, and they aren't spread everywhere either. An Elfire will get his Atk up, but lower his AS by 4.

The only considerable and valueble lead Erk has over Lucius is his concrete durability, Lucius' support with Raven isn't at all unviable, it has good a good speed rate.

[Life]

It really isn't, you must give favoritism to him to get him to Lucius' level and/or higher, I actually do consider Kent and Sain getting most of the kills, and Erk has average Mov, he isn't getting very much at all.

Bullshit. Erk starts at level 1 in HHM in Chapter 14 and can start gaining Exp as early as Turn 2. Lucius doesn't see action until 17x (he's lucky if he fights anything in 17) and starts at level 3. What favouritism?

Oh, you must mean LHM too! You mean where Erk starts at level 1 two chapters before Lucius appears? Not to mention that he still has a three chapter availability lead once HHM starts. Not to mention that Lucius has 1 Lightning tome for all of LHM so he's hitting level 6 max, even if you give him Heintz. So explain to me how Erk can't go from level 1 to 7 in something like 10 chapters.

[Junkhead]

Bullshit. Erk starts at level 1 in HHM in Chapter 14 and can start gaining Exp as early as Turn 2. Lucius doesn't see action until 17x (he's lucky if he fights anything in 17) and starts at level 3. What favouritism?

Oh, you must mean LHM too! You mean where Erk starts at level 1 two chapters before Lucius appears? Not to mention that he still has a three chapter availability lead once HHM starts. Not to mention that Lucius has 1 Lightning tome for all of LHM so he's hitting level 6 max, even if you give him Heintz. So explain to me how Erk can't go from level 1 to 7 in something like 10 chapters.

He's in the same situation as Lucius, he barely gets any action when he's exposed to a Myrmidon and a Brigand.

Then on LHM, he only has dibs to a few kills, going effeciently, Lyn and Florina also want kills in his joining chapter, so not only Kent & Sain. I destribute the Exp equally, I test it myself, I don't just theorize my statements.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Soul

[Aquilae]

Erk can kill the Knight that is near his starting position, he can snipe at Soldiers from the plateau and he can help out with the Myrmidon and Brigand reinforcements. Saying that he barely gets any action is a gross understatement, especially when Lucius only has one enemy near to him, and chances are Raven will kill it on the way to Lucius.

[BBM]

What I don't get is how it's completely justified to slow down Kent and Sain, who are now ORKOing everything, to allow Lucius to kill something, but unjustified to let Erk do so. The reason Erk's availability lead makes such a difference is that when he comes, Kent and Sain aren't ORKOing everything. So he can still kill stuff. Lucius comes by the time they are. And you've even got Rath to keep up with them and pick off the stuff they aren't.

Also, Soul, I think frat_tastic made a few errors in what he was trying to say. If his last sentence was correct, he was trying to say that Lucius is lower leveled than Erk, not the other way around as you seem to think.

Please, drop Lucius.

[Junkhead]

What I don't get is how it's completely justified to slow down Kent and Sain, who are now ORKOing everything, to allow Lucius to kill something, but unjustified to let Erk do so. The reason Erk's availability lead makes such a difference is that when he comes, Kent and Sain aren't ORKOing everything. So he can still kill stuff. Lucius comes by the time they are. And you've even got Rath to keep up with them and pick off the stuff they aren't.

Also, Soul, I think frat_tastic made a few errors in what he was trying to say. If his last sentence was correct, he was trying to say that Lucius is lower leveled than Erk, not the other way around as you seem to think.

Please, drop Lucius.

Bolded: I just bothered going through LHM efefciently, Erk's barely getting 45 Exp when Florina and Lyn want kills as well. And that's an equal for the three. Florina easily takes the Mercenary down to the east side of the map due to getting there very fast.

[spoiler= Playlog]Chapter 6: Wil weakens one of the Mercs, Erk kills it. Kent weakens the other Merc while Sain kills it, or the other way around. Then, once again, Florina easily takes dibs to the two Soldiers, both, the one blocking the door, and the one inside the room.

I'll assume Erk is lvl 1 with 80 Exp as of now.

Chapter 7: We can easily assume Erk is lvl 2, and with my very own testing, he wasn't even there yet- He got there through killing the first Archer. There is no level lead Erk has. Dorcas weakened the first Shaman, Lucius killed it. The only way I got Lucius to level up at least once at this chapter was by making him move again. Yeah, I think that's actually favoritism. =/

And trust me, the only thing Sain is 1RKO'ing as of now are Mages and Archers, Kent's doing the same with the inclusion of Brigands. Remember, Brigands start being uncommon as of now.

Chapter 7x: He comes useful during Ch 7x, where he actually gets to kill some Soldiers and Mages (Around two each). which got him to lvl 3. That's all he's seeing for now. Lucius is getting dibs on the first Brigand to the left side, there actually two more he gets to kill, you could easily send Serra and have her heal him. Then there's those laughable Mercs who 3RKO Lucius.

Chapter 8: There's hardly any good use to Erk here, you can just send Lucius to the east village knowing he'll 1RKO that Shaman and Mage. He actually does at base level.

Chapter 9: I find good use of him here by sending him up to the north and have him 1RKO LOLdiers. With all this, I got him to lvl 4 Exp 26.

Really, I didn't use favoritism on anyone here, I just centered myself on Lyndis and the cavs, and succesfully got Lyn to lvl 10, just as usually assumed. Heck, Lucius was about to end up being lvl 6 if I didn't let him die in Ch 9. I'm not into favoritism here.

Even if level lead, that's what you guys usually try to point out, but that's it, Lucius' offensive performance is easily better until Erk gains a few levels after promoting, his only advantage is concrete durability.

But I'll lower him alright, I've been overrating his HHM performance, as well as level assumptions (Didn't go through that before =P).

I'll set him to a 7.5, if that's actually okay. Not to mention this effecient run through made me reconsider alot of things, combat isn't all that is utility. I got HHM! Kent and Sain up.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Soul

[Junkhead]

Wallace

Or should I say Wall-ass? He tanks pretty amazingly in LHM, you could see how just about every enemy that isn't a magic user or a boss tinks him, even magic users have pitiful damage against his 2 Res, ha.

So his offense is pretty average by now when you have Lyn, Kent, Sain & Lucius 1RKO'ing and others like Erk or Dorcas are 2HKO'ing. He 2HKO's as well, he comes with solid Atk & Defence.

His true problem would have to be his horrid Mov, it's the worse in the team. It would actually get him higher if he were reclassed to say, a Fighter or a Mercenary. But no. His Mov is horrid. He is constantly slowed down by the terrain in the two chapters he goes through, and not to mention constant WTD...which isn't exactly bad when his Hit is decent and enemies hardly damage him.

A giant walks among you, yes, that happens if you are willing to spend a Knight Seal on him. It's actually a nice idea so he doesn't suck horribly by HHM and so his offense actually becomes reliable here at LHM. I give him one point for this, no one else should really be entitled to the Knight Seal, and giving it to a lvl 10 Sain is pretty unworthy when he's already doing great.

4

We may see him again in HHM, but that is, depending if you got your Lords to a maximum level of 50.

His durability is no longer special, even if you got to promote him, it only saves him from not being 1RKO'd by a SilverBow!Sniper from the east side of the map, the side he starts from. He'll just be silly enough as to want to take that Sniper on, he 3RKOs him, which is virtually impossible for him to defeat when he is 2RKO'd.

I guess he is rather useless here and just a filler to Oswin, an easily better unit. I could think of some use for him, which would be tanking Wyern Riders, again, it's pretty useless when he doesn't even have the Mov to be a wall, and they actually are able to damage him. You might as well think of him as a dilevery boy for the brand new Silver Lance he offers, that is, if you have him survive.

1

Edited June 30, 2010 by Soul